Thoughts Anyone?

[RueterF16]

I'm sorry guys (and Gals), I'm a strong advocate of women in the cockpit but, this is ridiculous... I've been accused of not being a team player before but, what about this? I was under the understanding that, you lose some of your Constitutional priviledges once you join the military.. Maybe I was mistaken.. This is once again a waste of the militarys time and money, not to mention a disgrace for the Air Force.. If you guys want some real good Martha McSally stories, drop me a private message and we can chat.
Sad thing is shes only 35 and a LTC.. get the picture????

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011205/od/dress_dc_1.html

 

[aggiepilot87]

RueterF16 -

You know this discussion automatically makes us bigoted, chauvanist-pig, angry-white-males in the PC minded world!

It's just like the two foolish women who went to Afghanistan to preach Christianity. They should have been left there after compromising our efforts in Afghanistan with their selfish, stupid antics. It was widely know that they punished this action with beheading or similar.

Sounds like LTC, McSally is pulling similar self-serving antics. Or maybe she's jockeying for a possible political career after the military? Sounds like Hillary and she could set up their own conference on middle eastern/muslum women's rights.

If she'd just worn her abayah while letting her chauffeur drive her out to the mall shopping, I bet she'd have made general by 40!

 

[ExAF]

I guess there are two sides to every story. While I agree that you lose some individual rights when you join the military, I think she sounds like a typical fighter pilot to me. Having spent some time in the desert myself, I found it quite annoying to have to comply with many of the "rules" levied on US forces in Saudi Arabia. However I'm sure that I and any other male in my squadron (there weren't any female fighter pilots then) would have also drawn a "line in the sand" if we were told to wear an abayah or any other mandatory "costume" other than our uniform. I can only imagine what our reaction would have been if they told us we had to wear the same "dresses and dish towels" that the Saudi men typically wore if we wanted to go outside our compound. We wouldn't have put up with that crap and I can definitely understand why she wouldn't either. If she isn't good enough to ride in the front seat unescorted, in her uniform, or some other tasteful attire, then she shouldn't have to serve there. We said the same thing about the women driving fuel and supply trucks during Desert Storm. If the policy was for security reasons, then neither male nor female personnel should be going out of the compound since Americans stick out like a sore thumb there no matter what they are wearing. Sounds like the US needs to grow a pair and tell the Saudis to get bent. Either that or don't put our officers (male or female) in a position that subjects them to second class citizen treatment while protecting Saudi derrieres. Now I say this with the following caveats: 1) I am assuming she went through the proper military channels to render a solution prior to going to the courts and 2) she didn't violate the chain of command in the process. If she didn't give the AF/DOD a chance to rectify the problem prior airing her dirty laundry in public or if she violated the chain of command in the process, then she is definitely pond scum at best and deserves censure. It sounds to me like she thought this was worth "falling on her sword." I'd be willing to bet that her career has "reached its full potential" no matter which way this goes. She may have a hidden agenda or political motives, but it sounds to me like she is acting like any other USAF fighter pilot would react when told to do something absolutely ridiculous or degrading.

 

[RMI]

Okay,

Putting aside the whole women in combat debate, AND putting aside the personal experience I have with this person specifically, anyone who has been to Saudi would have to admit the restrictions put on us were more than a little onerous.

The travel restrictions, the clothing restrictions (button down shirts and long pants for guys), the Saudi people treating us like dung, the inability to have even normal magazines in theater because they were considered pornographic,etc. have served to do nothing but really lower my opinion of the whole region and people in general. What makes it even worse, however, is that the US forces are the only ones who follow all these guidelines. While I'm sweating my nuts off in my nice clothes, the Brits are walking around in spandex. Now, I don't want to run around wearing spandex (sigh of relief from everyone), but it would be nice to wear normal shorts and T-shirts. I never could figure out why we made ourselves play the game when the french and Brits did not.

As far as the person, McSally has always had her own agenda that, to her, was more important than anything else.

 

[RueterF16]

Not a flame post

Okay, Not to start a flame here but....
I agree that the restrictions in Saudi are by far too stringent especially for Americans. Unfortunately for us, we can't just impose our lifestyle on other cultures.. (wish we could but we can't .) As far as the Brits and Frogs doing what ever they want, that's probably because, they could leave the ball game and not too many people would notice.. Just my opinion, based on several years worth of experience with both. (Not that they are worthless, they aren't. just saying that we could run the show without them..) As far as keeping the Saudiis happy, yeah, that's what we're doing, we could in all likelyhood take over that region but, then we would have to live there... not high on my list.
Anyway, the point to this whole thread was that we have yet again an undeserving individual making waves for the military because of their personal agenda... man I wish I could be in their shoes..... oh to dream......

