time building

[avbug]

I agree time does not necessarily measure a pilots ability to perform, but how am I supposed to gain experience on a limited budget and lack of hours?

I believe we just covered this.

 

[epic!]

I believe we just covered this.

so am i not allowed to give my own opinion on things already discussed?

 

[epic!]

only productive responses from here on out please

 

[avbug]

What do you consider "productive?" You want someone to jump up and hand you a job, or are you permitting lesser responses, today?

How are you supposed to gain experience, you ask? How do you intend to gain "hours?"

 

[epic!]

You really can be irritating. No I am not looking for a hand out. I plan on paying my dues just as everyone else has. the point of this thread, before you completely ruined it, was to get some advice on what to do. People like you are the reason I have stopped posting here.

 

[avbug]

When you're done sounding off like a little snot nosed twit, you'll perhaps remember that you opened the thread to comment when you first posted. One day when you grow up enough you may realize you've received some invaluable counsel. The days of the 300 hour wonder falling into a regional cockpit have somewhat faded, and it's time to stand up and make your way like most of us have done over the years.

I agree time does not necessarily measure a pilots ability to perform, but how am I supposed to gain experience on a limited budget and lack of hours?

The hardest part of flying is paying for it. You're not done achieving your basic certification and ratings, yet. Make this a priority. You need to be qualified to find work. Presently, you are not.

Seek work banner towing. Trade A Plane has an advertisement right now for banner pilots. http://www.trade-a-plane.com/classi...AND&keyword2=&timelimit=0&tlvalue=2&maxads=25

Find a dropzone ( http://www.uspa.org/FindaDZ/tabid/184/Default.aspx). Go make some skydives, hang out with drop zones, join the US Parachute association (http://www.uspa.org), and get some work flying jumpers (http://diverdriver.com). Learn to pack and make some extra money. Jumpers trust pilots who jump.

Join Civil Air Patrol (http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/html/pilots.htm) and fly cadets, become a mission pilot flying disaster relief or search and rescue, and instruct at your local squadron. You'll enjoy discount aircraft use, and meet other pilots seekin to gain experience with whom you can split aircraft use and cut costs.

You'll need an instructor certificate, of course, to instruct...but this is a bullet you're really going to have to bite sooner or later, even if it means working two full time jobs to get it paid off in the meanwhile. The question you'll have to answer for yourself is how badly do you want this to happen. Aviation doesn't come to you: you go to it. If you've been doing contract work at your tender hours, you're still living in a dream world...time to wake up.

Traffic watch...large cities will often have jobs available somewhere in the news sector for a 172 pilot or other such job, looking for and reporting on traffic. Might just be your thing. Places like Aircom occasionaly hire traffic watch pilots in L.A. (http://www.aircommedia.com/site_index.htm), or Desert Peak Aviation in Scottsdale (AZ).

Have you bothered to read the FlightInfo page on building experinece or "building time?" You should. http://www.flightinfo.com/buildtime.htm

You're probably going to have to move to find work. This is aviation of course, and it means going where the work is.

The real question here is not what you can do, but how motivated you are to go do it. Your blew your lid over some well placed good counsel on a web board when you did nothing more than ask for a handout...you're certainly far from demonstrating you're ready to make your way. You're going to need a considerably thicker skin. You're going to need to realize just how underqualified you presently are, and you're going to have to use that realization to motivate yourself to work hard to get where you want to be.

I can tell you that when I wanted to tow banners, I built a banner towing operation, sold the advertising, made the banners, fixed the airplanes, etc...and I used someone else's aircraft to do it because I couldn't afford my own. When I wanted to instruct, I built a student base. You could be teaching ground school right now as a ground instructor if you can't afford to obtain your flight instructor certificate...this costs nearly nothing but requires effort on your part...effort you should have already put out rather than crying about it.

Once I built a student base, I began hard-selling flight training. I towed banners. I towed an airplane as a float through the longest parade in the country. I visited schools and put on presentations. I took apart an airplane and reassembled it inside a mall as a display to sell instruction and flights. I began doing local scenic flights. I couldn't get a job instructing; they weren't to be had, so I came up with my own students, brought busines to a school, and went to work as an aircraft mechanic in the shop, and doing their books, and fueling their aircraft at night, and doing anything else I could for work. I brought in business, and in so doing enabled myself to be useful, and used that to trade for airplane time and an instructor to get an instructor certificate...and began flight instructing. All this while working a full time day job answering phones, and a full time night job as a guard. Are you motivated, or did you take no thought beyond asking on a web board?

