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Time Building in a B727
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bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
Instructing in your 30s
Good post, BigFlyr.
I started instructing full-time at age 37 and built up enough total and multi to get some interviews, in the face of blatant age discrimination. You don't need to, and shouldn't spend, the $20K for Gulfstream P-F-T or $17K whatever for SimCenter P-F-T.
No need to waste Mark's bandwidth to revisit that discussion for what is probably flamebait.
Good post, BigFlyr.
I started instructing full-time at age 37 and built up enough total and multi to get some interviews, in the face of blatant age discrimination. You don't need to, and shouldn't spend, the $20K for Gulfstream P-F-T or $17K whatever for SimCenter P-F-T.
No need to waste Mark's bandwidth to revisit that discussion for what is probably flamebait.
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FlightTraker
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 328
ILSRWY15,
I highly doubt you would have to instruct 2,000 hours, but you will learn so much more than your 727 course. Not to mention get paid. In your CFI training you will learn about the learning process, and the REASON why there is a progression CFI, Multi, Regional. Major. If you think this 727 course will get a job in a 727 right away , then do it. I personally think you are putting the cart before the horse (about 2 miles in front-thats probably how far behind the plane you'll be
)
Don't worry about your age. I took six years off from flying to become an aircraft dispatcher. I am now 30, and back flying again. Time is on your side. I know a few guys who changed careers in ther 40's. Whatever you decide, enjoy it, have fun. Good Luck!
FlightTraker
You sound like your going to enter NFL draft.....it isn't that easy my friend. If you want to fork over the money to get force fed 727 numbers and alot of info that won't make any sense to you because you haven't worked your way up to it , be my guest. I'm not saying it can be done. I'm sure it can. But in today's industry, with very little PIC and multi, I don't think it will help you.
I highly doubt you would have to instruct 2,000 hours, but you will learn so much more than your 727 course. Not to mention get paid. In your CFI training you will learn about the learning process, and the REASON why there is a progression CFI, Multi, Regional. Major. If you think this 727 course will get a job in a 727 right away , then do it. I personally think you are putting the cart before the horse (about 2 miles in front-thats probably how far behind the plane you'll be
)Don't worry about your age. I took six years off from flying to become an aircraft dispatcher. I am now 30, and back flying again. Time is on your side. I know a few guys who changed careers in ther 40's. Whatever you decide, enjoy it, have fun. Good Luck!
FlightTraker
727 right seat time is worthless....
BigFlyr and everyone.
I appreciate your time in responding to my post and your opinions. You all obvoiusly have me on experience and hours. I know a lot of you got your hours the hard way and have a definite opinion regarding buying time.
One thing is clear and I have heard this (I am sure you have as well) from people in the industry. Things are going to change.
A lot of pilots are going to be retiring very soon and for the next several years. There is going to create quite a void.
The military pool is not going to be able to fill this void due to strides made in retention. I have lots of C-17 pilot friends that are going to re-up based on better incentives from the goverment.
That leaves GA. I understand that being a CFI is valuable and the instruction time is important. That is why I became a CFI in the first place. Maybe I am naive. I blows my mind that 200 hrs,
right seat in a 727 (engaged in 121 cargo) is worthless. How are you to get your foot in the door?
I guess a lot of it has to do with being in the right place at the right time. My friend who graduated from Gulfstream is now in a FO program for US Air to fly Saab 340's. He got the positon (2) weeks after finishing his contract with Gulfstream. Clearly, someone saw the worth of his right seat time. True, this time is in commuter and not 121 cargo.
But what if my interest is in cargo and not passenger? What if I wanted to work with a cargo company and build time as a 727 FO. Would that time be worthless not being a Captain?
One thing for sure is that my level of frustration is growing. I am not sure which route to go at this point. I have those who say go for the training and those who say it is worthless. Who do I believe?
The only thing that I am sure about is my ability as a pilot and the time an money that I have invetsted to get where I am.
I guess I am going to have to make my own decision in regards to which route to take. One thing I do know for sure is that I will do whatever it takes for me to get my office at FL350.
g.
BigFlyr and everyone.