 

[RMI]

Agreed on McSally,

But, unfortunately, the military is far from being the only place where this takes place.


It seems a little disingenuous to say we would be forcing our lifestyle on the Saudi's. Heck, we were confined to our little "infidels-only" enclave. Not much cultural interaction going on. Matter of fact, as I remember, they did try to get a Saudi eagle squadron on the base but their people kept walking into the women's shower and living tents (definitely uninvited). Seems to me like respect should go both ways. Oh......that is unless you're looked at as being an inferior people who are only a bunch of mercenaries anyway.

 

[xhercdriver]

Hehe plenty of stupidity to go around on this one...

The base commander is an idiot for imposing "excess" restrictions which have the effect of making his personnel feel "ashamed" of being American or "afraid" to be recognized as American, while hiding behind that "force protection" crap. Seems to me the Saudis share some responsibility for "force protection" and some responsibility for "moderation" when dealing with an ALLY without whom they'd be part of Iraq now. That commander is covering his butt firmly, at the expense of his troops' morale. No news there tho...

LTC McSally is an idiot for not just "saluting smartly" and marching on for 3 freeking months. Or even 12 if that's how long she's there for. If she's an O-5 at 35, then she ought to be smart enough to realize she's a "goldern girl," and can write her own ticket if she just "plays the game." Apparently she's a little TOO "fighter pilot" to know when to just "shut up and color." She seems to be practically a poster child for the "New Air Force Woman," yet she's going to throw that away over a stupid local commander's policy? Like she never had to deal with one before? Sheesh. Also a bit self-centered if she can't see that the things she objects to are just symptoms of a far more serious problem in the way Saudi treats us.
Guess she either wasn't perceptive enough or wasn't "courageous" enough to take on the REAL issue--the way we "snivel" and "hide" our Americanism in Saudi--which is WHY she has to wear what she doesn't like and can't worship as she chooses (although I'm not buying that one--somehow I suspect there are chaplains and Christian services at Al's Garage).

Either way, living proof that the "new" AF promotion system doesn't REALLY work

 

[Draginass]

McSally ought to shut up.

The US government should tell the Saudi's to pound sand up their butt.

 

[ex nav]

Needs to Grow Up

Sue the Sec of Defense? Miss McSally needs to grow up.

A Lt Col at 35??? as a retired Lt Col (soon to join up again after the furlough) I am assamed of the immaturity she displays.

This seems to have more to do with her ego than anything else. Wonder if she ever heard of the "ugly American" saying?

She epitomizes the ugly American. I'll bet she refuses to take her shoes off, eat with chop sticks and bow (as a greeting, NOT to show subservience) in Japan, Korea, etc., drive on the opposite side of the road in England, drink warm beer in Germany and say "Good-Day" in Australia, etc., etc. What happened to enjoy the different cultures and not try imposing yourself on others?

Her lawsuit says the SecDef “violates her First Amendment constitutional right to practice her Christian faith freely and to not have a religion imposed on her”. Wearing the Hibiya in Saudi is not imposing a religion on her and she is free to worship at Al's Garage as she sees fit.

She only has to wear the Hibiya when she goes off base ON MWR TOURS/SHOPPING. If she does not want to wear it FINE, just buy your stuff in the BX and skip the tours. Oh, I forgot, that would be TOO HARD and not advance her agenda and get her name in the headlines.

The commanders will probably have to stop allowing everyone (or maybe just females) "off base" on these MWR tours because of her inability to follow rules.

I have been deploying to Saudi since 1981 and have been with many females who had "no problem" complying with the Saudi customs, riding in the back of the bus/car and wearing the Hibiya. We met several Saudi's and got invited to their homes and have great memories of out deployments because we tried not to be the ugly Americans.

Agree that the Saudis "as a group" are a bunch of hypocrites (ref. post above on the showers) but that does not mean we need to stoop to their level. Individually Saudis can be your best "friend" and will do anything for you once they are your friend. However, I'm sure even Miss McSally would agree you do not make many friends when you enter someone’s country and do not respect their laws, customs, and courtesies. She would never be welcome in my home either as she probably would not honor my wife’s custom of not wearing shoes in the house because it violated her rights in some absurd way.

