This may sound like a stupid

[TDTURBO]

question to some of you but here goes, I flew into AnnArbor, Mi and when I was leaving, the tower gave me a DP. I told them I wasn't ready for "all that" and split VFR and picked up my clearence a few miles out. When I got home I looked in my Jepp charts for any DP's next to ARB and couldn't find any. My question is, how the hell am I expected to fly a DP when it's not even near the page of the departing airports approach plate? I know I am missing something here, what is it? I realize Detroit has a few DP's but they are only good for that airport, I can't see how a DP for one airport will work for another. What's the deal?

 

[A Squared]

There're the Willow run 3 departure for Ann Arbor.

I dunno why you can't find it in your jepps.

 

[avbug]

TD,

I tried to look up Ann Arbor in my jepps, but it's not included; the runway is too short for my subscription. However, A Squared is correct; the Willow Run 3 is the departure proceedure for Ann Arbor.

You needn't have departed VFR; you could simply state that you didn't have the departure proceedure. ATC would then give you alternate instructions, or provide you with the text description.

If given the Willow Run 3, knowing you're only 26 miles from Willow Run, you could also look under Willow Run, and you'd find the same departure, with the note that it also serves Ann Arbor.

In any case, whenever in doubt, let ATC in on what you're thinking. Rather than simply cancel because it sounds complicated, tell them you don't have the proceedure.

This year I went into PHX. I was given a departure that wasn't in my book. I was sure it should be there; I'd used it many times before. After a second or two of frantic scanning, I notified Clearance that it wasn't in my book. I heard a chuckle from the other end, and the Clearance Delivery controller said, "You did your Jepps a day early, didn't you?"

I had to admit that I did...they weren't due until the following morning. Most of the arrivals and departures had been either changed or revised, and that included the one I wanted. In this case, I was simply provided with the text description in the form of a clearance. I referenced another departure chart to get oriented, then referenced it on the enroute chart. Alternately, though less convenient for the controllers, I could have just departed under vectors.

In any event, let ATC know, and include them in your thinking process. That way everybody is on the same page.

 

[TDTURBO]

Thanks avbug and A squared,

After scouring my Michigan plates, I found the microscopic notation under the obscure Detroit title indicating that the DP can also be used for ARB, which btw was conveniently located some 30 pages from the ARB approach plate.


I was leaving at night and didn't want to be bothered with fumbling around for 10 minutes looking for a DP in perfect VFR conditions.

I guess allot of people wait until they are west a few miles to pickup their clearance when returning to Chicago hence avoiding unnecessary route deviations.

What irritates me is the layout in Jepp charts of the applicable DP's for reliever airports, they killed a million trees anyway, why not put the DP next to the airport it applies to?

How am I supposed to know that it's buried in the last bunch of out of order DP's in the Detroit section? I do realize all I had to do was say I couldn't find the DP, and I would have if the field was below VFR, but who wants to copy a novel at night with an auctioneer ATC guy on a caffeine buzz from hell?

BTW A Squared, I went to U of M and from your name it's clear you're from the area; did you go to Pioneer or Huron HS? I love that town and return all the time to hang with the old college crowd. Last week was the first time I did it IFR .......as you can tell.

Avbug, 4 A.M.? Don't you ever sleep?

 

[A Squared]

TD,

I went to the U of M but a different U of M.
Never been to Ann Arbor, The screen name is based on something else.


regards

 

[dogg]

tdturbo, I would think with your relative inexperience that you would be taking this kind of stuff a little more seriously. You can always tell cl. del. that you will get back to them and find the dp and then accept the clearance. Or you can tell them that you are un able and they will provide you with alternate routing. Saying that "I didn't want to be bothered " is the sort of tone expectged out of a burned out high timer not a beginner.

 

[TDTURBO]

dogg,

I do take flying very seriously; I eventually want to earn my ATP, even though all I ever needed was an instrument. I have been flying for 20 years but like many non-career pilots, I don't have a million hours.

I do however have little patience for superfluous delays that are avoidable with a little creativity and experience. It would be unnecessary for me to fly the DP on a clear VFR night, hence the, cavalier attitude. There were many other things to worry about, becoming a drop of water in the fast moving and many times torturous waterway of ATC isn't something I relish but avoid if it is safe and expeditious.

That's the beauty of VFR and IFR; they both have a time and a place, its just experience that tells you when that is. I also am aware that picking up your IFR clearance 5 miles west is much faster and efficient than picking it up on the ground, a common practice out of this particular airport.

Regards.

 

[iaflyer]

Ann Arbor DPs with Jepps

It happens to say on Ann Arbor's 10-9 page (the airport diagram):

For STARs/DP see Detroit, Mich (Willow Run)

It's at the top of the diagram, just below the area that lists the various frequencies (ATIS, Clearance delivery, etc).

The Willow Run 3 departure is just what they used to called Vector SID. It just lists the various departure fixes that are used in the Detroit area. There isn't any obstacle information on that DP.