I appreciate your time in responding to my post and your opinions. You all obvoiusly have me on experience and hours. I know a lot of you got your hours the hard way and have a definite opinion regarding buying time.
One thing is clear and I have heard this (I am sure you have as well) from people in the industry. Things are going to change.
A lot of pilots are going to be retiring very soon and for the next several years. There is going to create quite a void.
The military pool is not going to be able to fill this void due to strides made in retention. I have lots of C-17 pilot friends that are going to re-up based on better incentives from the goverment.
That leaves GA. I understand that being a CFI is valuable and the instruction time is important. That is why I became a CFI in the first place. Maybe I am naive. I blows my mind that 200 hrs,
right seat in a 727 (engaged in 121 cargo) is worthless. How are you to get your foot in the door?
I guess a lot of it has to do with being in the right place at the right time. My friend who graduated from Gulfstream is now in a FO program for US Air to fly Saab 340's. He got the positon (2) weeks after finishing his contract with Gulfstream. Clearly, someone saw the worth of his right seat time. True, this time is in commuter and not 121 cargo.
But what if my interest is in cargo and not passenger? What if I wanted to work with a cargo company and build time as a 727 FO. Would that time be worthless not being a Captain?
One thing for sure is that my level of frustration is growing. I am not sure which route to go at this point. I have those who say go for the training and those who say it is worthless. Who do I believe?
The only thing that I am sure about is my ability as a pilot and the time an money that I have invetsted to get where I am.
I guess I am going to have to make my own decision in regards to which route to take. One thing I do know for sure is that I will do whatever it takes for me to get my office at FL350.
g.
Bluto
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2001
- Posts
- 1,147
Trying to find the "loopholes" around the instructing route is, imho, a waste of time. I see your friend seemed to reap some benefits by going to Gulfstream. Keep in mind however, that he is not flying for USAir, but one of their feeders if it's in a Saab. The USAir feeders are in some pretty dire straits. What will your friend do if/when his company goes out of business? Who do you think will hire you with 700tt, even with the 727 time?
"A lot of pilots are going to be retiring very soon and for the next several years. There is going to create quite a void...That leaves GA."
Sorry, I have to disagree with you there. Do a search on "pilot shortages" and you will see why there is, and never will be such a thing. You have failed to account for the **1,000s of pilots at the regionals!** As an HR person, would you rather hire a person with 700tt and 200 in a 727? or a person with 2500tt and 1,000 in a turboprop, or an RJ? Who do you think has the higher quality experience? That doesn't even take in to account regional captains.
"Maybe I am naive. I blows my mind that 200 hrs, right seat in a 727 (engaged in 121 cargo) is worthless."
Sorry, look at the industry, that time is next to worthless. Try talking to some furloughed 727 pilots. See how many of them have flying jobs of any kind with vastly higher levels of experience than you would have.
I have no desire to flame you, I just hope, before you pay $13K, you listen to someone other than the marketing personnel at the school. Get a realistic look at the industry. Good luck, whatever you choose.
"A lot of pilots are going to be retiring very soon and for the next several years. There is going to create quite a void...That leaves GA."
Sorry, I have to disagree with you there. Do a search on "pilot shortages" and you will see why there is, and never will be such a thing. You have failed to account for the **1,000s of pilots at the regionals!** As an HR person, would you rather hire a person with 700tt and 200 in a 727? or a person with 2500tt and 1,000 in a turboprop, or an RJ? Who do you think has the higher quality experience? That doesn't even take in to account regional captains.
"Maybe I am naive. I blows my mind that 200 hrs, right seat in a 727 (engaged in 121 cargo) is worthless."
Sorry, look at the industry, that time is next to worthless. Try talking to some furloughed 727 pilots. See how many of them have flying jobs of any kind with vastly higher levels of experience than you would have.
I have no desire to flame you, I just hope, before you pay $13K, you listen to someone other than the marketing personnel at the school. Get a realistic look at the industry. Good luck, whatever you choose.
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
Pilot "shortage" - NOT!