I wonder what the WWII vets have to say about her trying to sue the SecDef?

I'll bet she hates the Navy too because they call O-5s Commanders, not Lieutenant Colonels........Wonder if that violates her rights? Maybe she will get a lawyer (and have someone else pay for it)

 

[Visceral]

Nothing will matter once the Saudis kick us out anyway. We shouldn't be in that God forsaken country anyway 10 years after DS. I've been to many of our installations in that region, and we can do almost as much without Saudi as with them. Plus, at the other installations, you aren't allowed off base usually, so the headdress issue is a nonplayer.

 

[ex nav]

Michael,

Many have said hope she used the chain of command before filing the lawsuit. I think filing a lawsiut is absurd, if you are in the military you follow legal orders, and there is nothing illegal about this order.

Miss McSally does not have to go off the compound for anything except to mix with the Saudi culture shopping or on a MWR tour. This is the only time she would be required to wear the Hibiya. If she stays on base she IS NOT required to wear anything., Males have to wear long pants, no tee shirts, etc. off base on no one is suing anyone over that. Agree that women have to put up with more but that's not my point. If she hates the Saudi culture then fine, don't experience it and stay on the base. Wear shorts or anything else you care to. Don't sue someone because you think you are inconvenienced, buy your souvenirs at the BX.

Please do not bring up human rights into this discussion. It has nothing to do with being an ugly American. That is my only point.

I agree 100% with you that we can impose our culture on others in various ways, our consumer goods, our efforts in the human rights arena, etc. This is, after all, what we stand for and we should set the example for the world.

There is however, a respect for others that Miss McSally ignores. I say again, she seems to be out to get her name in the headlines and out to advance her agenda, whatever it is. This is my only point.

Fighting for human rights is worthy and noble endeavor. Comparing wearing a Hibiya with human rights violations cheapens the argument. Believe me, as one who has been to Saudi countless times, going off base is THE ONLY TIME Miss McSally is required to wear the headdress. Remember, she IS NOT required to go off base "as a civilian" to accomplish her mission over there. When she is on duty, she wears the uniform just like everyone else, male and female.

Don't lecture about Canada. Have you ever been to Mexico? They certainly do not have a stellar human rights record either. Again, human rights have nothing to do with this discussion.

Finally you are correct with the oil logic. Our country needs to have a long term energy policy, however, Pres. Carter was the last one to propose conservation, with his 55 mph national highway speedlimit, tax credits for solar power and wind power, etc. and where did it get him? Again, I agree with you that until we as a nation wean ourselves of our tremendous oil consumption we will have to "put up" with listening to the Saudis and others.

 

[Michael Knight]

Ex Nav,

Actually I do agree that a lawsuit is absurd but I don't profess to know the circumstances that led to it.

Maybe I went off on a tangent with human rights but that is because I'm not a big fan of middle eastern politics or their stance on human rights. I just feel America should use more leverage when dealing with their governments. I'm not talking about the ones we are bombing or have bombed.

Peace,
Mike

 

[SpeedRacer]

"Empty Kitchen"

I look forward to the day she is booted out of the Air Force or retires (at 35 -geez), either way, I propose a grassroots effort to "black-ball" her if/when she applies for the airlines.

I don't give a hoot about any of the above posts - word is she's a c**t and I would not want to fly with her at my carrier.

At my carrier we have the opportunity to turn in recommendations (favorable or NOT) for any new candidate - just let me know when she's getting out - heck no, I'll submit one tomorrow to start burning her "bridge". I'll do my part!

Life's too short to have to put up with crap from an " empty kitchen" like McSally....God knows what mess she'll create as an airline pilot.....

 

[Herky Girl]

Does it not seem odd to any of you that Laura Bush made such a big deal about liberating the Afghan women while US military women are forced to wear those ridiculous outfits in Saudi? The policy is not even from the Saudi government. The policy is from the US military bureacracy. The generals just don't want any bad press on their watch.

I am proud of Martha, as she has the guts to stand for what she feels is right. I also feel that she, as possibly the ranking female officer in the AOR, has the responsibility to right any policies that are detrimental to women serving in the AOR. I am not saying that we should be allowed to run around Riyahd in bikinis. That would be stupid. Everyone, including men, should always go out in a group for mutual support. That way, when the Mutaawa come around, they have too many witnesses to mess with the ugly Americans too much.

