There is no pilot shortage! Sorry. By the way Santa Claus isn't real either.

[livin'thesim]

It is clear that a lot of people are trying to rationalize their decision to go deeply into debt for college. Lots of debt is fine for a degree that will deliver the big bucks after graduation, but high debt for a worthless degree in some "soft" subject is just a waste of time.

However, a lot of people who spent all this money need to justify it to themselves, so they try to play the "elite, college educated" card. But the evidence of this supposed quality education is often completely lacking. I read plenty of writing by college grads that is middle school level.

I have a college degree, however I paid it off as I went, and was very careful not to overspend. College now is too expensive to pay as you go, you need parent's money or loans/grants. There is almost no other way.

Colleges are basically just financially raping the kids and giving them a diploma that often gives them no demonstrable return on investment.

 

[pilotyip]

It is clear that a lot of people are trying to rationalize their decision to go deeply into debt for college. Lots of debt is fine for a degree that will deliver the big bucks after graduation, but high debt for a worthless degree in some "soft" subject is just a waste of time.

However, a lot of people who spent all this money need to justify it to themselves, so they try to play the "elite, college educated" card. But the evidence of this supposed quality education is often completely lacking. I read plenty of writing by college grads that is middle school level.

I have a college degree, however I paid it off as I went, and was very careful not to overspend. College now is too expensive to pay as you go, you need parent's money or loans/grants. There is almost no other way.

Colleges are basically just financially raping the kids and giving them a diploma that often gives them no demonstrable return on investment.

This guy gets it! Good for you. Investment is post-secondary education must yield a good middle income job. In post-secondary we are not talking strictly college, skilled trades like fixing cars, running Nuclear Power Plants and flying airplanes can lead to a good life.

Repeat, but it fits here. In high schools, the vocational arts have all but vanished. We've elevated the importance of "higher education" to such a lofty perch that all other forms of knowledge are now labeled "alternative." Millions of parents and kids see apprenticeships and on-the-job-training opportunities as "vocational consolation prizes," best suited for those not cut out for a four-year degree. And still, we talk about millions of "shovel ready" jobs for a society that doesn't encourage people to pick up a shovel. In a hundred different ways, we have slowly marginalized an entire category of critical professions, reshaping our expectations of a "good job" into something that no longer looks like work. A few years from now, an hour with a good plumber if you can find one is going to cost more than an hour with a good psychiatrist. At which point we'll all be in need of both. I came here today because guys like my grandfather are no less important to civilized life than they were 50 years ago. Maybe they're in short supply because we don't acknowledge them they way we used to. We leave our check on the kitchen counter, and hope the work gets done. That needs to change.

 

[xjhawk]

There are two problems I will address, even though there are way more we could go on about. First is the inability to default on your student loan debt and the second is the availability of student loans. This caused all the traditional Universities and colleges to steadily increase their tuition and the creation of for profit colleges. IMHO this cheapened the statement " I have a college degree." Having a degree was now as easy as logging onto your computer, cutting and pasting all your assignments and taking your tests next to your second computer with all the answers. The five years after I graduated from a good university the tuition doubled but the pay those degrees produced did not. I was a commercial rated pilot coming out of the Army and could have gotten a regional job in the mid 90's, but I decided to get a four year degree from a good school because I saw that was one of the requirements for a job at many of the majors (or be more competitive). I have since been stuck at a regional airline for 11 years but feel lucky to had only $14k of student debt from my BA. Most of that debt was at 3% and paid for my study abroad experience. Well spent. Flying with pilots making $35k who have $100k in loans makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it. Industry pay cannot support the payments (remember they cannot be defaulted on by law) so therefore new students are not to be found as they know its better to take their talents elsewhere. Bringing validity to the the pilot shortage and the "pay is too low" argument.

