• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

time building

epic!

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Posts
702
Total Time
some
Any ideas on how to build some time? The plan was to go for a cfi but thats not financially feasible at the moment and all my contract flights have pretty much dried up. The only other things I can think of are banner tow, jump pilot, traffic watch jobs. etc am I missing any low time "entry level" jobs? thanks
 

brokeflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Posts
2,374
Total Time
1501
dont read too much into that...it's just avbug being avbug......irritating. Totally useless post that didnt even come close to answering that guys question.

Back to the origianl thread after avbug basiclly wrecked it. All of those methods are acceptable. Total time is total time, dont matter what it is. I would suggest going to a good school and getting a CFI though. You may be able to use it.

Good luck.
 

avbug

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2001
Posts
7,602
Total Time
n/a
Well he will build experience through building time.

No, he will not, because experience is not a byproduct of time. Flight hours mean nothing, while experience means everything.

If hours are all the poster wants, then falsify them. Write them in the logbook and be done with that, for that's all they're worth.

Don't build hours. Build experience.

Two pilots fly identical airplanes. One drones about for an hour and logs an hour of time. The other flies approaches, performs stalls and slow flight, and practices partial panel work. He also logs an hour of flight time. One has an hour of flight time, the other an hour of experience.

Don't build hours. Build experience.

I've met far too many 10,000 hour pilots who aren't worth their weight in salt...in fact it's quite probably accurate to say that 90% of the pilots out there aren't worth their weight. Lots of time builders, even in professional positions.

Hours are no measurement of a pilot's ability, attention to detail, judgement, or skill. How the pilot matures and develops professionally in response to his or her own experiences, however, are very telling.

Not long ago I was given the task of preparing several pilots for a utility assignment. Each was an experienced airline captain, and one owned several private aircraft (including a Mig, which he used to perform at airshows). The tasks which we performed were simple, but required some element of "multi-tasking." One pilot became airsick, and couldn't do simple turns about a point at low level in mountain turbulence. Another got lost. During an actual inflight emergency involving an explosive depressurization, one became catatonic and unresponsive. None of them had any skill in the use of the rudder. They were afraid of terrain. They were far too conservative for the job. While good individuals, and higher time pilots, their piloting time was not a good indicator of their appropriateness for the job. Lots of hours, not so much experience.

Another pilot was recommended for the job. I was told he was preparing to take a checkride with the FAA, and asked to give him an hour and a half of instruction and prep for that checkride. I was told he was ready, and displayed excellent situational awarenes and habits, and that his judgement was good. I was misinformed. He was not ready, and had very poor habits, dangerous habits, in fact. Moreover, his skill and ability were inferior to most, and I recommended strongly that he be terminated immediately.

In that pilot's case, he had the hours, with prior experience cited as a simulator instructor for a well known training agency, as well as airline experience, and even beginnings at an airline academy. After pressing him during our evening together, the company did some digging and learned his background was falsified, with the airline never having heard of him, and his job history a lie.

I know most of what I need to know about a pilot by talking to them, before we ever get to the airplane or the simulator. In his case, multiple red flags were raised during the pre-brief, enough that I stopped and discussed a long list of those concerns with the management for that operation. The flight produced 20 or so major concerns, from gross misunderstanding of aircraft systems to poor procedures which ranged from a non-existent traffic scan to lack of rudder use to rote use of the checklist...completely missing useful items such as landing gear, etc.

This individual had the hours to get the job, but not the experience. No doubt he'd flown the actual number of hours necessary to qualify for the job, as these were at least recorded in his logbook. How many were falsified, who knows...but the hours did nothing to hide his ineptness; his experience was the determining factor, and it sorely lacked.

Build experience. Not hours. Hours can certainly come with experience, though one's experience may be far in excess of the hours...but it doesn't work the other way around.
 

brokeflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Posts
2,374
Total Time
1501
No, he will not, because experience is not a byproduct of time. Flight hours mean nothing, while experience means everything.

If hours are all the poster wants, then falsify them. Write them in the logbook and be done with that, for that's all they're worth.

Don't build hours. Build experience.