My friend, be smart and stop drinking from Kit Darby's well. There has never been a pilot shortage. I know. I've documented my experiences plenty in other posts, but don't just take my word for it. Get a copy of Flying the Line, in which Prof. Hopkins notes either explicitly or implicitly that there never has been a pilot shortage, and that airlines have always been able to find pilots.
You do have to move up step by step. Although I consider most airline H.R. pilot recruiters to be more stupid than rocks, they can determine anomalies in a career progression. They do have enough sense to determine that if someone shows anomalous 727 time then probably that person bought it, and they will discount its value. It's because most people get 727 time through employment, and usually experienced pilots who've worked their way up the ranks get that employment.
Instructing may not be for everyone, and I would congratulate anyone who legitimately got a job and built total and multi without instructing, because getting such jobs at low time is virtually impossible. The truth is nearly everyone has to start with instructing because those jobs can and are obtained right out of flight training. Moreover, Bluto makes a good point. What if you have the turbine time but not the total time companies want? Chances are, you'll have to find a job flying recips and your turbine currency will fade into obscurity.
Go build your total and multi PIC in recips. You can get a job where someone pays you to get it. Multi PIC is like money in the bank. It'll always be valuable. The other stuff will come in time.
You've come to the right place for advice. Listen to experienced pilots who've been working for a while and not the so-called "career consultants." Good luck with your decision.
My friend, be smart and stop drinking from Kit Darby's well. There has never been a pilot shortage. I know. I've documented my experiences plenty in other posts, but don't just take my word for it. Get a copy of Flying the Line, in which Prof. Hopkins notes either explicitly or implicitly that there never has been a pilot shortage, and that airlines have always been able to find pilots.
You do have to move up step by step. Although I consider most airline H.R. pilot recruiters to be more stupid than rocks, they can determine anomalies in a career progression. They do have enough sense to determine that if someone shows anomalous 727 time then probably that person bought it, and they will discount its value. It's because most people get 727 time through employment, and usually experienced pilots who've worked their way up the ranks get that employment.
Instructing may not be for everyone, and I would congratulate anyone who legitimately got a job and built total and multi without instructing, because getting such jobs at low time is virtually impossible. The truth is nearly everyone has to start with instructing because those jobs can and are obtained right out of flight training. Moreover, Bluto makes a good point. What if you have the turbine time but not the total time companies want? Chances are, you'll have to find a job flying recips and your turbine currency will fade into obscurity.
Go build your total and multi PIC in recips. You can get a job where someone pays you to get it. Multi PIC is like money in the bank. It'll always be valuable. The other stuff will come in time.
You've come to the right place for advice. Listen to experienced pilots who've been working for a while and not the so-called "career consultants." Good luck with your decision.
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UPS Capt
100% IPA
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 151
I am looking to go pro in about a year and Sim Center was recommended from a friend of mine (just graduated from GulfStream Academy). I am really not interested in going the turbo prop route. Definitely want to get the jet time right off the bat, especially heavy lift.
ILSRWY15,
I hate to bust your bubble but your plan is flawed, and realistically speaking, it ain't gonna happen. Personally, I think your wasting your time and money.
What your trying to do is a kin to taking just a quickie weekend course to pass the medical board tests and expect some hospital to put you on staff the following week if you pass, bypassing all normal protical to achieve that position. You'll quickly discover there's much more to it than that and you'll soon be over your head.
Okay, now for the truth. There is no pilot shortage and there never will be. I've heard that marketing strategy for the last 25 years and folks keep buying into it. The hiring practices of the last few years was a fluke and certainly not the norm. Do you really think that with all the very experienced pilots currently furloughed and pounding the pavement looking for employment, that your just going to walk into a 727 f/o position with your PFT time? Do you realize that the people who do the hiring are pilots themselves?
That PFT company will promise you the moon if they thought they could get your money! They're like used car salesman! The airlines, however, are a totally different story. You see, they have to pay for your training, not the other way around, and are not interested in the possibility of spending any extra money or time getting a 500-700 hr pilot up to speed to "their" standards.