However, on the Ann Arbor 10-9 page, Ann Arbor's obstacle DP IS listed (you read that right? ;-) It's not much, but it's still important: "Rwys 6,12, and 24 climb runway heading to 1300' before turning northwest."

Ignoring stuff like DPs can get you in trouble. Many of us have made it this far because we pay attention to the details.

iaflyer

 

[Checks]

TD,

Considering the weather was CAVU, I dont think it was such a big deal that you departed VFR.

Thanks for posting the question and keep up the flying.

 

[TDTURBO]

Thanks Checks,

I'm glad to see someone can comprehend the English language.

iaflyer,

I never said I was, "ignoring", DP's, reread the posts.

 

[ifly4food]

dogg,

I do take flying very seriously; I eventually want to earn my ATP, even though all I ever needed was an instrument. I have been flying for 20 years but like many non-career pilots, I don't have a million hours.

I do however have little patience for superfluous delays that are avoidable with a little creativity and experience. It would be unnecessary for me to fly the DP on a clear VFR night, hence the, cavalier attitude. There were many other things to worry about, becoming a drop of water in the fast moving and many times torturous waterway of ATC isn't something I relish but avoid if it is safe and expeditious.

That's the beauty of VFR and IFR; they both have a time and a place, its just experience that tells you when that is. I also am aware that picking up your IFR clearance 5 miles west is much faster and efficient than picking it up on the ground, a common practice out of this particular airport.

Regards.

TD, you kind of contradict yourself here. First you say you take flying seriously, then you say you have little patience for "superfluous delays". I've got some news for you... if you want to go go far in aviation you had better get used to delays. You had also better get used to flying DPs properly and complying with ATC instructions.
Going cowboy VFR because you didn't want to bother with doing things right is no path to becomming a commercial pilot nor an ATP. Some could make a 91.13 case against you had you encountered problems. You never know when that engine may quit.

When I was a CFI, I often ended up with students like you. You're the one instructors dread. You're a successsful businessman. You're an important person. You don't have time for all this petty rules and procedures. I can drive a boat; just teach me how to fly this thing. I seriously advise you to rethink this attitude you have if you plan to go beyond the private pilot stage.
Flying hours aren't everything. The mark of a professional is that the pilot takes pride in doing things properly and thus safely. There is no place for cowboys in the professional world.

I also find it hard to believe you when you say you're serious about aviation after that Mancow stunt you pulled. Sorry, but you lost any credibility you may have had with that juvenile stunt.

Good day.

 

[Timebuilder]

I used to avoid the stars and sids when I was a newly minted instrument pilot. While I could indeed figure out how to fly them, they looked somewhat complicated and time consuming. As a busy professional from other fields, I looked to "cut to the chase" and minimize my required effort. That was the appraoch that seemed to make the most sense at the time, but my opinion slowly changed.

As I became more proficient in busy airspace (about the time my Navajo work started) I found that these things were just another part of doing business in aviation, and I applied the effort to make myself fit seamlessly into the ATC picture. This was going to be my next "professional" field, and I was going to do things in the safe, expected, and professional manner.

Now, it is routine for me to deal with these procedures. While the captain waits for the pax, I'm in the airplane getting things ready. Very often, I don't know what has been filed, which makes it even more interesting. I start with the charts for where I am located, and if I have no DP's, I go looking for them. For instance, there are a lot of busy airports around Cleveland, and not all of them have their own DP at the head of the chart section. I find, and scan the names and fixes of the procedures for the airport, and then get ready to copy the clearance. This way, my mind is prepared to hear the new names and fixes, which makes copying the clearance much less of a chore. When the clearance is coming at me at forty with peak gusts to sixty, it sounds almost as familiar as "Cleared to the Palm Beach airport via the TEB 5 departure, radar vactors WHITE, then as filed".


Happy departing!

 

[TDTURBO]

TD, you kind of contradict yourself here. First you say you take flying seriously, then you say you have little patience for "superfluous delays". I've got some news for you... if you want to go go far in aviation you had better get used to delays. You had also better get used to flying DPs properly and complying with ATC instructions.
Going cowboy VFR because you didn't want to bother with doing things right is no path to becomming a commercial pilot nor an ATP. Some could make a 91.13 case against you had you encountered problems. You never know when that engine may quit.

When I was a CFI, I often ended up with students like you. You're the one instructors dread. You're a successsful businessman. You're an important person. You don't have time for all this petty rules and procedures. I can drive a boat; just teach me how to fly this thing. I seriously advise you to rethink this attitude you have if you plan to go beyond the private pilot stage.
Flying hours aren't everything. The mark of a professional is that the pilot takes pride in doing things properly and thus safely. There is no place for cowboys in the professional world.

I also find it hard to believe you when you say you're serious about aviation after that Mancow stunt you pulled. Sorry, but you lost any credibility you may have had with that juvenile stunt.

Good day.

