Time Building in a B727

[Eskimo_ghost]

No need to pay for it. I know of a certain airline that hires FO's with 1000-1500tt to fly 727's. They hire FE's with little more than 250tt. The last class of FO's FE's comprised 11 people. Only one had more than 1500tt.

Who?????????

 

[de727ups]

"Whatever is takes".....

"One thing I do know for sure is that I will do whatever it takes for me to get my office at FL350."

"Whatever it takes" can mean a lot of things....some not good.

It could mean you are willing to be a scab....

It could mean you are willing to go through a Gulftream program that is bad for the piloting profession because you pay to work in the seat rather than the traditional method of actually paying a pilot to sit there....

Or it could mean you are willing to bust your butt working your way up the ladder like most other people....

I'm a 727 F/O....and I can tell you it's not the sort of thing a low time, light airplane guy should be doing. Yeah...they do it in Europe and they do it in the military....but those type of training programs are highly selective and much more intensive...and expensive....than the normal training paths we all went though.

I did very little instructing even though I had the CFI early on. I wasn't the type to go around beating on doors...which hurt me....but I got a job flying the canyon, instead. If you are frustrated about the way things are or the way things work....welcome to the club....we have all been there. There are times in aviation where low end, time building jobs are easy to find and there are times when they aren't. I've been though two cycles of both. "Whatever it takes" means finding a way to stick out the bad times and move up during the good....time and patience are important.

 

[bobbysamd]

Hey, Jedi

You can't really use the anti-CFI argument in your case. I appreciate your position. You're caught between running your business, which is flight instruction, and flight instructing. You are to be commended, though, for seeing that your employees are working (and building time) instead of hogging all the flight time and work for yourself. You're apparently doing the right thing by your people, and you're someone I'd want to work for.

You can't really lump Mesa Pilot Development into per se P-F-T. I worked there for a while. Students get no guarantees. They are told only that they have a chance for a Mesa interview if they exemplify themselves as quality people and maintain a "B" average in their flight courses. No one is promised "the interview." They do graduate with 300 hours with 10 of 1900 turbine, and are virtually line-ready. It is a good program. The distinguishing aspect of MAPD from per se P-F-T is although students are imbued with Mesa line procedures their Commercial-Instrument-Multis can be shopped anywhere. Mesa has hired a large percentage of MAPD grads. It is true that MAPD is a cash cow for the company. Students were paying $35K+ eight years ago. I have no idea how much it is now. Of course, one thing Mesa was always good at was contriving cash cows and making money.

You can say the same thing about Comair not being P-F-T per se. Those students pay plenty. The best become instructors, and the best of that group are hired.

Decent discussion, considering its early flamebait potential.

 

[Tri-holer]

My $.02.

Is the right seat 727 time any good? I went the route where I started as an engineer with about 500 hours. I flew on the side to get the requisite time to upgrade. I now have 1000+ hours in the right seat (paid for by the company) and just under 2300 TT. I can't get anyone flying 72's to look at me, much less anything bigger. I am darn happy to have an interview with a regional scheduled.

Could I have gotten here flying as a CFI? Sure. I would probably have a few years of seniority at a regional and would probably not be furloughed right now. Do I regret the path I took? Not at all. Not only is life too short for regrets but we all do the best we can.

And anyway. I loved every minute flying the Triassic jet. I am probably spoiled for the future. A great plane to hand fly (and with cargo and not passengers, there were no complaints from the rough ride at first), not automated (had to do all that mental math we all complain about), and if you could see it over the nose, you could land there (you former drivers know what I mean).

I don't advocate the pay for training route. Sure it might help you out but you are screwing those who follow. You will get to where you want to go either way. Do it right.

 

[TurboS7]

If you have that kind of money why don't you just buy a cargo 727 for about $800,000 that is what they are selling for right now. Then all you have to do is fill it up with fuel and you can do whatever you want. You might even be able to get a few PFT buddies to chip in for the gas. What you are proposing is going to a week baseball camp then showing up during spring training at a pro-team and saying sign me, I paid to be here... have fun.

 

[ILSRWY15]

TurboS7

Obviously total time does not equate intelligence.

 

[alimaui]

If you have that kind of money why don't you just buy a cargo 727 for about $800,000 that is what they are selling for right now. Then all you have to do is fill it up with fuel and you can do whatever you want. You might even be able to get a few PFT buddies to chip in for the gas. What you are proposing is going to a week baseball camp then showing up during spring training at a pro-team and saying sign me, I paid to be here... have fun.