I can only believe this is flame bait because all you've done is piss off the many folks here who've worked very hard, paid their dues through blood, sweat and tears, not to mention years, to get where they are. You show up with this incredibly naive belief that you'll somehow buy your way into a 72 f/o position. The training alone will probably knock you out of the running. When I checked out as a 72 f/o, I had over 6000 hrs and 4000 of that was hand flying commuter turboprops in the NE US. I can tell you my instrument skills were very sharp and I had my hands full initially trying to learn the B727.
Do you really believe 520 hrs of single engine piston time, in any way imaginable, really prepares you to handle a very large swept wing jet and all the emergencies, non-normals you'll experience in training and in bad weather? Do you really believe the Capt's are going to be so patient with your constant fumbling. Remember, these Capt's probably came up the hard way and already dislike you! If you think you'll be a productive member of that crew then you are only kidding yourself!
Oh, and about your comment on just flying cargo instead of pax. I hope your not talking about companies like UPS, FedEx, DHL or Airborne. If you are, don't bother. They won't even give you the time of day at your experience level. These companies have literally thousands of resumes on file from extremely qualified (re: 5000+ hrs) pilots with real experience...not PFT time.
ILSRWY15,
I hate to bust your bubble but your plan is flawed, and realistically speaking, it ain't gonna happen. Personally, I think your wasting your time and money.
What your trying to do is a kin to taking just a quickie weekend course to pass the medical board tests and expect some hospital to put you on staff the following week if you pass, bypassing all normal protical to achieve that position. You'll quickly discover there's much more to it than that and you'll soon be over your head.
Okay, now for the truth. There is no pilot shortage and there never will be. I've heard that marketing strategy for the last 25 years and folks keep buying into it. The hiring practices of the last few years was a fluke and certainly not the norm. Do you really think that with all the very experienced pilots currently furloughed and pounding the pavement looking for employment, that your just going to walk into a 727 f/o position with your PFT time? Do you realize that the people who do the hiring are pilots themselves?
That PFT company will promise you the moon if they thought they could get your money! They're like used car salesman! The airlines, however, are a totally different story. You see, they have to pay for your training, not the other way around, and are not interested in the possibility of spending any extra money or time getting a 500-700 hr pilot up to speed to "their" standards.
I can only believe this is flame bait because all you've done is piss off the many folks here who've worked very hard, paid their dues through blood, sweat and tears, not to mention years, to get where they are. You show up with this incredibly naive belief that you'll somehow buy your way into a 72 f/o position. The training alone will probably knock you out of the running. When I checked out as a 72 f/o, I had over 6000 hrs and 4000 of that was hand flying commuter turboprops in the NE US. I can tell you my instrument skills were very sharp and I had my hands full initially trying to learn the B727.
Do you really believe 520 hrs of single engine piston time, in any way imaginable, really prepares you to handle a very large swept wing jet and all the emergencies, non-normals you'll experience in training and in bad weather? Do you really believe the Capt's are going to be so patient with your constant fumbling. Remember, these Capt's probably came up the hard way and already dislike you! If you think you'll be a productive member of that crew then you are only kidding yourself!
Oh, and about your comment on just flying cargo instead of pax. I hope your not talking about companies like UPS, FedEx, DHL or Airborne. If you are, don't bother. They won't even give you the time of day at your experience level. These companies have literally thousands of resumes on file from extremely qualified (re: 5000+ hrs) pilots with real experience...not PFT time.
UPS Capt (response)
Thanks for the words of encouragement. Seems like I will find more sucess selling vacuums.......
I am not trying to exist outside of my capabilites nor am I trying to
undermine yours. Obviously you out rate me and have more time than I can imagine.
My only desire is to fly professionally and get as much information that will help get me there. I feel bad that someone would dislike me because I paid to get some hours in an effort to get a leg up rather get them through blood sweat and tears.
What doe that have to do with ability? Thanks for the advice.
Flame bait....interesting term.
g.
Thanks for the words of encouragement. Seems like I will find more sucess selling vacuums.......
I am not trying to exist outside of my capabilites nor am I trying to
undermine yours. Obviously you out rate me and have more time than I can imagine.
