Tips For Flying in ICE

[LJPilot]

VAD can be found on WSI in the radar section. I think of it as looking above the radar station. For the most part, I ignore the wind vector. Its the best way to find cloud tops early in the morning when there are no pilot reports. For example, if the returns stop at 5000 ft, more than likely 5000 feet is the top of the clouds.

 

[idoitupsidedown]

And remember, after the hotplate has succumbed to the ice leaving you unable to see through the windscreen, follow the loc/GS down to the flare eyeball the edge lights on the left side of the runway as. Lights get closer, move to the right; lights get father away, move to the left. Don't get your hopes up for a greaser, just be happy your on the ground.

 

[Doc Holiday]

Avbug has some really great tips. Another option is to try it out for yourself. Sometimes you can find icing at altitude when the temp during the approach is above freezing (the ice will shed, and quickly). If you are flying an airplane that is appropriately equipped, consider trying to pick up some ice when you are positive that it won't stay with you during landing (i.e. you definitely have an out). Then you have the oppourtunity to learn about how that particular airplane accumulates ice and in the future, when it's 'for real', you have a better idea of what to expect.

That being said, ice is weird. Some of it will shed completely from a wing. Sometimes you blow the boots and none of it comes off. In my experience, though, the initial visual cues of ice accumulating are very similar regardless of how well the airplane can rid itself of that particular ice.

Again, what I said about trying to pick up ice is very conditional. You NEED to have a sure way out. You also need to be in a airplane that is certificated for flight in icing conditions. IMO, seeing it at altitude with many safe alternatives and creating a frame of reference is far superior to doing it for the first time on an approach when you are playing for keeps.

 

[N60OSU]

Same here, googled vad and didn't come up with much.

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Velocity Azimuth Display. It uses the doppler reading of the radar to determine the winds on each sweep. All that I have seen use the standard wind barb presentation. Works pretty well unless the winds are real calm or the air is very dry.

 

[Alin10123]

Hey guys,
Figured i'd do a search on this topic and this is the latest thread there was on icing. Instead of starting a whole new thread, i will just continue in this one. Just some questions on icing.

My instructor does not have much experience in icing. So i figured this is a good resource. Where do you draw the line at icing? what about for aircraft that aren't certified for known icing? What about aircraft with no deicing equipment at all?

For example, there was one day where i was departing from the georgia area, N of Atlanta. The temperature was maybe 7 or 8 degrees above freezing. The previous person that had flown the aircraft before me had flown it back from Charlotte NC. VFR. The conditions at my departure airport were about 3000-3500 feet clouds. I think the bottom layer was very broken. Barely visible to the eye. Anyways, the aircraft was a 172SP. The VFR pilot reported light icing on the wheels and wheel wells and that was it. No icing accumilation whatsoever on the aircraft at all. With that said, about an hour later i had a flight southbound heading to the central florida area. Weather in Florida was fine. it was departing the Atlanta area that was going to be a problem. However, with that said i talked to numerous instructors at the airport trying to get a 2nd opinion, i recall all of them said that if the previous pilot had only light icing on the wheels, then it should be ok to go. Especially since i was heading southbound towards warmer air within a short distance. The other reason being that there isn't exactly a shortage of places to land quickly within the departure area. They also said because it was only light icing and only on the wheels and not on the important parts of the aircraft, and worst case if i did encounter any icing, i would still have plenty of time to find an airport to land at. I also figured if the guy before me got in, i could get out. So of course i planned to go but i had to file IFR since there was low IMC around the macon area which is in S Georgia. By that time, the icing conditions would have been gone so i would have been in the clear anyways.

But when i called fss the briefer advised me to wait a little bit. He said there weren't many low level pireps, only ones at 8000 ft+. Most of the ones up there were reports of icing. So the only thing he could go on was the forecast. he said based on the forecast for right now, it looked like there was icing. Hence, i decided not to go and postponed the flight until later that night when it cleared up. But with that said, i was thinking. Where do you draw the line? Would it have been ok to try to go in that situation?

There was another pilot with me in the briefing room that was flying a pilatus. When the fss advisor advised him of the icing he said that he had a heated prop, deicing equip on the wings, and that he should be fine. So he went ahead and left. Of course i realize that it was an apples to oranges comparison.

But hypothetically lets say for example, If the pireps report light icing at lets say 4000 ft. Then the cloud tops are 5000 ft. Is it possible to climb through the icing altitudes to get to the safe altitudes at 5000? Given that it's light icing, i think a 172SP could make the climb without incident. Or... what if i had stayed at 3000 ft which was below the freezing level? That would have given me about 3 different "outs" at the airports within a few minutes of each other in the departure area.

