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Thoughts Anyone?

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Active member
Nov 29, 2001
I'm sorry guys (and Gals), I'm a strong advocate of women in the cockpit but, this is ridiculous... I've been accused of not being a team player before but, what about this? I was under the understanding that, you lose some of your Constitutional priviledges once you join the military.. Maybe I was mistaken.. This is once again a waste of the militarys time and money, not to mention a disgrace for the Air Force.. If you guys want some real good Martha McSally stories, drop me a private message and we can chat.
Sad thing is shes only 35 and a LTC.. get the picture????

RueterF16 -

You know this discussion automatically makes us bigoted, chauvanist-pig, angry-white-males in the PC minded world!

It's just like the two foolish women who went to Afghanistan to preach Christianity. They should have been left there after compromising our efforts in Afghanistan with their selfish, stupid antics. It was widely know that they punished this action with beheading or similar.

Sounds like LTC, McSally is pulling similar self-serving antics. Or maybe she's jockeying for a possible political career after the military? Sounds like Hillary and she could set up their own conference on middle eastern/muslum women's rights.

If she'd just worn her abayah while letting her chauffeur drive her out to the mall shopping, I bet she'd have made general by 40!
I guess there are two sides to every story. While I agree that you lose some individual rights when you join the military, I think she sounds like a typical fighter pilot to me. Having spent some time in the desert myself, I found it quite annoying to have to comply with many of the "rules" levied on US forces in Saudi Arabia. However I'm sure that I and any other male in my squadron (there weren't any female fighter pilots then) would have also drawn a "line in the sand" if we were told to wear an abayah or any other mandatory "costume" other than our uniform. I can only imagine what our reaction would have been if they told us we had to wear the same "dresses and dish towels" that the Saudi men typically wore if we wanted to go outside our compound. We wouldn't have put up with that crap and I can definitely understand why she wouldn't either. If she isn't good enough to ride in the front seat unescorted, in her uniform, or some other tasteful attire, then she shouldn't have to serve there. We said the same thing about the women driving fuel and supply trucks during Desert Storm. If the policy was for security reasons, then neither male nor female personnel should be going out of the compound since Americans stick out like a sore thumb there no matter what they are wearing. Sounds like the US needs to grow a pair and tell the Saudis to get bent. Either that or don't put our officers (male or female) in a position that subjects them to second class citizen treatment while protecting Saudi derrieres. Now I say this with the following caveats: 1) I am assuming she went through the proper military channels to render a solution prior to going to the courts and 2) she didn't violate the chain of command in the process. If she didn't give the AF/DOD a chance to rectify the problem prior airing her dirty laundry in public or if she violated the chain of command in the process, then she is definitely pond scum at best and deserves censure. It sounds to me like she thought this was worth "falling on her sword." I'd be willing to bet that her career has "reached its full potential" no matter which way this goes. She may have a hidden agenda or political motives, but it sounds to me like she is acting like any other USAF fighter pilot would react when told to do something absolutely ridiculous or degrading.

Putting aside the whole women in combat debate, AND putting aside the personal experience I have with this person specifically, anyone who has been to Saudi would have to admit the restrictions put on us were more than a little onerous.

The travel restrictions, the clothing restrictions (button down shirts and long pants for guys), the Saudi people treating us like dung, the inability to have even normal magazines in theater because they were considered pornographic,etc. have served to do nothing but really lower my opinion of the whole region and people in general. What makes it even worse, however, is that the US forces are the only ones who follow all these guidelines. While I'm sweating my nuts off in my nice clothes, the Brits are walking around in spandex. Now, I don't want to run around wearing spandex (sigh of relief from everyone), but it would be nice to wear normal shorts and T-shirts. I never could figure out why we made ourselves play the game when the french and Brits did not.

As far as the person, McSally has always had her own agenda that, to her, was more important than anything else.
Not a flame post

Okay, Not to start a flame here but....
I agree that the restrictions in Saudi are by far too stringent especially for Americans. Unfortunately for us, we can't just impose our lifestyle on other cultures.. (wish we could but we can't .) As far as the Brits and Frogs doing what ever they want, that's probably because, they could leave the ball game and not too many people would notice.. Just my opinion, based on several years worth of experience with both. (Not that they are worthless, they aren't. just saying that we could run the show without them..) As far as keeping the Saudiis happy, yeah, that's what we're doing, we could in all likelyhood take over that region but, then we would have to live there... not high on my list.
Anyway, the point to this whole thread was that we have yet again an undeserving individual making waves for the military because of their personal agenda... man I wish I could be in their shoes..... oh to dream......
Agreed on McSally,

But, unfortunately, the military is far from being the only place where this takes place.