My only desire is to fly professionally and get as much information that will help get me there. I feel bad that someone would dislike me because I paid to get some hours in an effort to get a leg up rather get them through blood sweat and tears.
What doe that have to do with ability? Thanks for the advice.
Flame bait....interesting term.
g.
NEDude
yada yada yada
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2001
- Posts
- 1,611
This is a position that many low time pilots get into. They have spent a year or two and several thousands of dollars training to become professional pilots. They have passed some very tough exams, particularly the CFI, and now feel that they know a lot about aviation. The time has come to reap the rewards for all of that hard work. Besides a turboprop or jet can't be all that different from a 172 or Seminole.
There is nothing wrong with feeling that way. We all have at one point. Buying some time in a Beech 1900 or 727 can seem awfully tempting when you have 500 hours and are facing another 500 -1500 hours of bouncing around the sky in a 172 as a CFI.
I am fortunate enough to be at a point right now where I still remember wanting to get out of flight instructing and moving to an airline job so badly that shelling out another 15 to 20 grand looked like a good idea. But I am also starting to be able to see the value in being a CFI and hand flying a Beech 1900 around the northeast. It is sort of like being in your early twenties, you still can identify with a lot of teenagers, but you identify with the adults as well (now that I am in my thirties teenagers seem like weird alien creatures that only Harvard research scientists can come close to understanding).
Anyway, take it from someone who is not that far ahead of you, flying a turboprop for a 121 airline is not like flying a 172 as a CFI. There is a lot more studying, paperwork and responsibility. And LaGuardia or Boston are not places to be 500 hour pilots. You will appreciate the CFI experience, even if it is only 300 hours of it. And you will appreciate having spent some time hand flying a turboprop. And most of all you will appreciate having that $13,000 still in your pocket when you are living on first year regional pay.
Good luck in your career and I do hope that whatever decision you make works out the best for you. But it would be wise to listen to people who have been in the industry longer than you have. As much bickering and name calling as there can be on this board, there is still some good advice here.
There is nothing wrong with feeling that way. We all have at one point. Buying some time in a Beech 1900 or 727 can seem awfully tempting when you have 500 hours and are facing another 500 -1500 hours of bouncing around the sky in a 172 as a CFI.
I am fortunate enough to be at a point right now where I still remember wanting to get out of flight instructing and moving to an airline job so badly that shelling out another 15 to 20 grand looked like a good idea. But I am also starting to be able to see the value in being a CFI and hand flying a Beech 1900 around the northeast. It is sort of like being in your early twenties, you still can identify with a lot of teenagers, but you identify with the adults as well (now that I am in my thirties teenagers seem like weird alien creatures that only Harvard research scientists can come close to understanding).
Anyway, take it from someone who is not that far ahead of you, flying a turboprop for a 121 airline is not like flying a 172 as a CFI. There is a lot more studying, paperwork and responsibility. And LaGuardia or Boston are not places to be 500 hour pilots. You will appreciate the CFI experience, even if it is only 300 hours of it. And you will appreciate having spent some time hand flying a turboprop. And most of all you will appreciate having that $13,000 still in your pocket when you are living on first year regional pay.
Good luck in your career and I do hope that whatever decision you make works out the best for you. But it would be wise to listen to people who have been in the industry longer than you have. As much bickering and name calling as there can be on this board, there is still some good advice here.
Howdy all!
This posting really is not flame bait. They are honest questions from those frustrated by their current path.
The only decent multiengine in a 5 airport area in Southern California requires 2000 hours of total time and 1000 hours multiengine to rent. That just shot down my thoughts of building time locally, or even instructing in multis. I can't afford the CFI insurance that would allow me to be covered in those aircraft, or even a pressurized single, and the owner wouldn’t care if I could. This is Southern California for pete’s sake!
Fedex lists their qualifications as 1000 hours multiengine PIC time (heavier than 20,000 pounds or turboprop). They don’t care about much else. Skywest keeps theirs at 1000 total and 100 multi, yet is only hiring from career fairs.
Does anyone think that 100 hours multiengine time (840 total), of which half is safety pilot, will make any regionals wish list? Mesa airlines, yes, if you pay for their program will "interview" at 250 total. Same with GIA and a few others.
