This Roger Cohen makes me want to puke

[SLUF4]

The problem is nobody is willing to pay the appropriate amount to cover the expense of flying safely and still giving the airlines a profit-i've brought this up several times here and been blasted by others here saying nobody will fly-and I suppose they are right.

 

[WayBack]

Damn right.... mainline carriers should take back that flying and return those jobs where they initially started.

Yeah, but we know what happened there. They created their own worst enemy, the regionals. Now they're doing the most complaining about the demise of the industry, that they helped create.

 

[lookin4better]

Yeah, but we know what happened there. They created their own worst enemy, the regionals. Now they're doing the most complaining about the demise of the industry, that they helped create.

Agreed, it was created by mainline carriers and pilots allowing it, and in general the public does not care about anything but a cheap ticket.

It would be very nice to see most of that flying back at mainline carriers. A few pilots at some regionals would lose their jobs to furlough, but mainlines would hire more pilots. There are job applications available to those that would lose their jobs..... sounds harsh, but it would be for the best in the long term.

 

[IslandDriver]

3407 may have brought it to light but most of what they were talking about is industry wide.

The pay....well it is an atrosity...but this is a capatolistic society (at least right now) I know when I took a job at the regionals I knew the pay...I made myself ready for it prior to going there. It was not easy but I prepared for it and it made it easier. Don't blame Colgan for those pay rates their pay on the Q is not that far from even bigger jets. CJC $21.00/hr first year FO, Republic $23.00 on the 190. I do not like it...but it is there...and Republic is now considered a "Major".

Mx, Operating rules, etc, IE: "Moving the rig" Well it always meant to me move it in the confines of "The Book" in other words...know what is legal and move it if it can be moved. Know your MEL, FAR's, FOM, etc and what you can and can not do.

Remember who is the last line of defense in the safety chain...The Pilots... the FO and The Captain. If you do not like it stop the show. I have done it as an FO and as a Captain. And by the way...with no recourse. I learned a long time ago.."When you are right you are right...just make sure you are right"

I have never been a big ALPA guy but Prater being on there made me realize that the unions did not do a good service to the regionals. I know CJC just started with them but they were in place in the industry and "set the standard" on pay for the regionals. The major ALPA carriers wanted nothing to do with RJ's and Turbo-props so they let the regionals grow with little scope. They in effect made the payrates so the major carriers could afford the operation. The ALPA regionals do not have much better pay than CJC. I remember when I thought a union job meant good pay...not so in aviation.

I promised myself I would not let this show bother me..but it has. I have moved on from the regionals but have fond memories there. I learned a lot when I was an FO and when I was Captain I felt I ran a good show. Sure I would run it a little different now with my newer experience...but I survived 6 years in the arena and I would not exchange a minute of it.

The saddest part is the death of all the crew and passengers. I look at the faces and think that they are someones sister, mother, brother, etc. It is a reality...we have to do the job we agreed to do...every minute of every flight. Use automation as a tool not a crutch. I try to take it seriously..call me what ever you want...watch the people board your plane and remember we signed on to do a job...do it or get out. Since the pay is so "bad" we can make the same money at Wal-Mart right?

Flame away...but that is my comment.

 

[dcfu69]

Guys,

Nothing is going to change in this industry...period. The FAA and the airlines have been in bed with each other for a long time and they will continue to remain that way. The public does not give a crap anymore. They will go on orbitz and buy the cheapest ticket possible; most of them have no idea that they are on colgan, xjt, pinnacle, comair, whoever. All they care about is getting to there destination cheaply. Sad but mostly true. I'm sure there are some who pay attention when they book flights to see if it is Colgan or whatever regional there on but not most. I hope i am wrong and it does get better but I aint holdin my breath. I just hope the hiring and training department get it right this time with the upcoming interviews and training for the new Q400's were getting. God help us if we screw something else up.

 

[lookin4better]

I applaude them for speaking out... I guess they are resigned to other careers uh? Or are they still flying?

 

[lookin4better]

Guys,

Nothing is going to change in this industry...period. The FAA and the airlines have been in bed with each other for a long time and they will continue to remain that way. The public does not give a crap anymore. They will go on orbitz and buy the cheapest ticket possible; most of them have no idea that they are on colgan, xjt, pinnacle, comair, whoever. All they care about is getting to there destination cheaply. Sad but mostly true. I'm sure there are some who pay attention when they book flights to see if it is Colgan or whatever regional there on but not most. I hope i am wrong and it does get better but I aint holdin my breath. I just hope the hiring and training department get it right this time with the upcoming interviews and training for the new Q400's were getting. God help us if we screw something else up.

I hope you are wrong, but I think the Wal-Mart-ization of this industry is not even close to being finished.

 

[WayBack]

I hope you are wrong, but I think the Wal-Mart-ization of this industry is not even close to being finished.

It's not even close to being done. They're still finding new ways to do things the cheapest way possible. Like the FAA has done in the past, they will continue to do in the future...look the other direction.

Just wondering. I thought these new flight times were supposed to be in effect right now, in some form or another? Or have they been delayed?
Congress is running the show now and not even they can get things moving along.