It seems a little disingenuous to say we would be forcing our lifestyle on the Saudi's. Heck, we were confined to our little "infidels-only" enclave. Not much cultural interaction going on. Matter of fact, as I remember, they did try to get a Saudi eagle squadron on the base but their people kept walking into the women's shower and living tents (definitely uninvited). Seems to me like respect should go both ways. Oh......that is unless you're looked at as being an inferior people who are only a bunch of mercenaries anyway.
Hehe plenty of stupidity to go around on this one...

The base commander is an idiot for imposing "excess" restrictions which have the effect of making his personnel feel "ashamed" of being American or "afraid" to be recognized as American, while hiding behind that "force protection" crap. Seems to me the Saudis share some responsibility for "force protection" and some responsibility for "moderation" when dealing with an ALLY without whom they'd be part of Iraq now. That commander is covering his butt firmly, at the expense of his troops' morale. No news there tho...

LTC McSally is an idiot for not just "saluting smartly" and marching on for 3 freeking months. Or even 12 if that's how long she's there for. If she's an O-5 at 35, then she ought to be smart enough to realize she's a "goldern girl," and can write her own ticket if she just "plays the game." Apparently she's a little TOO "fighter pilot" to know when to just "shut up and color." She seems to be practically a poster child for the "New Air Force Woman," yet she's going to throw that away over a stupid local commander's policy? Like she never had to deal with one before? Sheesh. Also a bit self-centered if she can't see that the things she objects to are just symptoms of a far more serious problem in the way Saudi treats us.
Guess she either wasn't perceptive enough or wasn't "courageous" enough to take on the REAL issue--the way we "snivel" and "hide" our Americanism in Saudi--which is WHY she has to wear what she doesn't like and can't worship as she chooses (although I'm not buying that one--somehow I suspect there are chaplains and Christian services at Al's Garage).

Either way, living proof that the "new" AF promotion system doesn't REALLY work ;)
Needs to Grow Up

Sue the Sec of Defense? Miss McSally needs to grow up.

A Lt Col at 35??? as a retired Lt Col (soon to join up again after the furlough) I am assamed of the immaturity she displays.

This seems to have more to do with her ego than anything else. Wonder if she ever heard of the "ugly American" saying?

She epitomizes the ugly American. I'll bet she refuses to take her shoes off, eat with chop sticks and bow (as a greeting, NOT to show subservience) in Japan, Korea, etc., drive on the opposite side of the road in England, drink warm beer in Germany and say "Good-Day" in Australia, etc., etc. What happened to enjoy the different cultures and not try imposing yourself on others?

Her lawsuit says the SecDef “violates her First Amendment constitutional right to practice her Christian faith freely and to not have a religion imposed on her”. Wearing the Hibiya in Saudi is not imposing a religion on her and she is free to worship at Al's Garage as she sees fit.

She only has to wear the Hibiya when she goes off base ON MWR TOURS/SHOPPING. If she does not want to wear it FINE, just buy your stuff in the BX and skip the tours. Oh, I forgot, that would be TOO HARD and not advance her agenda and get her name in the headlines.

The commanders will probably have to stop allowing everyone (or maybe just females) "off base" on these MWR tours because of her inability to follow rules.

I have been deploying to Saudi since 1981 and have been with many females who had "no problem" complying with the Saudi customs, riding in the back of the bus/car and wearing the Hibiya. We met several Saudi's and got invited to their homes and have great memories of out deployments because we tried not to be the ugly Americans.

Agree that the Saudis "as a group" are a bunch of hypocrites (ref. post above on the showers) but that does not mean we need to stoop to their level. Individually Saudis can be your best "friend" and will do anything for you once they are your friend. However, I'm sure even Miss McSally would agree you do not make many friends when you enter someone’s country and do not respect their laws, customs, and courtesies. She would never be welcome in my home either as she probably would not honor my wife’s custom of not wearing shoes in the house because it violated her rights in some absurd way.

I wonder what the WWII vets have to say about her trying to sue the SecDef?

I'll bet she hates the Navy too because they call O-5s Commanders, not Lieutenant Colonels........Wonder if that violates her rights? Maybe she will get a lawyer (and have someone else pay for it)
Nothing will matter once the Saudis kick us out anyway. We shouldn't be in that God forsaken country anyway 10 years after DS. I've been to many of our installations in that region, and we can do almost as much without Saudi as with them. Plus, at the other installations, you aren't allowed off base usually, so the headdress issue is a nonplayer.

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