I asked about type ratings earlier. That got shot down. What is the difference between a BE20 (local airplane requires a type), Cessna Citation, and a B757 type if there is no PIC time in the aircraft?
Flight instructing? That's nice, for every hour I instruct, that is one hour my instructors are not instructing, and one less hour that I can be searching for students for them to instruct. The business is not running itself. Other arguments can be that someone simply should not be a CFI.
So now one has paid their dues, without getting themselves killed, and has a large chunk of funds to use for achieving their goals. The question remains, how best to do so?
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
This posting really is not flame bait. They are honest questions from those frustrated by their current path.
The only decent multiengine in a 5 airport area in Southern California requires 2000 hours of total time and 1000 hours multiengine to rent. That just shot down my thoughts of building time locally, or even instructing in multis. I can't afford the CFI insurance that would allow me to be covered in those aircraft, or even a pressurized single, and the owner wouldn’t care if I could. This is Southern California for pete’s sake!
Fedex lists their qualifications as 1000 hours multiengine PIC time (heavier than 20,000 pounds or turboprop). They don’t care about much else. Skywest keeps theirs at 1000 total and 100 multi, yet is only hiring from career fairs.
Does anyone think that 100 hours multiengine time (840 total), of which half is safety pilot, will make any regionals wish list? Mesa airlines, yes, if you pay for their program will "interview" at 250 total. Same with GIA and a few others.
I asked about type ratings earlier. That got shot down. What is the difference between a BE20 (local airplane requires a type), Cessna Citation, and a B757 type if there is no PIC time in the aircraft?
Flight instructing? That's nice, for every hour I instruct, that is one hour my instructors are not instructing, and one less hour that I can be searching for students for them to instruct. The business is not running itself. Other arguments can be that someone simply should not be a CFI.
So now one has paid their dues, without getting themselves killed, and has a large chunk of funds to use for achieving their goals. The question remains, how best to do so?
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
Eskimo_ghost
Member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2002
- Posts
- 16
"Whatever is takes".....
"One thing I do know for sure is that I will do whatever it takes for me to get my office at FL350."
"Whatever it takes" can mean a lot of things....some not good.
It could mean you are willing to be a scab....
It could mean you are willing to go through a Gulftream program that is bad for the piloting profession because you pay to work in the seat rather than the traditional method of actually paying a pilot to sit there....
Or it could mean you are willing to bust your butt working your way up the ladder like most other people....
I'm a 727 F/O....and I can tell you it's not the sort of thing a low time, light airplane guy should be doing. Yeah...they do it in Europe and they do it in the military....but those type of training programs are highly selective and much more intensive...and expensive....than the normal training paths we all went though.
I did very little instructing even though I had the CFI early on. I wasn't the type to go around beating on doors...which hurt me....but I got a job flying the canyon, instead. If you are frustrated about the way things are or the way things work....welcome to the club....we have all been there. There are times in aviation where low end, time building jobs are easy to find and there are times when they aren't. I've been though two cycles of both. "Whatever it takes" means finding a way to stick out the bad times and move up during the good....time and patience are important.
"One thing I do know for sure is that I will do whatever it takes for me to get my office at FL350."
"Whatever it takes" can mean a lot of things....some not good.
It could mean you are willing to be a scab....
It could mean you are willing to go through a Gulftream program that is bad for the piloting profession because you pay to work in the seat rather than the traditional method of actually paying a pilot to sit there....
Or it could mean you are willing to bust your butt working your way up the ladder like most other people....
I'm a 727 F/O....and I can tell you it's not the sort of thing a low time, light airplane guy should be doing. Yeah...they do it in Europe and they do it in the military....but those type of training programs are highly selective and much more intensive...and expensive....than the normal training paths we all went though.
I did very little instructing even though I had the CFI early on. I wasn't the type to go around beating on doors...which hurt me....but I got a job flying the canyon, instead. If you are frustrated about the way things are or the way things work....welcome to the club....we have all been there. There are times in aviation where low end, time building jobs are easy to find and there are times when they aren't. I've been though two cycles of both. "Whatever it takes" means finding a way to stick out the bad times and move up during the good....time and patience are important.