I'm not sure what your problem is but it starts with your knowledge of me and the situation described above.

First off, departing VFR on a VFR night instead of departing IFR and flying a DP is not only legal, it's perfectly safe. You may want to re-read my posts, it's apparent your conception of the facts are distorted.
This may stem from being quick to judge, I don't know. Your obvious underlying hostility may stem from the Israel thread perhaps, never the less, lets bury the hatchet.

The Mancow show was carefully considered and discussed with the local FSDO, they didn't have a problem with it once I told them how we were doing it, neither should you.

Having a sense of humor doesn't negate professionalism nor does it give you the right to lump me into your group of bonehead students. I have been flying for 20 years, albeit sporadically at first, but I do strive to be inquisitive and professional in every facet of my life. I am not perfect; I have done things in cars, on motorcycles, ski slopes and just about every other place you can think of recklessly. This occurred 20 years ago, before I started flying. I guess I'm lucky to be alive like most people but there is one area I respect and never tempt fate; and that’s aviation.

I am the most careful and over educated fly-for-pleasure pilot, you'll ever meet. I hold a commercial and am getting my ATP because I want to, not because I HAVE TOO. If I were a careless "cowboy", why would I bother obtaining a terminal rating when I don't need it? Why do you think I ask questions and frequent this board and many others? It's because I want to learn more. I try to be understanding with other personality types, I may not agree with everyone on this forum but I respect their views and opinions, you should give it a try.


Good Day

 

[Checks]

Turbo,

You didnt do anything wrong. As you said, it was VFR and you departed VFR. On a nightly basis Freight dogs say screw the IFR clearance and go VFR to speed things up. Looking at your profile it doesnt look like you are flying Part121.

I guess your only crime is asking a simple question in an effort to learn something and then having some anal rententive types try to rip into you. I bet they made great flight instructors in their day. Question? NO QUESTIONS!!

 

[100LL... Again!]

TD Turbo-

Drat! I was all set to come down all over you like a ton of bricks.

You see, I am very impressed with my skills, and I`m simply CRAVING an opportunity to beat people up over minor issues.

Perhaps you could post some of your other `creative maneuvers`.

Then I could pick them apart, and justify myself as a pilot.


Your cooperation is greatly appreciated, you airborne cowboy, you!

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

I guess I am a cowboy every time I depart VFR when the tower says, "approach advises a 5 min delay due to traffic". Holding a flight on the ground so a 172 can do practice approaches at an airport 5 miles away is the definition of "superfluous delay" that TDTurbo was talking about. Maybe some just attack those with enough SA to make those decisions because they really just need the extra few minutes a delay provides to catch up to the airplane even though it's on the ground.

 

[prodigal]

ifly4food

Hey lookiehere partner,
Cowboys are just okiedokie in my book, bein' somewhat of one myself, fer real. So's lets just call 'em 'ar other varmints somethin' else and not slander the good name of cowboys everywhere.
Yippiecayyae, m.f. (name that movie)




(Disclaimer: The above is only somewhat tongue in cheek)

 

[100LL... Again!]

I hope you got the joke on that one.

 

[Singlecoil]

Turbo,

You didnt do anything wrong. As you said, it was VFR and you departed VFR. On a nightly basis Freight dogs say screw the IFR clearance and go VFR to speed things up. Looking at your profile it doesnt look like you are flying Part121.

Even 121 drivers say screw the delay, depart VFR and pick up the clearance enroute. Perfectly legal and perfectly safe. If somebody is ten miles out on the approach and won't cancel on a VFR day, then that is what you do.

 

[ifly4food]

I am the most careful and over educated fly-for-pleasure pilot, you'll ever meet. I hold a commercial and am getting my ATP because I want to, not because I HAVE TOO. If I were a careless "cowboy", why would I bother obtaining a terminal rating when I don't need it? Why do you think I ask questions and frequent this board and many others? It's because I want to learn more. I try to be understanding with other personality types, I may not agree with everyone on this forum but I respect their views and opinions, you should give it a try.

Ok. Sorry for being hard on you. You're part 91. Do whatever you want. Just don't hit me or my house and we'll be fine.

Hey lookiehere partner,
Cowboys are just okiedokie in my book, bein' somewhat of one myself, fer real. So's lets just call 'em 'ar other varmints somethin' else and not slander the good name of cowboys everywhere.
Yippiecayyae, m.f. (name that movie)

Die Hard.
I was a bit of a cowboy in my part 91 days too. It doesn't mean I didn't learn from the experience. Frankly, I'm lucky to be alive after some of the stuff I did. Sorry I tried to pass that wisdom along. Like me, some people need to learn the hard way.

Even 121 drivers say screw the delay, depart VFR and pick up the clearance enroute. Perfectly legal and perfectly safe. If somebody is ten miles out on the approach and won't cancel on a VFR day, then that is what you do.

And what airline do you work for?
We used to be able to depart VFR pre 9/11/01 but not since.
It was barely legal and definitely not that safe.