 

[lookin4better]

Good documentary...

I was a little shocked when they showed the pilots name(on the complaint letter) who falsified that W&B form..... young guy too. Wonder if he is still at Colgan? Was suprised the company went ot bat for him, but then again, they were defending him because he forged that load form.

Just scanned the NTSB report for that Captain that lied about the load manifest..... emergency revoation was upheld initialy, not sure about presentlly. He should'nt have lied/falsified the document..... probably the actions of a spoiled little boy who thought he could get away with anything he wanted. Looking a little into his background it appears so! Google is amazing!

 

[kf4amu]

Good documentary...

I was a little shocked when they showed the pilots name(on the complaint letter) who falsified that W&B form..... young guy too. Wonder if he is still at Colgan? Was suprised the company went ot bat for him, but then again, they were defending him because he forged that load form.

Just scanned the NTSB report for that Captain that lied about the load manifest..... emergency revoation was upheld initialy, not sure about presentlly. He should'nt have lied/falsified the document..... probably the actions of a spoiled little boy who thought he could get away with anything he wanted. Looking a little into his background it appears so! Google is amazing!

Don't worry about him, he's a senior MD88 Captain at a Virtual Airline.

 

[pilotyip]

Turnover

............I have never been a big ALPA guy but Prater being on there made me realize that the unions did not do a good service to the regionals. I know CJC just started with them but they were in place in the industry and "set the standard" on pay for the regionals. The major ALPA carriers wanted nothing to do with RJ's and Turbo-props so they let the regionals grow with little scope. They in effect made the payrates so the major carriers could afford the operation. The ALPA regionals do not have much better pay than CJC. I remember when I thought a union job meant good pay...not so in aviation......but I survived 6 years in the arena and I would not exchange a minute of it. Flame away...but that is my comment.

No flame but I think you hit the nail on the head. You survived your six years; no one makes a career commitment to a regional life style. Serve your time and move on. That is why the union is basically ineffective when compared to the major carriers. A thought is that they pay check airman a $50,000 override. They hire older guys in their late 40’s early 50’s who will stay at the airline for 10-5 years. They would provide experience, continuity, and a stabilizing force in the airline operations. This would be attractive to many pilots like myself 15 years ago. I was almost in this scenario, less the 50K, at ACA 15 years ago, but the age 60 retirement rules made me turn them down.

 

[J.Otto]

I liked the crash pad looked very well kept. Much nicer than the JO bunk room on the boat

They're livin' it up in there, right Yip? :laugh:

 

[DC8Driver]

Makes me afraid to put my family on some of these regionals....sad....and scary.

Like Southwest has such a great record of keeping things on the runway....LOLOL

 

[DC8Driver]

Agreed, it was created by mainline carriers and pilots allowing it, and in general the public does not care about anything but a cheap ticket.

It would be very nice to see most of that flying back at mainline carriers. A few pilots at some regionals would lose their jobs to furlough, but mainlines would hire more pilots. There are job applications available to those that would lose their jobs..... sounds harsh, but it would be for the best in the long term.

Spoken like a man that has never been on a seniority list. Virtual unemployment insurance?

 

[Rerouted]

I'm still laughing after reading the post on the last page attempting to defend the regional industry. The regionals are driven by greed and prey on an empathetic work force. As long as this "norm" is accepted it will never change. I thought Frontline hit it out of the park. Unfortunately, knowing this industry..nobody will even go looking for the ball. Change won't come until they they can't staff the planes or people won't get on them as paying pax. What do you think the odds are of that happening?

 

[DC8Driver]

You're right. They are all furloughed, and if you weren't you would be making over $30,000 too, because we haven't hired anyone since 5/7/2008.

Why did you take the job? Didn't you know the pay? Why not call ALPA and ask why they always eat their young?

 

[Data]

Brian Wilson.....?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Classic!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm still laughing after reading the post on the last page attempting to defend the regional industry. The regionals are driven by greed and prey on an empathetic work force. As long as this "norm" is accepted it will never change. I thought Frontline hit it out of the park. Unfortunately, knowing this industry..nobody will even go looking for the ball. Change won't come until they they can't staff the planes or people won't get on them as paying pax. What do you think the odds are of that happening?

You don't spend your money in the US market place that uses outsourcing? Why should airline consumers be any different?

 

[WayBack]

What, exactly, did he say that made him a tool? If anything, he didn't defend our industry enough. There are no first officers at ASA earning under $35,000 per year or so. The average is probably closer to $40,000.00 - $45,000.00, since we haven't hired in so long.

Of course, ASA is a "major" airline by definition, and truly cannot be placed in the same bucket as other smaller regional airlines. That is a point that this show didn't make. Not all regionals are the same, and that is an important fact.

It also didn't make the point that regionals do more takeoffs and landings and more legs per day at 52% of the flights for the majors. It is pure mathematics that more accidents will be at the regional level. If most of the flights were the majors, but the accidents were at the regional level, THEN it might mean something.

Remember guys, this show has an axe to grind, and they edit and show what they want the public to see.