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
Hey, Jedi
You can't really use the anti-CFI argument in your case. I appreciate your position. You're caught between running your business, which is flight instruction, and flight instructing. You are to be commended, though, for seeing that your employees are working (and building time) instead of hogging all the flight time and work for yourself. You're apparently doing the right thing by your people, and you're someone I'd want to work for.
You can't really lump Mesa Pilot Development into per se P-F-T. I worked there for a while. Students get no guarantees. They are told only that they have a chance for a Mesa interview if they exemplify themselves as quality people and maintain a "B" average in their flight courses. No one is promised "the interview." They do graduate with 300 hours with 10 of 1900 turbine, and are virtually line-ready. It is a good program. The distinguishing aspect of MAPD from per se P-F-T is although students are imbued with Mesa line procedures their Commercial-Instrument-Multis can be shopped anywhere. Mesa has hired a large percentage of MAPD grads. It is true that MAPD is a cash cow for the company. Students were paying $35K+ eight years ago. I have no idea how much it is now. Of course, one thing Mesa was always good at was contriving cash cows and making money.
You can say the same thing about Comair not being P-F-T per se. Those students pay plenty. The best become instructors, and the best of that group are hired.
Decent discussion, considering its early flamebait potential.
You can't really use the anti-CFI argument in your case. I appreciate your position. You're caught between running your business, which is flight instruction, and flight instructing. You are to be commended, though, for seeing that your employees are working (and building time) instead of hogging all the flight time and work for yourself. You're apparently doing the right thing by your people, and you're someone I'd want to work for.
You can't really lump Mesa Pilot Development into per se P-F-T. I worked there for a while. Students get no guarantees. They are told only that they have a chance for a Mesa interview if they exemplify themselves as quality people and maintain a "B" average in their flight courses. No one is promised "the interview." They do graduate with 300 hours with 10 of 1900 turbine, and are virtually line-ready. It is a good program. The distinguishing aspect of MAPD from per se P-F-T is although students are imbued with Mesa line procedures their Commercial-Instrument-Multis can be shopped anywhere. Mesa has hired a large percentage of MAPD grads. It is true that MAPD is a cash cow for the company. Students were paying $35K+ eight years ago. I have no idea how much it is now. Of course, one thing Mesa was always good at was contriving cash cows and making money.
You can say the same thing about Comair not being P-F-T per se. Those students pay plenty. The best become instructors, and the best of that group are hired.
Decent discussion, considering its early flamebait potential.
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My $.02.
Is the right seat 727 time any good? I went the route where I started as an engineer with about 500 hours. I flew on the side to get the requisite time to upgrade. I now have 1000+ hours in the right seat (paid for by the company) and just under 2300 TT. I can't get anyone flying 72's to look at me, much less anything bigger. I am darn happy to have an interview with a regional scheduled.
Could I have gotten here flying as a CFI? Sure. I would probably have a few years of seniority at a regional and would probably not be furloughed right now. Do I regret the path I took? Not at all. Not only is life too short for regrets but we all do the best we can.
And anyway. I loved every minute flying the Triassic jet. I am probably spoiled for the future. A great plane to hand fly (and with cargo and not passengers, there were no complaints from the rough ride at first), not automated (had to do all that mental math we all complain about), and if you could see it over the nose, you could land there (you former drivers know what I mean).
I don't advocate the pay for training route. Sure it might help you out but you are screwing those who follow. You will get to where you want to go either way. Do it right.
Is the right seat 727 time any good? I went the route where I started as an engineer with about 500 hours. I flew on the side to get the requisite time to upgrade. I now have 1000+ hours in the right seat (paid for by the company) and just under 2300 TT. I can't get anyone flying 72's to look at me, much less anything bigger. I am darn happy to have an interview with a regional scheduled.
Could I have gotten here flying as a CFI? Sure. I would probably have a few years of seniority at a regional and would probably not be furloughed right now. Do I regret the path I took? Not at all. Not only is life too short for regrets but we all do the best we can.