As a high school kid trying to find work doing agricultural spraying, I hit the roads and visited every ag operator I could, eventually getting hired...in a time when new hires didn't get to fly, but only mix chemical, drive and fix tractors, and drill grain. I worked into the business, and it was my first job out of high school...crop dusting. It was hard work. It still is today.

Now, if you want to cop an attitude and whine and cry, and whimper about stopping posting because you think people giving you good counsel are irritating you, then that's your choice. Crawl back under the blanket until you feel safe, then come out later and ask again. In the meantime, forget the good information you've received...and move on your way. If you keep asking, eventually you'll have it all layed out on a silver platter. Right?

 

[JAFI]

Epic, not every lesson or answer you receive is "happy" or welcome by you. It is however, a gift. It really does not matter if you like it or not. Some day that gift may be something you can use to benefit you or some one you care for. Because it is a gift just say thank you and store it away.

You asked a question that has been asked by young pilots over and over again. Good for you. Not every answer will fit you. That does not mean it is a bad answer. If you want to play with the big dogs, you need to take it like a big dog. You may not like Avbugs way of delivery. Does that mean on a very hot day you would refuse free Ice cream (a gift) because the car that brought it had a bad muffler that annoyed you? Would you rather have a car show up with a good muffler and no ice cream?

When I was in your shoes and there were more Instructors than students at the airports near me, I layed out a map and drew a circle of how far I would drive to a flight instructing job considering the condition of my just running car and the price of gas. I had enough gas money to drive to each airport to look at the operation and look for work. After hitting what I saw as my best (big) airport) options, I found work at a smaller airport and slowly built up a student base. There were no banner towing or ag operations near by. You need to go out and impress owners with your ability and work ethic. It is a small world, but to be known in your area you must go out and meet the operators.

 

[Tristar]

While I'll concede that Avbug's initial replies weren't quite what the OP was looking for, they contain a lot of good ideas. Along with JAFI's examples of the results of just building time instead of experience.

Epic - I understand your frustration, but hopefully Avbug's last post gives you some ideas of WHERE to go, re-read the initial posts and take to heart WHAT to do when you go there.

I'm surmising that you have had the misfortune of bad timing - you've spent a bunch of money getting your ratings and were expecting to quickly be able to move to a regional, as that has been the model of the last few years. Due to a combination of circumstances that model is changing, perhaps permanently by law. I understand your frustration - this wasn't what you signed up for.

At the same time, I also understand Avbug's irritation at your attitude (at least how it can be read online). The current industry isn't what most of us who've been in it for more than 10 years signed up for either. While there are many causes of the deterioration, a significant one is has been the availability of of low time pilots willing to work for nothing at the airline level. Pretty much everyone has scraped to get by and worked for next to nothing at some point, the difference was there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

Forgive me for jumping in and lecturing you, but you need to take Avbug's suggestions to heart. If you really want to make it in aviation, it's going to cost you beyond just the money spent getting your ratings. It's going to take several years of dedication, and busting your butt to gain both hours and experience. It's probably harder now than any time in recent history, so you have a tough row to hoe for the next couple of years.

The best advice I can give you is spend as much time as possible frequenting local airports. Meet poeple, make connections, grab opportunities. While in college, I spent a great deal of time hanging out at the airport. I made it a point to stop by, introduce myself and talk to a local corporate pilot who operated a turboprop single pilot. Obviously he knew I was a low time pilot looking for flight time and experience, but I apparently made a decent impression and flew several hundred hours over the next few years.

It may not be a turboprop in your case - fill in the blanks with whatever you find out there. The bottom line is it's going to take initiative, resourcefulness, and dedication on your part. I wish I could provide you with more suggestions or leads, but there are so many possible permutations that it's hard to offer much more than general suggestions to "try everything."

If you decide to stick it out, I wish you good luck.

 

[wrxpilot]

You both bring up good points. Yes I need hours in order to build experience...however the 40 hours or so I have in King Air have produced an invaluable amount of knowledge that I would not have experience, even if I were to fly 100 hours in 172. I agree time does not necessarily measure a pilots ability to perform, but how am I supposed to gain experience on a limited budget and lack of hours?

Well, all I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. When I had less than 500 hours, 100 hours of 172 time as a CFI was WAY more valuable as an experience builder than 40 hrs sitting in the right seat of a king air. I think Avbug has some pretty good points. Experience comes from being a PIC... The guy or girl making decisions. I sit right seat now, but at least I was able to spend over 1,000 hrs as a PIC in various other positions beforehand. That's not much, but at least it was enough to give me a chance at having a clue.

For building time - obtaining your CFI is not that expensive. Most of it is self study, so if you're a motivated person, you can accomplish the vast majority of CFI work yourself. Shouldn't take more than a couple thousand bucks to take care of your CFI ride, and then you can build all kinds of great experience that will stick with you forever.

