This may sound like a stupid

[Rush Limbaugh]

I guess I am a cowboy every time I depart VFR when the tower says, "approach advises a 5 min delay due to traffic". Holding a flight on the ground so a 172 can do practice approaches at an airport 5 miles away is the definition of "superfluous delay" that TDTurbo was talking about. Maybe some just attack those with enough SA to make those decisions because they really just need the extra few minutes a delay provides to catch up to the airplane even though it's on the ground.

 

[prodigal]

ifly4food

Hey lookiehere partner,
Cowboys are just okiedokie in my book, bein' somewhat of one myself, fer real. So's lets just call 'em 'ar other varmints somethin' else and not slander the good name of cowboys everywhere.
Yippiecayyae, m.f. (name that movie)




(Disclaimer: The above is only somewhat tongue in cheek)

 

[100LL... Again!]

I hope you got the joke on that one.

 

[Singlecoil]

Turbo,

You didnt do anything wrong. As you said, it was VFR and you departed VFR. On a nightly basis Freight dogs say screw the IFR clearance and go VFR to speed things up. Looking at your profile it doesnt look like you are flying Part121.

Even 121 drivers say screw the delay, depart VFR and pick up the clearance enroute. Perfectly legal and perfectly safe. If somebody is ten miles out on the approach and won't cancel on a VFR day, then that is what you do.

 

[ifly4food]

I am the most careful and over educated fly-for-pleasure pilot, you'll ever meet. I hold a commercial and am getting my ATP because I want to, not because I HAVE TOO. If I were a careless "cowboy", why would I bother obtaining a terminal rating when I don't need it? Why do you think I ask questions and frequent this board and many others? It's because I want to learn more. I try to be understanding with other personality types, I may not agree with everyone on this forum but I respect their views and opinions, you should give it a try.

Ok. Sorry for being hard on you. You're part 91. Do whatever you want. Just don't hit me or my house and we'll be fine.

Hey lookiehere partner,
Cowboys are just okiedokie in my book, bein' somewhat of one myself, fer real. So's lets just call 'em 'ar other varmints somethin' else and not slander the good name of cowboys everywhere.
Yippiecayyae, m.f. (name that movie)

Die Hard.
I was a bit of a cowboy in my part 91 days too. It doesn't mean I didn't learn from the experience. Frankly, I'm lucky to be alive after some of the stuff I did. Sorry I tried to pass that wisdom along. Like me, some people need to learn the hard way.

Even 121 drivers say screw the delay, depart VFR and pick up the clearance enroute. Perfectly legal and perfectly safe. If somebody is ten miles out on the approach and won't cancel on a VFR day, then that is what you do.

And what airline do you work for?
We used to be able to depart VFR pre 9/11/01 but not since.
It was barely legal and definitely not that safe.

 

[flywithastick]

Even 121 drivers say screw the delay, depart VFR and pick up the clearance enroute.

guess I lernt somthin today... I thought all 121 ops had to be under IFR . Not so?

 

[Singlecoil]

And what airline do you work for?
We used to be able to depart VFR pre 9/11/01 but not since.
It was barely legal and definitely not that safe.

That was the case for a few months after 9/11/01, but its back to the old way now. You can depart VFR as long as you pick up your clearance within 50 miles, and can cancel on the way in as long as have communications with an air/ground facility and either you have the airport in sight, or are within ten miles of the landing airport and it is VFR.

...and to answer flywithastick's question, there is a provision for enroute VFR as well, but I don't think anyone uses it. You do it mainly to get in an out of airports with lousy radar coverage when there is traffic that will cause an undue delay.
Some people will prefer to take an IFR clearance with a VFR climb, but I ask you, in terms of "safety" or "cowboy tactics" what is the difference? In both cases you are maintaining your own traffic and terrain clearance. You can do VFR-on-top, except that some controllers have different definitions for what that is. I'm used to it meaning that I'm heading for an airport where another aircraft has the airspace, I can request VFR-on-top, say goodday to Center, switch to CTAF and go on in. Salt Lake Center won't let you do that, where Seattle center will. CAVU day, the other guy ahead of you is on a visual and for whatever reason you don't want to cancel. Salt Lake will not let you go in under VFR-on-top. To their credit, the clearance isn't defined anywhere as to what it actually is. Some will say it means the requester (pilot) assumes all responsibility for terrain and traffic, as in treat him like he's VFR. Others will say that since it is still an IFR clearance, separation must be provided to other IFR traffic.

Maybe I should change my name to D.B. Cooper, I think that was a thread hijacking...

 

[Timebuilder]

Others will say that since it is still an IFR clearance, separation must be provided to other IFR traffic.

Even if you are not on an IFR flight plan or clearance, all of the traffic that is IFR still get their IFR separation from you.

VFR on top, granted at the request of the pilot, makes you responsible for BOTH the VFR and IFR requirements. A VFR depature is also a great tool to be used when apropriate, such as avoiding an IFR routing that is far from desirable, or departing an uncontrolled field where the airspace may be dedicated to an incoming aircraft.

Personally, I prefer to be a part of "the system" as much as possible. I think that my safety is enhanced when we are all on the same page.

 

[Singlecoil]

Even if you are not on an IFR flight plan or clearance, all of the traffic that is IFR still get their IFR separation from you.

Nope. Huhh-uhh. IFR traffic is only given separation from VFR traffic in Class B anc C airspace. In D, E, and G, it is not. Ever have your TCAS go off because of that VFR guy 500 feet below you? ATC will give you traffic advisories on him workload permitting, but they are not required to provide separation unless you are in B airspace.

 

[prodigal]

ifly4food

Well pard, I don't think you got my drift. It's not "cowboy" piloting I'm talking about, i.e., some disregard for regs or safe operating practices, it's REAL cowboys I'm talking about. You know, horses, cattle, ropes, spurs and such, and not sullying the good name of real cowboys.
And while I'm not an exalted 121 pilot, I do fly 135 in additon to 91 and I do DPs, STARS, whatever. It ain't always the easy way, but it is the COWBOY WAY.

 

[Timebuilder]

...but they are not required to provide separation unless you are in B airspace.

While you may be technically correct, in practice I think you will get separation from every target on the ATC screen. While I acknowledge that you are splitting a hair here, all of the IFR traffic is going to receive the due dilligence of any good controller.

I'll have to check in the regs when I get a chance, but I am told that ALL IFR targets under radar coverage receive separation from the other targets on a routine basis. To say that it is only when it is "workload permitting" is to point out that the feds have left themselves an "out", when in truth they want very much to keep your green dot away from all of the others.