This Roger Cohen makes me want to puke

[ASA_Aviator]

ok true, if i was called back it would be 2nd year pay... but the next guy hired would be at less than 20K... then the next, then the next... and WE are a leader in pay in the industry. No one claims to believe they should be paid 100K as an FO... but, less than 20??? even if it is first year... I personally would rather make more money early in my career than more money later in my career... The whole Time Value of money concept thingy I learned in my fancy finance class.... yea, i know, good luck with that.

I'm all for paying the first year guys more. It is the senior guys who put the senior year pay high at the expense of the first year pay.

The first year pay at ASA is $23.00 per hour, which equates to roughly $22,000 a year, assuming training and reserve, etc. That is bad, but it isn't as bad as it was prior to contract 2007. It could be much better. I would be willing to make less as a senior captain in exchange for normalizing the pay for the new hires. For one thing, it makes more long term financial sense. If you make more money in the early years, then you will retire with more money than making small amounts until you are senior.

 

[Draginass]

Cohen is the perfect poster child for the pathetic depths that the US aviation system has sunk to as well as the venal slime that make up a sizeable proportion of company managements.

 

[Draginass]

The cure for this is to disallow these codeshare agreements and make the major carrier FULLY responsible for ALL its flying.

The FAA and gubment also need a complete overhaul of their own professional cultures.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What, exactly, did he say that made him a tool? If anything, he didn't defend our industry enough. There are no first officers at ASA earning under $35,000 per year or so. The average is probably closer to $40,000.00 - $45,000.00, since we haven't hired in so long.

Of course, ASA is a "major" airline by definition, and truly cannot be placed in the same bucket as other smaller regional airlines. That is a point that this show didn't make. Not all regionals are the same, and that is an important fact.

It also didn't make the point that regionals do more takeoffs and landings and more legs per day at 52% of the flights for the majors. It is pure mathematics that more accidents will be at the regional level. If most of the flights were the majors, but the accidents were at the regional level, THEN it might mean something.

Remember guys, this show has an axe to grind, and they edit and show what they want the public to see.

Brian Wilson.....?

 

[SLUF4]

That guy is such a sleazeball looking jerk. And I'm glad that show came out-those two Colgan pilots had some stones to say what they said and I applaud them for it. Why would you want to sweep these problems under the rug? Let's fix this crappy industry.

 

[Snaab]

Thoughts on "Flying Cheap" (Frontline)

My two cents in two words: SPOT-ON! FAA and the major carriers need to have a real stake in the regionals/codeshares. Roger Cohen is a complete scumbag.

 

[lookin4better]

Damn right.... mainline carriers should take back that flying and return those jobs where they initially started.

 

[pilotyip]

I liked the crash pad looked very well kept. Much nicer than the JO bunk room on the boat

 

[Snaab]

Yes we do look bad.. Thank you, Colgan.

Judging by your profile, you're not raising the bar either in your CL65!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The cure for this is to disallow these codeshare agreements and make the major carrier FULLY responsible for ALL its flying.

The FAA and gubment also need a complete overhaul of their own professional cultures.

Who is going to pay for it?

Outsourcing the outsourced is the American Way.

Making the major carrier fully responsible will raise ticket prices. That might mean less flying, less pilot jobs..... That is what regionals are all about right... Colgan outsrouced XJT who outcourced CAL.....

When price, not safety is the main motivator of consumers, who pay for everything, the ability to suddenly change direction is extreme difficult.


On a seprate note Phil Trenary, CEO of Pinnacle, owner of Colgan, is the total tool.

 

[SLUF4]

The problem is nobody is willing to pay the appropriate amount to cover the expense of flying safely and still giving the airlines a profit-i've brought this up several times here and been blasted by others here saying nobody will fly-and I suppose they are right.

 

[WayBack]

Damn right.... mainline carriers should take back that flying and return those jobs where they initially started.

Yeah, but we know what happened there. They created their own worst enemy, the regionals. Now they're doing the most complaining about the demise of the industry, that they helped create.

 

[lookin4better]

Yeah, but we know what happened there. They created their own worst enemy, the regionals. Now they're doing the most complaining about the demise of the industry, that they helped create.

Agreed, it was created by mainline carriers and pilots allowing it, and in general the public does not care about anything but a cheap ticket.

It would be very nice to see most of that flying back at mainline carriers. A few pilots at some regionals would lose their jobs to furlough, but mainlines would hire more pilots. There are job applications available to those that would lose their jobs..... sounds harsh, but it would be for the best in the long term.

 

[IslandDriver]

3407 may have brought it to light but most of what they were talking about is industry wide.

The pay....well it is an atrosity...but this is a capatolistic society (at least right now) I know when I took a job at the regionals I knew the pay...I made myself ready for it prior to going there. It was not easy but I prepared for it and it made it easier. Don't blame Colgan for those pay rates their pay on the Q is not that far from even bigger jets. CJC $21.00/hr first year FO, Republic $23.00 on the 190. I do not like it...but it is there...and Republic is now considered a "Major".