Two pilots fly identical airplanes. One drones about for an hour and logs an hour of time. The other flies approaches, performs stalls and slow flight, and practices partial panel work. He also logs an hour of flight time. One has an hour of flight time, the other an hour of experience.

Don't build hours. Build experience.

I've met far too many 10,000 hour pilots who aren't worth their weight in salt...in fact it's quite probably accurate to say that 90% of the pilots out there aren't worth their weight. Lots of time builders, even in professional positions.

Hours are no measurement of a pilot's ability, attention to detail, judgement, or skill. How the pilot matures and develops professionally in response to his or her own experiences, however, are very telling.

Not long ago I was given the task of preparing several pilots for a utility assignment. Each was an experienced airline captain, and one owned several private aircraft (including a Mig, which he used to perform at airshows). The tasks which we performed were simple, but required some element of "multi-tasking." One pilot became airsick, and couldn't do simple turns about a point at low level in mountain turbulence. Another got lost. During an actual inflight emergency involving an explosive depressurization, one became catatonic and unresponsive. None of them had any skill in the use of the rudder. They were afraid of terrain. They were far too conservative for the job. While good individuals, and higher time pilots, their piloting time was not a good indicator of their appropriateness for the job. Lots of hours, not so much experience.

Another pilot was recommended for the job. I was told he was preparing to take a checkride with the FAA, and asked to give him an hour and a half of instruction and prep for that checkride. I was told he was ready, and displayed excellent situational awarenes and habits, and that his judgement was good. I was misinformed. He was not ready, and had very poor habits, dangerous habits, in fact. Moreover, his skill and ability were inferior to most, and I recommended strongly that he be terminated immediately.

In that pilot's case, he had the hours, with prior experience cited as a simulator instructor for a well known training agency, as well as airline experience, and even beginnings at an airline academy. After pressing him during our evening together, the company did some digging and learned his background was falsified, with the airline never having heard of him, and his job history a lie.

I know most of what I need to know about a pilot by talking to them, before we ever get to the airplane or the simulator. In his case, multiple red flags were raised during the pre-brief, enough that I stopped and discussed a long list of those concerns with the management for that operation. The flight produced 20 or so major concerns, from gross misunderstanding of aircraft systems to poor procedures which ranged from a non-existent traffic scan to lack of rudder use to rote use of the checklist...completely missing useful items such as landing gear, etc.

This individual had the hours to get the job, but not the experience. No doubt he'd flown the actual number of hours necessary to qualify for the job, as these were at least recorded in his logbook. How many were falsified, who knows...but the hours did nothing to hide his ineptness; his experience was the determining factor, and it sorely lacked.

Build experience. Not hours. Hours can certainly come with experience, though one's experience may be far in excess of the hours...but it doesn't work the other way around.

you really gotta get off the keyborad and go outside or something.....
 

epic!

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Posts
702
Total Time
some
You both bring up good points. Yes I need hours in order to build experience...however the 40 hours or so I have in King Air have produced an invaluable amount of knowledge that I would not have experience, even if I were to fly 100 hours in 172. I agree time does not necessarily measure a pilots ability to perform, but how am I supposed to gain experience on a limited budget and lack of hours?
 

brokeflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Posts
2,374
Total Time
1501
You both bring up good points. Yes I need hours in order to build experience...however the 40 hours or so I have in King Air have produced an invaluable amount of knowledge that I would not have experience, even if I were to fly 100 hours in 172. I agree time does not necessarily measure a pilots ability to perform, but how am I supposed to gain experience on a limited budget and lack of hours?