 

[epic!]

When you're done sounding off like a little snot nosed twit, you'll perhaps remember that you opened the thread to comment when you first posted. One day when you grow up enough you may realize you've received some invaluable counsel. The days of the 300 hour wonder falling into a regional cockpit have somewhat faded, and it's time to stand up and make your way like most of us have done over the years.

The hardest part of flying is paying for it. You're not done achieving your basic certification and ratings, yet. Make this a priority. You need to be qualified to find work. Presently, you are not.

Seek work banner towing. Trade A Plane has an advertisement right now for banner pilots. http://www.trade-a-plane.com/classi...AND&keyword2=&timelimit=0&tlvalue=2&maxads=25

Find a dropzone ( http://www.uspa.org/FindaDZ/tabid/184/Default.aspx). Go make some skydives, hang out with drop zones, join the US Parachute association (http://www.uspa.org), and get some work flying jumpers (http://diverdriver.com). Learn to pack and make some extra money. Jumpers trust pilots who jump.

Join Civil Air Patrol (http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/html/pilots.htm) and fly cadets, become a mission pilot flying disaster relief or search and rescue, and instruct at your local squadron. You'll enjoy discount aircraft use, and meet other pilots seekin to gain experience with whom you can split aircraft use and cut costs.

You'll need an instructor certificate, of course, to instruct...but this is a bullet you're really going to have to bite sooner or later, even if it means working two full time jobs to get it paid off in the meanwhile. The question you'll have to answer for yourself is how badly do you want this to happen. Aviation doesn't come to you: you go to it. If you've been doing contract work at your tender hours, you're still living in a dream world...time to wake up.

Traffic watch...large cities will often have jobs available somewhere in the news sector for a 172 pilot or other such job, looking for and reporting on traffic. Might just be your thing. Places like Aircom occasionaly hire traffic watch pilots in L.A. (http://www.aircommedia.com/site_index.htm), or Desert Peak Aviation in Scottsdale (AZ).

Have you bothered to read the FlightInfo page on building experinece or "building time?" You should. http://www.flightinfo.com/buildtime.htm

You're probably going to have to move to find work. This is aviation of course, and it means going where the work is.

The real question here is not what you can do, but how motivated you are to go do it. Your blew your lid over some well placed good counsel on a web board when you did nothing more than ask for a handout...you're certainly far from demonstrating you're ready to make your way. You're going to need a considerably thicker skin. You're going to need to realize just how underqualified you presently are, and you're going to have to use that realization to motivate yourself to work hard to get where you want to be.

I can tell you that when I wanted to tow banners, I built a banner towing operation, sold the advertising, made the banners, fixed the airplanes, etc...and I used someone else's aircraft to do it because I couldn't afford my own. When I wanted to instruct, I built a student base. You could be teaching ground school right now as a ground instructor if you can't afford to obtain your flight instructor certificate...this costs nearly nothing but requires effort on your part...effort you should have already put out rather than crying about it.

Once I built a student base, I began hard-selling flight training. I towed banners. I towed an airplane as a float through the longest parade in the country. I visited schools and put on presentations. I took apart an airplane and reassembled it inside a mall as a display to sell instruction and flights. I began doing local scenic flights. I couldn't get a job instructing; they weren't to be had, so I came up with my own students, brought busines to a school, and went to work as an aircraft mechanic in the shop, and doing their books, and fueling their aircraft at night, and doing anything else I could for work. I brought in business, and in so doing enabled myself to be useful, and used that to trade for airplane time and an instructor to get an instructor certificate...and began flight instructing. All this while working a full time day job answering phones, and a full time night job as a guard. Are you motivated, or did you take no thought beyond asking on a web board?

As a high school kid trying to find work doing agricultural spraying, I hit the roads and visited every ag operator I could, eventually getting hired...in a time when new hires didn't get to fly, but only mix chemical, drive and fix tractors, and drill grain. I worked into the business, and it was my first job out of high school...crop dusting. It was hard work. It still is today.

Now, if you want to cop an attitude and whine and cry, and whimper about stopping posting because you think people giving you good counsel are irritating you, then that's your choice. Crawl back under the blanket until you feel safe, then come out later and ask again. In the meantime, forget the good information you've received...and move on your way. If you keep asking, eventually you'll have it all layed out on a silver platter. Right?

Now this is the kind of response I needed. Thank you. Im sorry for coming off with an attitude, but you have to admit your first few posts were less than helpful. I did not mean to belittle any of the advice you gave me, I was simply upset at how you presented it.