And anyway. I loved every minute flying the Triassic jet. I am probably spoiled for the future. A great plane to hand fly (and with cargo and not passengers, there were no complaints from the rough ride at first), not automated (had to do all that mental math we all complain about), and if you could see it over the nose, you could land there (you former drivers know what I mean).
I don't advocate the pay for training route. Sure it might help you out but you are screwing those who follow. You will get to where you want to go either way. Do it right.
If you have that kind of money why don't you just buy a cargo 727 for about $800,000 that is what they are selling for right now. Then all you have to do is fill it up with fuel and you can do whatever you want. You might even be able to get a few PFT buddies to chip in for the gas. What you are proposing is going to a week baseball camp then showing up during spring training at a pro-team and saying sign me, I paid to be here... have fun.
lear24
Country pilot
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2001
- Posts
- 226
I'd say do whatever makes you happy, but I can also testify that 727 SIC time in that quantity is next to useless, especially with low total time. Even cargo outfits don't care, been there, done that. I was furloughed out of my comfy 727 right seat 16 months ago, and have since been able to find work at a regional airline. I am once again facing a furlough, this time with a little advanced warning at least. My 727 time is cute to tell people about, but it doesn't mean much of anything to employers. Look at a few job applications, it doesn't fill that PIC turbine slot, which is an important one. Sure it's SIC jet, and multi, but does it really show that you have experience if you bought it? Earning the experience is part of it all too, there's a reason birds don't fly when they're first born.
Whatever you choose to do, don't count on getting a job as a professional pilot anytime soon, there are lots of guys pounding the pavement with a lot of time. You might want to wait until things get a little nicer if you're going to be jumping ship at a decent job. I will soon be on the street and am thinking about grad school and maybe getting a job at Wendy's. Good luck.
Whatever you choose to do, don't count on getting a job as a professional pilot anytime soon, there are lots of guys pounding the pavement with a lot of time. You might want to wait until things get a little nicer if you're going to be jumping ship at a decent job. I will soon be on the street and am thinking about grad school and maybe getting a job at Wendy's. Good luck.
Re: 727 right seat time is worthless....
Both of the above statements couldn't be further from the truth. Quit reading the ads you see. They are crap. This line of bull has been fed to people for the past 15 years! There will never be a shortage. In many cases salaries are going down and with the economy in the toilet many may be giving up on the career. There are still plenty of people to fill the seats. Even JO the CEO at Mesa has said point blank to his employees that he would have no problem filling the seats if his people went on strike for more money.
2 years ago you could have gotten a job with much less time than today. You also might be on the street today right after you thought your career was starting to take off. There are no short-cuts. You have to pay your dues. If there was an honest short cut I would take it. I am 33 and would like to get to a regional as soon as possible but there aren't any. Folks that go to places like Gulfstream just screw others in the industry. Just because it worked for your friend doesn't make it right. Soon we will have people willing to fly a 737 for $12,000 a year. While it may be a reality that salaries in general will come down you can't promote crap like Gulfstream or this 727 place. Go out on the ramp and talk to a few more people.
Good luck,
AZPilot
ILSRWY15 said:
Both of the above statements couldn't be further from the truth. Quit reading the ads you see. They are crap. This line of bull has been fed to people for the past 15 years! There will never be a shortage. In many cases salaries are going down and with the economy in the toilet many may be giving up on the career. There are still plenty of people to fill the seats. Even JO the CEO at Mesa has said point blank to his employees that he would have no problem filling the seats if his people went on strike for more money.
2 years ago you could have gotten a job with much less time than today. You also might be on the street today right after you thought your career was starting to take off. There are no short-cuts. You have to pay your dues. If there was an honest short cut I would take it. I am 33 and would like to get to a regional as soon as possible but there aren't any. Folks that go to places like Gulfstream just screw others in the industry. Just because it worked for your friend doesn't make it right. Soon we will have people willing to fly a 737 for $12,000 a year. While it may be a reality that salaries in general will come down you can't promote crap like Gulfstream or this 727 place. Go out on the ramp and talk to a few more people.
Good luck,
AZPilot
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