Do my suggestion. You get experience one hour at a time. So that means you do whatever you can to keep flying. Even if it's flying a banner. Hang out at your local airportm you'll never know when someone needs a safety pilot. Dont worry about the experience, it will come, you have all kinds of things happen that you will remember as "expereince"
 
Last edited:

JAFI

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Posts
964
Total Time
8000+
Lets see:

On the first night of flight training for a "commuter airline" (regionals were called commuters then) a frantic person I had never met stormed up to me in the hangar (as I was walking out to the aircraft for my first night of company flight training - hence no time to chat) and said "How do you shoot an ADF approach?" I said who are you. He said he was a new hire and he needed to fly NDB tonight and and he didn't know how. I asked if he had an instrument rating. He said he had an ATP and was captain for a 135 outfit and all he ever did was radar vectors. I had to get out to my aircraft so I kept walking. He yelled "HOW DO YOU SHOOT AN ADF APPROACH?" Under my breath as I walked to my aircraft I said - Very well, thankyou. We did shoot many ADF appraoches for this company and needed to know how. I never saw him again.

I was conducting a 135 check for a guy with a wet (two weeks old type rating) He learned in the aircraft. He never learned to start the engines. The Instructor would not let the student start the engines. He never did start the engines. It was a short checkride.

Current F16 pilot getting a jet type rating to get a job (he told me that). With everything working, less than 10 knots of wind, his clearance was "fly to XYZ VOR and hold as published (for an approach). I gave him an easy vector and he spun the OBS like he was grinding coffee. We flew by the VOR, he never knew where it was. I gave him another vector toward the VOR. He again spun the OBS looking for something I never figured out what. I sat there wondering what he was doing as he flew just outside of 10 miles from the VOR. I gave him another vector to the VOR. Again spinning the OBS. We never got there. He got a 609 ride out of that.

Was flight training a commuter captain upgrade at 3am (of course) during a VOR approach he desended down to MDA and he continued on for 15 minutes. This was at least 12 minutes past miss app time. I said "how we doing?" he said "great". I wait another 5 minutes and ask "how we doing?" He says "great". We are now 20 minutes over the ocean heading for a 12 hour trip before dry land with 2 hours of fuel. I said look out side for the airport. He looks at all the water and then gives me the deer in the headlight look. I say well captain what are you gonna do? He looks out side and again the deer in the headlight as we continue at 800' MSL out to sea. He did not upgrade.

All three pilots with enough flight time. What they needed was knowledge, experience, and ability.

I agree, get experience (knowledge/ability) over flight time.
 

brokeflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Posts
2,374
Total Time
1501
all good examples....like I said you'll get your experience one hour at a time. You can't "buy" experience.

good luck
 
Last edited:

avbug

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2001
Posts
7,602
Total Time
n/a
I agree time does not necessarily measure a pilots ability to perform, but how am I supposed to gain experience on a limited budget and lack of hours?

I believe we just covered this.
 

avbug

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2001
Posts
7,602
Total Time
n/a
What do you consider "productive?" You want someone to jump up and hand you a job, or are you permitting lesser responses, today?

How are you supposed to gain experience, you ask? How do you intend to gain "hours?"
 

epic!

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Posts
702
Total Time
some
You really can be irritating. No I am not looking for a hand out. I plan on paying my dues just as everyone else has. the point of this thread, before you completely ruined it, was to get some advice on what to do. People like you are the reason I have stopped posting here.
 

avbug

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2001
Posts
7,602
Total Time
n/a
When you're done sounding off like a little snot nosed twit, you'll perhaps remember that you opened the thread to comment when you first posted. One day when you grow up enough you may realize you've received some invaluable counsel. The days of the 300 hour wonder falling into a regional cockpit have somewhat faded, and it's time to stand up and make your way like most of us have done over the years.

I agree time does not necessarily measure a pilots ability to perform, but how am I supposed to gain experience on a limited budget and lack of hours?
The hardest part of flying is paying for it. You're not done achieving your basic certification and ratings, yet. Make this a priority. You need to be qualified to find work. Presently, you are not.

Seek work banner towing. Trade A Plane has an advertisement right now for banner pilots. http://www.trade-a-plane.com/classi...AND&keyword2=&timelimit=0&tlvalue=2&maxads=25

Find a dropzone ( http://www.uspa.org/FindaDZ/tabid/184/Default.aspx). Go make some skydives, hang out with drop zones, join the US Parachute association (http://www.uspa.org), and get some work flying jumpers (http://diverdriver.com). Learn to pack and make some extra money. Jumpers trust pilots who jump.