This right here is an example of someone trying to make themselves feel better about the company/industry they work for.

Also I'm glad you're very proud that you're considered major airline. Being a major airline, shouldn't you be paid major airline pilot wages? You are doing the majority of their domestic flying, aren't you?
I think we should all note here that ASA is a major airline, not to be confused with little regionals. There are only a few similarities between the ASA the major airline and the little regionals:
- They both fly the same airplane/seat number for the same pay.
- They both have the same hiring requirements.
- Their new hires are cut from the same mold, and the are the same age.
- They both have the same QOL.
But in the end, ASA is a major, and don't you forget it.

 

[LearLove]

Let this Cohen d-bag know how we really feel.

Tel: 202-367-1170, #01 will get you to his extension.

[email protected]

 

[lookin4better]

Spoken like a man that has never been on a seniority list. Virtual unemployment insurance?

Spoken like a man who does not see past next month..

I have been on a senority list, the temporary unemployment as a result of mainline taking back most flying at a regional would be worth it in the long run.

Of course the airlines would actually have to select and interview people to ensure they were getting the right people for the job and not people who think they are entitled to the job because their regional jet was painted in the colors. Its going to get very competitive!

 

[lookin4better]

Don't worry about him, he's a senior MD88 Captain at a Virtual Airline.

I saw that !!! ........absolutely hilarious! Wow are there some dorks out there!!!

 

[e=mc2]

Start simple to fix the airlines:

ATP required to be a Part 121 FO
-500 hours Multi

If you do not meet the above your company has 2 years to replace you.

Watch the wages and benefits improve when nobody shows for class at the current scale. Don't worry ALPA will find a way to lower the bar!

 

[Rerouted]

Make it cheaper...train the homeless to fly..ah..well...

You don't spend your money in the US market place that uses outsourcing? Why should airline consumers be any different?

No arguments here Rez - they do, they will continue to, and those doing the job will continued to receive marginal pay for their efforts. Unions will continue to feel like they are at war with management and the field will be one that will attract fewer and fewer talented people. Maybe one day the government can train the homeless to fly jets as part of a workfare program and the flying public can fly even cheaper. Hang on...I remember my old crash pad...that's already happened but I subsidized the training...hmmmm....

 

[DC8Driver]

Spoken like a man who does not see past next month..

I have been on a senority list, the temporary unemployment as a result of mainline taking back most flying at a regional would be worth it in the long run.

Of course the airlines would actually have to select and interview people to ensure they were getting the right people for the job and not people who think they are entitled to the job because their regional jet was painted in the colors. Its going to get very competitive!

What if your 15 years at a regional making $100,000? I think you don't look past today...............I highly doubt you were on a seniority list unless you didn't make it through training? Bingo!

Do you think "mainlines" are all of a sudden going to pay high wages? Hello! They are going broke now. Get a clue. Not all regionals are Colgan.

 

[skyking]

I missed last nights show about the regional airline industry. Anybody know if or when it might be repeated?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No arguments here Rez - they do, they will continue to, and those doing the job will continued to receive marginal pay for their efforts. Unions will continue to feel like they are at war with management and the field will be one that will attract fewer and fewer talented people. Maybe one day the government can train the homeless to fly jets as part of a workfare program and the flying public can fly even cheaper. Hang on...I remember my old crash pad...that's already happened but I subsidized the training...hmmmm....

Close.... instead of the homeless it will be foreigners on guest worker visa....

The only way to fix the problem is to legislate it.... of course the interest groups including consumers and airline will fight it (safety....)...

So who is going to win on CapHill... ALPA and its 53,000 member group, or the ATA and consumer groups with its 305 million member group (basically the population of the US). Oh don't forget the foreign influence on CapHill as well....

The problem is... globalisation has liberalized the world market all while regulatory law remains withing the state borders.

 

[SLUF4]

it's being repeated, but it's also on the pbs website
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...epage&utm_medium=bigimage&utm_source=bigimage

 

[Metro752]

"Hey Roger, this is Billy from New York. I wanna know something, is that spray on tan, or is it the real deal? You stupid piece of garbage, mmhahahahaha."

 

[lookin4better]

Well, tough break really. It is not the regionals "flying" in the first place. It belongs to someone else..... if it goes away, it goes away. It is simply contract work...It does not belong to "you" and is not "your" flying. I always laugh when pilots at regionals get all huffy that another regional is "taking" their flying..... but when asked if they know where it came from in the first place, they do not even bat an eye. An example is the whining from some pilots about Colgan "taking" flying from Express Jet.... they are doing nothing of the sort. #1 that flying never was theirs(XJT) in the first place, it belongs to Continental Airlines. #2, Continental can do with that flying as they see fit(see #1).

However, its highly unlikely the mainlines will ever get all that flying back, but it does belong to them and can do with it as they see fit for business purposes(i.e. change contracts as they see fit to the least expensive regional for cost reduction reasons.... its just business, nothing personal.) Now it is up to that regional to conduct a safe operation..... but those regionals should be much smaller then they are today and actually feed instead of supplement/ take mainline flying.