One final thought to ponder...what if the US Military entered South Africa to protect it from a neighboring nation...what if Aparthied was still in place and the host nation requried that US African American military personnel be housed in separate barracks and were not allowed to eat in the same mess hall as whites. They cannot drive and can't be out in public with whites.

50 years ago, this would not sound so far-fetched, but, today, we will not put up with this sort of systematic discrimination.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[RMI]

Wow! comparing having to wear a head covering with apartheid......that's a HUGE stretch!!!!!

You might want to check your sense of proportion. Last I checked, no one was scarred for life (physically, emotionally, or economically) from having to wear a Hibiya. I can understand solidarity with another female, as it always helps to have someone around to understand your perspective, but don't let that blind you to what shes actually doing here. This is about personal publicity, pure and simple.

 

[ex nav]

"I also feel that she, as possibly the ranking female officer in the AOR, has the responsibility to right any policies that are detrimental to women serving in the AOR."

When the military becomes compartmentalized into "the highest ranking female, highest ranking Latino, highest ranking African American, highest ranking Arab, highest ranking WASP male" then it loses it's ability to fight (or in the AF case; fly, fight, and win). The military is not a place for "social experiments" despite what Pres. Clinton tried to do. The military exists to "kill people and break things" if our civilian leadership determines it is in this nation's national interest and/or for defensive purposes. That is it. No more and no less. Breaking the military into groups that where policies that said groups feel may be detrimental to it's own interests IS WRONG. you cannot have a cohesive fighting force if you have to "look over your shoulder" or "wonder who will sue if they do not like your orders" because they do not "advance the subgroup's agenda."

Don't get me wrong, the military can "lead social change" like it did when the US was still segregated and the military integrated. This is good and should continue.

What the military should not have do or not have to put up with, is someone who does not follow legal orders and cannot put "service before self" continuing to advance an agenda via the legal system (and have someone else who probably hates the military pay for it). I say again, suing the SecDef because you believe you are inconvenienced is absurd.

I guess that's my 6 cents worth.........


PS comparing Laura Bush's remarks about the Taliban and what they have done to women and clildren to the Saudi (and other Arab) culture and customs shows just how misinformed we can be. That is akin to calling all Muslims Arabs, etc, etc.

 

[JimNtexas]

Fire her a**!

This individual does not have the maturity to be an airmen, let alone an O-5.

It was fine for her to take her petty little complaint up the chain of command. But when she was told "no", her job was to salute smartly, shut up about it, and go fly her jet. Period.

How can she ever expect to give an unpopular order to anyone else and have it taken seriously? Would she have any right at all to complain if a subordinate questioned any or all orders she might issue?

The Air Force is full of rules that seem (and often are) silly and arbitrary. If she can't accept that, then she needs to find another line of work. Heck, as a navigator if I had sued everytime my feelings were hurt I'd have spent all my time in federal court.

By encouraging all the worthless barracks lawyers in the service she seriously damages good order and discipline. She should receive a referral OPR and be removed from flying status for her highly imature and unprofessional conduct.

Strong message follows.

Jim

 

[Draginass]

Our service people should wear conservative clothing in line with our own culture and if the Saudi's don't like it, we ought to tell them to pound sand. I've had about enough of cowtowing to the Saudi's for the priviledge of protecting their sorry, lazy, corrupt, hypocritical asses.

 

[T1bubba]

She's still making news...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134388267_flier08.html

T1bubba

 

[RueterF16]

Are you joking??

Makes her sound good??? Did you even read the article? Have you really been associated with the military? This isn't a case of shooting unarmed civilians, it's a case of not following orders. LEGAL Orders!! Women's rights advocates would love to win this one because then they could try and get even more from the military. The next thing will be a comprehensive change in the promotion system to ensure that women receive a proportionate amount of the promotions, regardless of capabilities. It's called quota filling and is never good for anyone.
Did you notice that the article was (of course) written by a woman, she only spoke at a school for (once again) women. and nothing was ever mentioned about whether she responded to questions such as," Don't you think that by taking an oath to follow orders, you're in violation of that oath by not following them? McSally does not have the right or the wherewithall to determine what is or isn't a lawful order. Her determination that it is unconstitutional is a moot point. She doesn't get that option. She needs to a) Shut up and color, or b) get the **&$ out of the military and move on to some other form of work. I know her personally and she is NOT worthy of all the praise she is recieving for putting this before a court....