Join Civil Air Patrol (http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/html/pilots.htm) and fly cadets, become a mission pilot flying disaster relief or search and rescue, and instruct at your local squadron. You'll enjoy discount aircraft use, and meet other pilots seekin to gain experience with whom you can split aircraft use and cut costs.

You'll need an instructor certificate, of course, to instruct...but this is a bullet you're really going to have to bite sooner or later, even if it means working two full time jobs to get it paid off in the meanwhile. The question you'll have to answer for yourself is how badly do you want this to happen. Aviation doesn't come to you: you go to it. If you've been doing contract work at your tender hours, you're still living in a dream world...time to wake up.

Traffic watch...large cities will often have jobs available somewhere in the news sector for a 172 pilot or other such job, looking for and reporting on traffic. Might just be your thing. Places like Aircom occasionaly hire traffic watch pilots in L.A. (http://www.aircommedia.com/site_index.htm), or Desert Peak Aviation in Scottsdale (AZ).

Have you bothered to read the FlightInfo page on building experinece or "building time?" You should. http://www.flightinfo.com/buildtime.htm

You're probably going to have to move to find work. This is aviation of course, and it means going where the work is.

The real question here is not what you can do, but how motivated you are to go do it. Your blew your lid over some well placed good counsel on a web board when you did nothing more than ask for a handout...you're certainly far from demonstrating you're ready to make your way. You're going to need a considerably thicker skin. You're going to need to realize just how underqualified you presently are, and you're going to have to use that realization to motivate yourself to work hard to get where you want to be.

I can tell you that when I wanted to tow banners, I built a banner towing operation, sold the advertising, made the banners, fixed the airplanes, etc...and I used someone else's aircraft to do it because I couldn't afford my own. When I wanted to instruct, I built a student base. You could be teaching ground school right now as a ground instructor if you can't afford to obtain your flight instructor certificate...this costs nearly nothing but requires effort on your part...effort you should have already put out rather than crying about it.

Once I built a student base, I began hard-selling flight training. I towed banners. I towed an airplane as a float through the longest parade in the country. I visited schools and put on presentations. I took apart an airplane and reassembled it inside a mall as a display to sell instruction and flights. I began doing local scenic flights. I couldn't get a job instructing; they weren't to be had, so I came up with my own students, brought busines to a school, and went to work as an aircraft mechanic in the shop, and doing their books, and fueling their aircraft at night, and doing anything else I could for work. I brought in business, and in so doing enabled myself to be useful, and used that to trade for airplane time and an instructor to get an instructor certificate...and began flight instructing. All this while working a full time day job answering phones, and a full time night job as a guard. Are you motivated, or did you take no thought beyond asking on a web board?

As a high school kid trying to find work doing agricultural spraying, I hit the roads and visited every ag operator I could, eventually getting hired...in a time when new hires didn't get to fly, but only mix chemical, drive and fix tractors, and drill grain. I worked into the business, and it was my first job out of high school...crop dusting. It was hard work. It still is today.

Now, if you want to cop an attitude and whine and cry, and whimper about stopping posting because you think people giving you good counsel are irritating you, then that's your choice. Crawl back under the blanket until you feel safe, then come out later and ask again. In the meantime, forget the good information you've received...and move on your way. If you keep asking, eventually you'll have it all layed out on a silver platter. Right?
 
Last edited:

JAFI

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Posts
964
Total Time
8000+
Epic, not every lesson or answer you receive is "happy" or welcome by you. It is however, a gift. It really does not matter if you like it or not. Some day that gift may be something you can use to benefit you or some one you care for. Because it is a gift just say thank you and store it away.

You asked a question that has been asked by young pilots over and over again. Good for you. Not every answer will fit you. That does not mean it is a bad answer. If you want to play with the big dogs, you need to take it like a big dog. You may not like Avbugs way of delivery. Does that mean on a very hot day you would refuse free Ice cream (a gift) because the car that brought it had a bad muffler that annoyed you? Would you rather have a car show up with a good muffler and no ice cream?