Turbo,
Please save this response for the next PFT idiot who thinks his "non PFT" opportunity awesome. (When we all know what is and isnt too good to be true)

Ali

 

[lear24]

I'd say do whatever makes you happy, but I can also testify that 727 SIC time in that quantity is next to useless, especially with low total time. Even cargo outfits don't care, been there, done that. I was furloughed out of my comfy 727 right seat 16 months ago, and have since been able to find work at a regional airline. I am once again facing a furlough, this time with a little advanced warning at least. My 727 time is cute to tell people about, but it doesn't mean much of anything to employers. Look at a few job applications, it doesn't fill that PIC turbine slot, which is an important one. Sure it's SIC jet, and multi, but does it really show that you have experience if you bought it? Earning the experience is part of it all too, there's a reason birds don't fly when they're first born.

Whatever you choose to do, don't count on getting a job as a professional pilot anytime soon, there are lots of guys pounding the pavement with a lot of time. You might want to wait until things get a little nicer if you're going to be jumping ship at a decent job. I will soon be on the street and am thinking about grad school and maybe getting a job at Wendy's. Good luck.

 

[azpilot]

Re: 727 right seat time is worthless....

BigFlyr and everyone.

One thing is clear and I have heard this (I am sure you have as well) from people in the industry. Things are going to change.
A lot of pilots are going to be retiring very soon and for the next several years. There is going to create quite a void.

The military pool is not going to be able to fill this void due to strides made in retention. I have lots of C-17 pilot friends that are going to re-up based on better incentives from the goverment.
g.

Both of the above statements couldn't be further from the truth. Quit reading the ads you see. They are crap. This line of bull has been fed to people for the past 15 years! There will never be a shortage. In many cases salaries are going down and with the economy in the toilet many may be giving up on the career. There are still plenty of people to fill the seats. Even JO the CEO at Mesa has said point blank to his employees that he would have no problem filling the seats if his people went on strike for more money.

2 years ago you could have gotten a job with much less time than today. You also might be on the street today right after you thought your career was starting to take off. There are no short-cuts. You have to pay your dues. If there was an honest short cut I would take it. I am 33 and would like to get to a regional as soon as possible but there aren't any. Folks that go to places like Gulfstream just screw others in the industry. Just because it worked for your friend doesn't make it right. Soon we will have people willing to fly a 737 for $12,000 a year. While it may be a reality that salaries in general will come down you can't promote crap like Gulfstream or this 727 place. Go out on the ramp and talk to a few more people.

Good luck,
AZPilot

 

[bobbysamd]

Superb post, AZ Pilot, on every point. I, too, at age 40 would have taken an honest shortcut if such a thing was available.

Has Mr. O been reading about those scoundrels E.L. Cord and Ted Baker again?

 

[JediNein]

Location of Time Building program

I researched this program, along with a few other "heavy jet SIC" ones. In some of the programs, the student gets their training in the U.S. In some of the programs, the training is done overseas.

In all of the programs, the flight time is in Saudi Arabia, Eastern Europe, and a few other non-U.S. domestic places.


Food for thought. . .

 

[bobbysamd]

And, probably, accomodations aren't included in the P-F-T tuition.

 

[JediNein]

And I don't think you get an anit-flak jacket or combat pay.

Some of those areas are not quite friendly to Americans of any origin.

I'll have to ask how many of their students come back alive.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[kilomike]

Great post, AZpilot!

Well said.

There never was and never will be a pilot shortage. I can attest to that.

I could wallpaper a whole room with the number of rejection letters I got from regional airlines despite having over 2000 TT, a Citation type rating, a master's degree in aeronautical science, clean driving and flying records, and letters of recommendation. Even very well-qualified pilots have difficulty getting their own careers established.

DON'T BELIEVE KIT DARBY'S BULL***T!!!

I am no longer pursuing a full time flying career, knowing that it will be difficult to live on regional pilot's pay which I believe is quite low due to the glut of pilots that has always existed. If there was a REAL shortage of pilots, pilots at regional carriers would make far more than they make now, and also pft would not exist either.

I am starting work shortly as an electrical apprentice with the IBEW and I know that as an apprentice I will make more than most first year regional airline pilots. My ultimate earnings potential once licensed as a master electrician is as high as I want it to be. I am aware of electrical contractors making into the millions annually. With a skilled trade and a college education, and the desire to succeed, I know I can do far better than I ever could have in the airlines.

Still, I miss the travelling and flying, but I don't miss the low pay and degrading working conditions found at the regional I once flew for.

Now I fly for pleasure, and I believe that this is the best way to pursue the flying dream, through a personal aircraft flown for pleasure.

Fly safe!!

kilomike