Mx, Operating rules, etc, IE: "Moving the rig" Well it always meant to me move it in the confines of "The Book" in other words...know what is legal and move it if it can be moved. Know your MEL, FAR's, FOM, etc and what you can and can not do.

Remember who is the last line of defense in the safety chain...The Pilots... the FO and The Captain. If you do not like it stop the show. I have done it as an FO and as a Captain. And by the way...with no recourse. I learned a long time ago.."When you are right you are right...just make sure you are right"

I have never been a big ALPA guy but Prater being on there made me realize that the unions did not do a good service to the regionals. I know CJC just started with them but they were in place in the industry and "set the standard" on pay for the regionals. The major ALPA carriers wanted nothing to do with RJ's and Turbo-props so they let the regionals grow with little scope. They in effect made the payrates so the major carriers could afford the operation. The ALPA regionals do not have much better pay than CJC. I remember when I thought a union job meant good pay...not so in aviation.

I promised myself I would not let this show bother me..but it has. I have moved on from the regionals but have fond memories there. I learned a lot when I was an FO and when I was Captain I felt I ran a good show. Sure I would run it a little different now with my newer experience...but I survived 6 years in the arena and I would not exchange a minute of it.

The saddest part is the death of all the crew and passengers. I look at the faces and think that they are someones sister, mother, brother, etc. It is a reality...we have to do the job we agreed to do...every minute of every flight. Use automation as a tool not a crutch. I try to take it seriously..call me what ever you want...watch the people board your plane and remember we signed on to do a job...do it or get out. Since the pay is so "bad" we can make the same money at Wal-Mart right?

Flame away...but that is my comment.

 

[dcfu69]

Guys,

Nothing is going to change in this industry...period. The FAA and the airlines have been in bed with each other for a long time and they will continue to remain that way. The public does not give a crap anymore. They will go on orbitz and buy the cheapest ticket possible; most of them have no idea that they are on colgan, xjt, pinnacle, comair, whoever. All they care about is getting to there destination cheaply. Sad but mostly true. I'm sure there are some who pay attention when they book flights to see if it is Colgan or whatever regional there on but not most. I hope i am wrong and it does get better but I aint holdin my breath. I just hope the hiring and training department get it right this time with the upcoming interviews and training for the new Q400's were getting. God help us if we screw something else up.

 

[lookin4better]

I applaude them for speaking out... I guess they are resigned to other careers uh? Or are they still flying?

 

[lookin4better]

Guys,

Nothing is going to change in this industry...period. The FAA and the airlines have been in bed with each other for a long time and they will continue to remain that way. The public does not give a crap anymore. They will go on orbitz and buy the cheapest ticket possible; most of them have no idea that they are on colgan, xjt, pinnacle, comair, whoever. All they care about is getting to there destination cheaply. Sad but mostly true. I'm sure there are some who pay attention when they book flights to see if it is Colgan or whatever regional there on but not most. I hope i am wrong and it does get better but I aint holdin my breath. I just hope the hiring and training department get it right this time with the upcoming interviews and training for the new Q400's were getting. God help us if we screw something else up.

I hope you are wrong, but I think the Wal-Mart-ization of this industry is not even close to being finished.

 

[WayBack]

I hope you are wrong, but I think the Wal-Mart-ization of this industry is not even close to being finished.

It's not even close to being done. They're still finding new ways to do things the cheapest way possible. Like the FAA has done in the past, they will continue to do in the future...look the other direction.

Just wondering. I thought these new flight times were supposed to be in effect right now, in some form or another? Or have they been delayed?
Congress is running the show now and not even they can get things moving along.

 

[lookin4better]

Good documentary...

I was a little shocked when they showed the pilots name(on the complaint letter) who falsified that W&B form..... young guy too. Wonder if he is still at Colgan? Was suprised the company went ot bat for him, but then again, they were defending him because he forged that load form.

Just scanned the NTSB report for that Captain that lied about the load manifest..... emergency revoation was upheld initialy, not sure about presentlly. He should'nt have lied/falsified the document..... probably the actions of a spoiled little boy who thought he could get away with anything he wanted. Looking a little into his background it appears so! Google is amazing!

 

[kf4amu]

Good documentary...

I was a little shocked when they showed the pilots name(on the complaint letter) who falsified that W&B form..... young guy too. Wonder if he is still at Colgan? Was suprised the company went ot bat for him, but then again, they were defending him because he forged that load form.

Just scanned the NTSB report for that Captain that lied about the load manifest..... emergency revoation was upheld initialy, not sure about presentlly. He should'nt have lied/falsified the document..... probably the actions of a spoiled little boy who thought he could get away with anything he wanted. Looking a little into his background it appears so! Google is amazing!

Don't worry about him, he's a senior MD88 Captain at a Virtual Airline.