When I was in your shoes and there were more Instructors than students at the airports near me, I layed out a map and drew a circle of how far I would drive to a flight instructing job considering the condition of my just running car and the price of gas. I had enough gas money to drive to each airport to look at the operation and look for work. After hitting what I saw as my best (big) airport) options, I found work at a smaller airport and slowly built up a student base. There were no banner towing or ag operations near by. You need to go out and impress owners with your ability and work ethic. It is a small world, but to be known in your area you must go out and meet the operators.
 

Tristar

..one in the wilderness
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Posts
351
Total Time
7000+
While I'll concede that Avbug's initial replies weren't quite what the OP was looking for, they contain a lot of good ideas. Along with JAFI's examples of the results of just building time instead of experience.

Epic - I understand your frustration, but hopefully Avbug's last post gives you some ideas of WHERE to go, re-read the initial posts and take to heart WHAT to do when you go there.

I'm surmising that you have had the misfortune of bad timing - you've spent a bunch of money getting your ratings and were expecting to quickly be able to move to a regional, as that has been the model of the last few years. Due to a combination of circumstances that model is changing, perhaps permanently by law. I understand your frustration - this wasn't what you signed up for.

At the same time, I also understand Avbug's irritation at your attitude (at least how it can be read online). The current industry isn't what most of us who've been in it for more than 10 years signed up for either. While there are many causes of the deterioration, a significant one is has been the availability of of low time pilots willing to work for nothing at the airline level. Pretty much everyone has scraped to get by and worked for next to nothing at some point, the difference was there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

Forgive me for jumping in and lecturing you, but you need to take Avbug's suggestions to heart. If you really want to make it in aviation, it's going to cost you beyond just the money spent getting your ratings. It's going to take several years of dedication, and busting your butt to gain both hours and experience. It's probably harder now than any time in recent history, so you have a tough row to hoe for the next couple of years.

The best advice I can give you is spend as much time as possible frequenting local airports. Meet poeple, make connections, grab opportunities. While in college, I spent a great deal of time hanging out at the airport. I made it a point to stop by, introduce myself and talk to a local corporate pilot who operated a turboprop single pilot. Obviously he knew I was a low time pilot looking for flight time and experience, but I apparently made a decent impression and flew several hundred hours over the next few years.

It may not be a turboprop in your case - fill in the blanks with whatever you find out there. The bottom line is it's going to take initiative, resourcefulness, and dedication on your part. I wish I could provide you with more suggestions or leads, but there are so many possible permutations that it's hard to offer much more than general suggestions to "try everything."

If you decide to stick it out, I wish you good luck.
 
Last edited:

wrxpilot

The proud, the few
Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Posts
901
Total Time
-
You both bring up good points. Yes I need hours in order to build experience...however the 40 hours or so I have in King Air have produced an invaluable amount of knowledge that I would not have experience, even if I were to fly 100 hours in 172. I agree time does not necessarily measure a pilots ability to perform, but how am I supposed to gain experience on a limited budget and lack of hours?

Well, all I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. When I had less than 500 hours, 100 hours of 172 time as a CFI was WAY more valuable as an experience builder than 40 hrs sitting in the right seat of a king air. I think Avbug has some pretty good points. Experience comes from being a PIC... The guy or girl making decisions. I sit right seat now, but at least I was able to spend over 1,000 hrs as a PIC in various other positions beforehand. That's not much, but at least it was enough to give me a chance at having a clue.

For building time - obtaining your CFI is not that expensive. Most of it is self study, so if you're a motivated person, you can accomplish the vast majority of CFI work yourself. Shouldn't take more than a couple thousand bucks to take care of your CFI ride, and then you can build all kinds of great experience that will stick with you forever.
 
Last edited:

epic!

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Posts
702
Total Time
some
When you're done sounding off like a little snot nosed twit, you'll perhaps remember that you opened the thread to comment when you first posted. One day when you grow up enough you may realize you've received some invaluable counsel. The days of the 300 hour wonder falling into a regional cockpit have somewhat faded, and it's time to stand up and make your way like most of us have done over the years.

The hardest part of flying is paying for it. You're not done achieving your basic certification and ratings, yet. Make this a priority. You need to be qualified to find work. Presently, you are not.

