Thrust reverse...

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wow.... the nose wheel discussion...

Unless there is an aircraft specific limitation that says not too...

Real pilots deploy the TR with the nose wheel UP!! Get into the books then get back to this thread....

 

[Diesel]

Ummm can the Rev even join in this discussion since we all know the regionals are trying to save 3 cents a landing by avoiding TR useage.

Cessna has told us not to deploy unless the nose wheel is down to prevent they hydraulic spike.

 

[j41driver]

deleted

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The 717 reversers won't deploy until the nose wheel is on the ground regardless of what you've done with the levers in the cockpit. Something about the big buckets coming too close to the ground with the nose in the air.

CRJ reverse thrust seemed to be pretty much useless except as a noise maker.

DoJet didn't have it...didn't need it. Big carbon brakes worked really well.

717 limitation might be a DC-9 carry over... anyone??

CRJ.... works good last long time...

Dork.... straight wing.......

 

[FL420]

Are those of you who think it's okay to deploy the reversers with the nosewheel in the air, especially those of you with wing-mounted engines, absolutely sure you have enough rudder authority to keep it between the white lines if only one reverser deploys or spools up?

 

[j41driver]

Not sure why I deleted my post...meant to in another thread. Maybe it's time to put the beer away.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Are those of you who think it's okay to deploy the reversers with the nosewheel in the air, especially those of you with wing-mounted engines, absolutely sure you have enough rudder authority to keep it between the white lines if only one reverser deploys or spools up?

Perhaps my tailwheel time gives me a false sense of security... most guys give up about five feet off the ground with Xcross winds, side gear loads and no aileron during roll out..... but I don't stop flying the jet till its clear of the runway..... that includes TR deployment.

Since TR is most effective at higher speeds... An effective way to use TR is to get the reversers configured while the TW is still up, meaning the buckets or cascades deployed. Once the nose wheel is down then increase the thrust from idle. This way one is not wasting time waiting for the NW to derotate as stopping distance is reduced....

What is really comes down to is policy. Otherwise it is just technique...

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Not a carry-over from DC9/MD80

717 limitation might be a DC-9 carry over... anyone??

.....I did not know that about the B717. It is not a carry-over from the DC9 or MD80. Both versions of the DC9 type will allow the TRs to deploy regardless of the nose wheel position.

Tid Bit: SAS had a technique of flying Ref + 5 over the numbers and deploying the TRs just before touch down. This was used when landing on short, icy runways with auto-brakes and spoilers. At least that is what a couple of former SAS pilots told me.

 

[400A]

.....I did not know that about the B717. It is not a carry-over from the DC9 or MD80. Both versions of the DC9 type will allow the TRs to deploy regardless of the nose wheel position.

Tid Bit: SAS had a technique of flying Ref + 5 over the numbers and deploying the TRs just before touch down. This was used when landing on short, icy runways with auto-brakes and spoilers. At least that is what a couple of former SAS pilots told me.

Did squat switches allow that? The DC-8 was the only one I had ever heard of reversing in flight.

I did know of an idiot that used to do it in a E-90. Scared the crap out of me.

 

[400A]

Since TR is most effective at higher speeds... An effective way to use TR is to get the reversers configured while the TW is still up, meaning the buckets or cascades deployed. Once the nose wheel is down then increase the thrust from idle. This way one is not wasting time waiting for the NW to derotate as stopping distance is reduced....

What is really comes down to is policy. Otherwise it is just technique...

That is exactly the way we do it. It helps the nose gear sit down softer as well. As you mentioned, I have flown with many guys who relax the entire yoke the minute one wheel touches. YUK!!!!

 

[G21Agoose]

Did squat switches allow that? The DC-8 was the only one I had ever heard of reversing in flight.

I did know of an idiot that used to do it in a E-90. Scared the crap out of me.

I believe the Lauda 767 had reversers deploy in flight.

In the Falcon we stick our head out the window and blow backwards.