Where exactly do you draw a line at "known icing"? What makes something "known icing?" Is it a pirep? or is it the forecast that determines it?

Also, what limits the aircraft? For example, lets take an aircraft like the columbia. It's got a heated prop and hotplates on the wings and stabilizer. So with that said, an aircraft with that much power and with those pieces of deicing equipment. In the hypothetical conditions that i just gave, would it have been safe to attempt to climb through the light icing? Or would it have been illegal?

Regarding "known icing certified". Does that just mean the aircraft is legal to fly into icing? or it can safely climb through icing?

thoughts?

 

[pilotpat]

My short/simple answer: If an aircraft is certified for "known icing" it can fly in cold clouds. If its not certified for "known icing" it cannot fly in cold clouds.

Remember, known icing conditions exist when visible moisture or high relative humidity combines with temperatures near or below freezing. Cloud = visible moisture. So, basically, if you fly through a cloud near or below freezing and you're not in a certified aircraft, then you're not legal. The FAR's don't allow you to experiment.

 

[Lead Sled]

My short/simple answer: If an aircraft is certified for "known icing" it can fly in cold clouds. If its not certified for "known icing" it cannot fly in cold clouds.

Remember, known icing conditions exist when visible moisture or high relative humidity combines with temperatures near or below freezing. Cloud = visible moisture. So, basically, if you fly through a cloud near or below freezing and you're not in a certified aircraft, then you're not legal. The FAR's don't allow you to experiment.

That's a pretty good "working" definition for now - I understand that the FAA is working to make things a little less nebulas than they are now. (Since when has a bureauracy ever been able to make things less nebulas?) It wasn't all that long ago that the FAA turned a blind eye towards those who operated non-certified aircraft in icing conditions as long as they were operating under part 91. This is no longer the case.

In aviation, there are some things that will kill you if you give them little or no heed - screwing around in ice and messing with t-storms are two of them. You need to understand that even known icing certificaton doesn't make you impervious to ice - it only buys you a little time to get out of it and all bets are off if you happen to stumble into severe icing. Aircraft performance permitting, that time is best used to either climb up through it; descend down through it or maybe shoot an approach. The one thing that known icing certification doesn't allow you to do safely is sit there in icing conditions and droan on...

You mentioned your instructor in your post and your profile indicates that you've got a couple of hundred hours. Let me recommend a couple of books to add to your aviation library - Weather Flying by Buck and Instrument Flying by Taylor. These are classics and will go a long way towards helping understand how to fly weather and instruments in the real world. However, there is one caveat - Weather Flying was written back in the day when the FAA turned their blind eye towards pilots flying non-certified airplanes in icing conditions. Pilotpat's comment applies today.

LS

 

[pilotpat]

Sled...my father in law bought me that Weather Flying book. Great read, especially when I was starting out and it still holds true in my flying today. And I'll also agree that even in my Falcon 20, just because I can turn on bleed heat for the wings and engines, does NOT mean I stay in those conditions. First thing I ask is how high the cover is and hope to break out around 10K or 12K, as the winter clouds aren't USUALLY as built up. That being said, I don't recall the report where I read it, but something about icing conditions usually are in a "confined" area 2-5,000' thick and like a 50 mile radius. Don't quote me on that, but have you seen anything like that written. I'm going to have to research some more, but I do have an online class I'm attending next week on NASA's Ground/Inflight Icing for recurrent.

I'm ALWAYS learning!

 

[AC560]

It wasn't all that long ago that the FAA turned a blind eye towards those who operated non-certified aircraft in icing conditions as long as they were operating under part 91. This is no longer the case.

The latest and greatest on known icing conditions.

 

[Alin10123]

My short/simple answer: If an aircraft is certified for "known icing" it can fly in cold clouds. If its not certified for "known icing" it cannot fly in cold clouds.

Remember, known icing conditions exist when visible moisture or high relative humidity combines with temperatures near or below freezing. Cloud = visible moisture. So, basically, if you fly through a cloud near or below freezing and you're not in a certified aircraft, then you're not legal. The FAR's don't allow you to experiment.

So is there an actual number that means near freezing? +/- 2 degrees? 4?

 

[pilotpat]

Excellent question Alin 'cuz I wouldn't know how to answer it. What is at or near freezing?? In my airplane, we turn engine heats on anytime our ram air temp is +10C or less in visible moisture.

