Thoughts Anyone?

[ex nav]

Michael,

Many have said hope she used the chain of command before filing the lawsuit. I think filing a lawsiut is absurd, if you are in the military you follow legal orders, and there is nothing illegal about this order.

Miss McSally does not have to go off the compound for anything except to mix with the Saudi culture shopping or on a MWR tour. This is the only time she would be required to wear the Hibiya. If she stays on base she IS NOT required to wear anything., Males have to wear long pants, no tee shirts, etc. off base on no one is suing anyone over that. Agree that women have to put up with more but that's not my point. If she hates the Saudi culture then fine, don't experience it and stay on the base. Wear shorts or anything else you care to. Don't sue someone because you think you are inconvenienced, buy your souvenirs at the BX.

Please do not bring up human rights into this discussion. It has nothing to do with being an ugly American. That is my only point.

I agree 100% with you that we can impose our culture on others in various ways, our consumer goods, our efforts in the human rights arena, etc. This is, after all, what we stand for and we should set the example for the world.

There is however, a respect for others that Miss McSally ignores. I say again, she seems to be out to get her name in the headlines and out to advance her agenda, whatever it is. This is my only point.

Fighting for human rights is worthy and noble endeavor. Comparing wearing a Hibiya with human rights violations cheapens the argument. Believe me, as one who has been to Saudi countless times, going off base is THE ONLY TIME Miss McSally is required to wear the headdress. Remember, she IS NOT required to go off base "as a civilian" to accomplish her mission over there. When she is on duty, she wears the uniform just like everyone else, male and female.

Don't lecture about Canada. Have you ever been to Mexico? They certainly do not have a stellar human rights record either. Again, human rights have nothing to do with this discussion.

Finally you are correct with the oil logic. Our country needs to have a long term energy policy, however, Pres. Carter was the last one to propose conservation, with his 55 mph national highway speedlimit, tax credits for solar power and wind power, etc. and where did it get him? Again, I agree with you that until we as a nation wean ourselves of our tremendous oil consumption we will have to "put up" with listening to the Saudis and others.

 

[Michael Knight]

Ex Nav,

Actually I do agree that a lawsuit is absurd but I don't profess to know the circumstances that led to it.

Maybe I went off on a tangent with human rights but that is because I'm not a big fan of middle eastern politics or their stance on human rights. I just feel America should use more leverage when dealing with their governments. I'm not talking about the ones we are bombing or have bombed.

Peace,
Mike

 

[SpeedRacer]

"Empty Kitchen"

I look forward to the day she is booted out of the Air Force or retires (at 35 -geez), either way, I propose a grassroots effort to "black-ball" her if/when she applies for the airlines.

I don't give a hoot about any of the above posts - word is she's a c**t and I would not want to fly with her at my carrier.

At my carrier we have the opportunity to turn in recommendations (favorable or NOT) for any new candidate - just let me know when she's getting out - heck no, I'll submit one tomorrow to start burning her "bridge". I'll do my part!

Life's too short to have to put up with crap from an " empty kitchen" like McSally....God knows what mess she'll create as an airline pilot.....

 

[Herky Girl]

Does it not seem odd to any of you that Laura Bush made such a big deal about liberating the Afghan women while US military women are forced to wear those ridiculous outfits in Saudi? The policy is not even from the Saudi government. The policy is from the US military bureacracy. The generals just don't want any bad press on their watch.

I am proud of Martha, as she has the guts to stand for what she feels is right. I also feel that she, as possibly the ranking female officer in the AOR, has the responsibility to right any policies that are detrimental to women serving in the AOR. I am not saying that we should be allowed to run around Riyahd in bikinis. That would be stupid. Everyone, including men, should always go out in a group for mutual support. That way, when the Mutaawa come around, they have too many witnesses to mess with the ugly Americans too much.

One final thought to ponder...what if the US Military entered South Africa to protect it from a neighboring nation...what if Aparthied was still in place and the host nation requried that US African American military personnel be housed in separate barracks and were not allowed to eat in the same mess hall as whites. They cannot drive and can't be out in public with whites.