 

[Munga]

It would also depend on the type of brakes you have. Some work better and last longer if you use them when hot, so the technique would be to use them most of the time during landing so they heat up quick and not bother with the TRs. This way you reduce wear while taxing at some of the bigger airports/ I don't like that technique or policy, but it makes sense if you replace brakes more than maintain the TRs.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Squat switch vs. ground shift mechanism

Did squat switches allow that? The DC-8 was the only one I had ever heard of reversing in flight.

I did know of an idiot that used to do it in a E-90. Scared the crap out of me.

DC9/MD80 has a squat switch on the mains, but the ground shift mechanism works on the nose wheel (compression on the nose strut).

As far as I know it does not effect the TRs. I have never used that techinique. However, when I was an F/O I saw a Captain deploy the TRs before main wheel touch down and spoiler deployment. The plane was floating in ground effect with a down sloping rwy. It worked out fine, but it got my attention.

 

[LJ45]

In the Falcon we stick our head out the window and blow

LMFAO

 

[hawker]

I know from my maintenance background ual 737 had an option to deploy reversers 10ft agl (works off ra) for short runway landing. One crew did this and put the mains through the wings OUCH!!

 

[TXDA2000]

I used to fly with a guy in a Sabre 40 that deployed them in the flare on really short runways. Worked really well in that aircraft. A no-no in the 60.

There are as many TR techiniques as there are aircraft. Use what works best for yours.

In the 2000, there is a sw on the nose gear, so it has to be down.

 

[ultrarunner]

717 limitation might be a DC-9 carry over... anyone??

Nope, not a limitation on the DC-9 series. I'd have to dig out the rules book however. I seem recall TR deployment was authorized as long as the nose was on it's way down. Some airlines however has SOP's against it.

If I recall, U was a big advocate of operating that way for brake longevity. The also pretty much as autobrakes as an SOP.

 

[Archie Bunker]

Real pilots deploy the TR with the nose wheel UP!!

Not in the last couple of jets I've flown....

From the Citation X pilot training manual.....
Caution: Thrust reversers should not be deployed until the nosewheel is on the ground. Airplane pitch up may occur.

At NJA, we are trained not to deploy the TRs until the NW is on ground.

When I flew the MD-88/90 at Delta, it was the same deal. No TRs until the NW was on the ground. The 88 had big buckets that you could easily drag with the nose in the air....it was a major preflight item to check the buckets and make sure the dork before you didn't drag them on the rollout. While the MD-90 didn't have buckets (it had sliding cuff TRs), as a matter of standardization we didn't deploy them either until the NW was on the ground.

I can't remember what we did on the 727 (standardizationwise), but I remember popping in idle reverse a couple of times with the NW still in the air. The nose would pitch up, and you would really have to shove the nose over....not real comfortable, or smooth. I stopped using that technique after a couple of attempts.

 

[MikeMD80]

[quote=Rez O. Lewshun;1163904]717 limitation might be a DC-9 carry over... anyone??

Having flown both the -80 and the 717 (briefly), I can still remember what the company policies were for both A/C. We could open the buckets on the -80 upon main wheel touchdown, but were restricted from applying reverse thrust until the nose wheel was on the ground. This was to due to rudder "block out" where the rudder lost effectiveness due to the reversers being deployed . we were also restricted to 8 degrees of pitch attitude with the buckets deployed.

The 717 policy was not to deploy the reversers at all until the nosewheel was on the ground. This was due to the size of the buckets and their close proximity to the ground with the nose up. Not a real issue as the buckets helped in slowing the plane. Also the 717 had FADEC, so the motors spooled up together very nicely.

In regards to the DC9's. The Ozark drivers were famous for opening the buckets while in the flare just prior to main wheel touchdown. I saw it once holding short of the runway. Amazing how they could time that! I also have flown with a pilot who has about 14,000 hrs on Gulfstreams and he could do it too. Never did get used to it, but it was VERY effective. As a note, the G-II has a Ref speed of 141 knots at MLW. FAST!

And finally, in regards to the debate, brakes over reversers.... there are many circulars out there, based on tests, that show reversers are more effective above 100 kts, and brakes are more effective below 100 kts. So alot of this debate depends on your speed at touchdown,.... and your interest in saving the brakes I guess.

 

[GravityHater]

(it had sliding cuff TRs)

I am looking for a pic or diagram of these.