 

[Morettis]

Anything +4*C or less in visable moisture is considered icing conditions

 

[Alin10123]

Anything +4*C or less in visable moisture is considered icing conditions

So that means if the forecast is for -6 degrees @ 3000 and IMC starts at 3000. Then i should be ok to go in a plane that is not approved for known icing?

 

[Geronimo4497]

Um, not if you are planning on going above 3000 ft. Do yourself a big favor and respect the icing conditions if present. A 172 or any other non-known ice airplane has no business flying around in those conditions. If you hear 'forecast icing conditions' you should not be out there. Period.

 

[pilotpat]

Um, not if you are planning on going above 3000 ft. Do yourself a big favor and respect the icing conditions if present. A 172 or any other non-known ice airplane has no business flying around in those conditions. If you hear 'forecast icing conditions' you should not be out there. Period.

Perfect point for aircraft limited by the AFM not to fly in icing conditions. Simple. Its kind of like when I was doing the CFII thing: I'd tell my students that the ticket didn't mean they go looking for clouds to fly through in the school's battered 172's. (off topic yet relevant: You get your Instrument Rating in a Katana C1, which isn't even approved for IMC, but you're still proficient, can you fly in clouds?) It means that they have simply proven to PTS standards that they can fly basic attitude instruments, hold, and shoot an approach...and maybe not all that good either, but at least to the standards. Just because you have a TKS system in your shiny new Mooney doesn't mean you blast into SLD's!

And Alin, regarding your earlier post, it doesn't matter if the cloud deck is only 500' thick. You would still be violating FAR's climbing through it if there's any kind of ice accretion in a non-certified aircraft. If the overcast is at 3000' but you're in the clear at 2000', even though there's icing in clouds and its -6C, then you would be fine. Until the precip begins...

 

[Alin10123]

And Alin, regarding your earlier post, it doesn't matter if the cloud deck is only 500' thick. You would still be violating FAR's climbing through it if there's any kind of ice accretion in a non-certified aircraft. If the overcast is at 3000' but you're in the clear at 2000', even though there's icing in clouds and its -6C, then you would be fine. Until the precip begins...

Ah i see. Is there a point to where the cloud layer would already be frozen beyond the ability to accumulate on your aircraft? For example, if -10 degrees means that the clouds are mostly tiny ice crystals instead of moisture, does that count as known icing? I'm not trying to see how far i can tread without actually breaking a FAR, but i just want to sort of get an idea of everything without actually intentionally flying into icing to try it.

 

[avbug]

-10 degrees is where you're going to pick up some of your heaviest icing.

It's best not to make assumptions with ice.

Ice, and supercooled liquid water, can be found down to -40 degrees.

I've picked up some surprisingly large amounts of ice in narrow layers before, with substantial amounts of liquid water and temperatures well below freezing.

Over the past few months, I managed to find areas in the desert that produced up to 3" of ice in several passes through the same area within a fairly narrow altitude band.

You might be surprised.

So that means if the forecast is for -6 degrees @ 3000 and IMC starts at 3000. Then i should be ok to go in a plane that is not approved for known icing?

Absolutely not.

Icing conditions can exist with temperatures above freezing. There is no hard fast rule as to when that number begins. Many companies will state five or ten degrees above freezing to initate anti ice in the presence of visible moisture, all you need to know is that if it's freezing conditions (plus a margin above that) and there's visible moisture, you need to stay out if your aircraft isn't certified for flight into known ice. Even if it is, conditions can exist that exceed the capabilities of your aircraft, and even if they don't exceed the capabilities of your aircraft, they may exceed your capabilities (your airplane when iced is a different airplane, and different rules apply to flying it).

Stay out of ice.

 

[pilotpat]

For example, if -10 degrees means that the clouds are mostly tiny ice crystals instead of moisture, does that count as known icing? I'm not trying to see how far i can tread without actually breaking a FAR, but i just want to sort of get an idea of everything without actually intentionally flying into icing to try it.

We treat all IMC flying at temps down to -30C as possible icing and keep the engine heats on. If we see ice forming on the windscreen, like on the great functioning windshield wipers :smash: ...then we'll turn on the wings as well. I had one excursion into "unforcast" ice in a 172. Never again. And I mean NEVER! Things went downhill real quick. Including my RPM's, Airspeed, and my stomach.

 

[414Flyer]

0c is more of a melting point for ice, then a freezing point for liquid water. Supercooled water can be found from below 0c all the way down to -40 in rare conditions as avbug mentioned.