Seek work banner towing. Trade A Plane has an advertisement right now for banner pilots. http://www.trade-a-plane.com/classi...AND&keyword2=&timelimit=0&tlvalue=2&maxads=25

Find a dropzone ( http://www.uspa.org/FindaDZ/tabid/184/Default.aspx). Go make some skydives, hang out with drop zones, join the US Parachute association (http://www.uspa.org), and get some work flying jumpers (http://diverdriver.com). Learn to pack and make some extra money. Jumpers trust pilots who jump.

Join Civil Air Patrol (http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/html/pilots.htm) and fly cadets, become a mission pilot flying disaster relief or search and rescue, and instruct at your local squadron. You'll enjoy discount aircraft use, and meet other pilots seekin to gain experience with whom you can split aircraft use and cut costs.

You'll need an instructor certificate, of course, to instruct...but this is a bullet you're really going to have to bite sooner or later, even if it means working two full time jobs to get it paid off in the meanwhile. The question you'll have to answer for yourself is how badly do you want this to happen. Aviation doesn't come to you: you go to it. If you've been doing contract work at your tender hours, you're still living in a dream world...time to wake up.

Traffic watch...large cities will often have jobs available somewhere in the news sector for a 172 pilot or other such job, looking for and reporting on traffic. Might just be your thing. Places like Aircom occasionaly hire traffic watch pilots in L.A. (http://www.aircommedia.com/site_index.htm), or Desert Peak Aviation in Scottsdale (AZ).

Have you bothered to read the FlightInfo page on building experinece or "building time?" You should. http://www.flightinfo.com/buildtime.htm

You're probably going to have to move to find work. This is aviation of course, and it means going where the work is.

The real question here is not what you can do, but how motivated you are to go do it. Your blew your lid over some well placed good counsel on a web board when you did nothing more than ask for a handout...you're certainly far from demonstrating you're ready to make your way. You're going to need a considerably thicker skin. You're going to need to realize just how underqualified you presently are, and you're going to have to use that realization to motivate yourself to work hard to get where you want to be.

I can tell you that when I wanted to tow banners, I built a banner towing operation, sold the advertising, made the banners, fixed the airplanes, etc...and I used someone else's aircraft to do it because I couldn't afford my own. When I wanted to instruct, I built a student base. You could be teaching ground school right now as a ground instructor if you can't afford to obtain your flight instructor certificate...this costs nearly nothing but requires effort on your part...effort you should have already put out rather than crying about it.

Once I built a student base, I began hard-selling flight training. I towed banners. I towed an airplane as a float through the longest parade in the country. I visited schools and put on presentations. I took apart an airplane and reassembled it inside a mall as a display to sell instruction and flights. I began doing local scenic flights. I couldn't get a job instructing; they weren't to be had, so I came up with my own students, brought busines to a school, and went to work as an aircraft mechanic in the shop, and doing their books, and fueling their aircraft at night, and doing anything else I could for work. I brought in business, and in so doing enabled myself to be useful, and used that to trade for airplane time and an instructor to get an instructor certificate...and began flight instructing. All this while working a full time day job answering phones, and a full time night job as a guard. Are you motivated, or did you take no thought beyond asking on a web board?

As a high school kid trying to find work doing agricultural spraying, I hit the roads and visited every ag operator I could, eventually getting hired...in a time when new hires didn't get to fly, but only mix chemical, drive and fix tractors, and drill grain. I worked into the business, and it was my first job out of high school...crop dusting. It was hard work. It still is today.

Now, if you want to cop an attitude and whine and cry, and whimper about stopping posting because you think people giving you good counsel are irritating you, then that's your choice. Crawl back under the blanket until you feel safe, then come out later and ask again. In the meantime, forget the good information you've received...and move on your way. If you keep asking, eventually you'll have it all layed out on a silver platter. Right?

Now this is the kind of response I needed. Thank you. Im sorry for coming off with an attitude, but you have to admit your first few posts were less than helpful. I did not mean to belittle any of the advice you gave me, I was simply upset at how you presented it.
 
Top