50 years ago, this would not sound so far-fetched, but, today, we will not put up with this sort of systematic discrimination.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[RMI]

Wow! comparing having to wear a head covering with apartheid......that's a HUGE stretch!!!!!

You might want to check your sense of proportion. Last I checked, no one was scarred for life (physically, emotionally, or economically) from having to wear a Hibiya. I can understand solidarity with another female, as it always helps to have someone around to understand your perspective, but don't let that blind you to what shes actually doing here. This is about personal publicity, pure and simple.

 

[ex nav]

"I also feel that she, as possibly the ranking female officer in the AOR, has the responsibility to right any policies that are detrimental to women serving in the AOR."

When the military becomes compartmentalized into "the highest ranking female, highest ranking Latino, highest ranking African American, highest ranking Arab, highest ranking WASP male" then it loses it's ability to fight (or in the AF case; fly, fight, and win). The military is not a place for "social experiments" despite what Pres. Clinton tried to do. The military exists to "kill people and break things" if our civilian leadership determines it is in this nation's national interest and/or for defensive purposes. That is it. No more and no less. Breaking the military into groups that where policies that said groups feel may be detrimental to it's own interests IS WRONG. you cannot have a cohesive fighting force if you have to "look over your shoulder" or "wonder who will sue if they do not like your orders" because they do not "advance the subgroup's agenda."

Don't get me wrong, the military can "lead social change" like it did when the US was still segregated and the military integrated. This is good and should continue.

What the military should not have do or not have to put up with, is someone who does not follow legal orders and cannot put "service before self" continuing to advance an agenda via the legal system (and have someone else who probably hates the military pay for it). I say again, suing the SecDef because you believe you are inconvenienced is absurd.

I guess that's my 6 cents worth.........


PS comparing Laura Bush's remarks about the Taliban and what they have done to women and clildren to the Saudi (and other Arab) culture and customs shows just how misinformed we can be. That is akin to calling all Muslims Arabs, etc, etc.

 

[JimNtexas]

Fire her a**!

This individual does not have the maturity to be an airmen, let alone an O-5.

It was fine for her to take her petty little complaint up the chain of command. But when she was told "no", her job was to salute smartly, shut up about it, and go fly her jet. Period.

How can she ever expect to give an unpopular order to anyone else and have it taken seriously? Would she have any right at all to complain if a subordinate questioned any or all orders she might issue?

The Air Force is full of rules that seem (and often are) silly and arbitrary. If she can't accept that, then she needs to find another line of work. Heck, as a navigator if I had sued everytime my feelings were hurt I'd have spent all my time in federal court.

By encouraging all the worthless barracks lawyers in the service she seriously damages good order and discipline. She should receive a referral OPR and be removed from flying status for her highly imature and unprofessional conduct.

Strong message follows.

Jim

 

[Draginass]

Our service people should wear conservative clothing in line with our own culture and if the Saudi's don't like it, we ought to tell them to pound sand. I've had about enough of cowtowing to the Saudi's for the priviledge of protecting their sorry, lazy, corrupt, hypocritical asses.

 

[T1bubba]

She's still making news...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134388267_flier08.html

T1bubba

 

[RueterF16]

Are you joking??

Makes her sound good??? Did you even read the article? Have you really been associated with the military? This isn't a case of shooting unarmed civilians, it's a case of not following orders. LEGAL Orders!! Women's rights advocates would love to win this one because then they could try and get even more from the military. The next thing will be a comprehensive change in the promotion system to ensure that women receive a proportionate amount of the promotions, regardless of capabilities. It's called quota filling and is never good for anyone.
Did you notice that the article was (of course) written by a woman, she only spoke at a school for (once again) women. and nothing was ever mentioned about whether she responded to questions such as," Don't you think that by taking an oath to follow orders, you're in violation of that oath by not following them? McSally does not have the right or the wherewithall to determine what is or isn't a lawful order. Her determination that it is unconstitutional is a moot point. She doesn't get that option. She needs to a) Shut up and color, or b) get the **&$ out of the military and move on to some other form of work. I know her personally and she is NOT worthy of all the praise she is recieving for putting this before a court....