 

[waveflyer]

Well one thing we are not doing as a society is keeping education inexpensive.
And that pisses me off-
We don't need granite countertops in apartment style dorms- we need books, teachers and classrooms-
And we don't need public education costs every bit as high as private. As a taxpayer that really makes me angry

 

[Nevets]

Well one thing we are not doing as a society is keeping education inexpensive.
And that pisses me off-
We don't need granite countertops in apartment style dorms- we need books, teachers and classrooms-
And we don't need public education costs every bit as high as private. As a taxpayer that really makes me angry

As a taxpayer, if we keep subsidizing education, the institutions of higher learning will keep increasing the "costs" of an education to meet the ever increasing supply of taxpayer subsidized money.

Anyway, there is no pilot shortage. There is only a shortage of pilots willing to fly for regional compensation. That's the point ALPA has been trying to make.

 

[pilotyip]

As a taxpayer, if we keep subsidizing education, the institutions of higher learning will keep increasing the "costs" of an education to meet the ever increasing supply of taxpayer subsidized money.

Anyway, there is no pilot shortage. There is only a shortage of pilots willing to fly for regional compensation. That's the point ALPA has been trying to make.

Not to mention spending all that money and graduating with no skills that have any value to any employers. Reminds me of an article in the WSJ a while back were a Stanford graduate with a 4.0 in Art could not find a job except at Starbucks, and she was complaining it was just not fair becuase she had worked so hard. But a welder graduating from a trade school can start in $50K range with virutally no debt.

 

[DCAA320]

Reminds me of an article in the WSJ a while back were a Stanford graduate with a 4.0 in Art could not find a job except at Starbucks, and she was complaining it was just not fair becuase she had worked so hard. But a welder graduating from a trade school can start in $50K range with virutally no debt.

The fact she was complaining and not understanding explains why she went into art

Seriously, what do you do with an art degree, work at a museum? Sounds more like a hobby to me.

 

[MAJICJOHNSON]

It is clear that a lot of people are trying to rationalize their decision to go deeply into debt for college. Lots of debt is fine for a degree that will deliver the big bucks after graduation, but high debt for a worthless degree in some "soft" subject is just a waste of time.

However, a lot of people who spent all this money need to justify it to themselves, so they try to play the "elite, college educated" card. But the evidence of this supposed quality education is often completely lacking. I read plenty of writing by college grads that is middle school level.

I have a college degree, however I paid it off as I went, and was very careful not to overspend. College now is too expensive to pay as you go, you need parent's money or loans/grants. There is almost no other way.

Colleges are basically just financially raping the kids and giving them a diploma that often gives them no demonstrable return on investment.

Spot on. College tuition costs should be going down not up! They should be going way down. Government stafford loans only help to keep costs high.

 

[MAJICJOHNSON]

As a taxpayer, if we keep subsidizing education, the institutions of higher learning will keep increasing the "costs" of an education to meet the ever increasing supply of taxpayer subsidized money.

Anyway, there is no pilot shortage. There is only a shortage of pilots willing to fly for regional compensation. That's the point ALPA has been trying to make.

Good point! Please spread the word. When I started out you could get all of your licenses for under $20,000.00 and the majors were making $300k.

 

[SIG600]

This guy gets it! Good for you. Investment is post-secondary education must yield a good middle income job. In post-secondary we are not talking strictly college, skilled trades like fixing cars, running Nuclear Power Plants and flying airplanes can lead to a good life.

Repeat, but it fits here. In high schools, the vocational arts have all but vanished. We've elevated the importance of "higher education" to such a lofty perch that all other forms of knowledge are now labeled "alternative." Millions of parents and kids see apprenticeships and on-the-job-training opportunities as "vocational consolation prizes," best suited for those not cut out for a four-year degree. And still, we talk about millions of "shovel ready" jobs for a society that doesn't encourage people to pick up a shovel. In a hundred different ways, we have slowly marginalized an entire category of critical professions, reshaping our expectations of a "good job" into something that no longer looks like work. A few years from now, an hour with a good plumber if you can find one is going to cost more than an hour with a good psychiatrist. At which point we'll all be in need of both. I came here today because guys like my grandfather are no less important to civilized life than they were 50 years ago. Maybe they're in short supply because we don't acknowledge them they way we used to. We leave our check on the kitchen counter, and hope the work gets done. That needs to change.

Shack. However that time has already come on supply vs demand.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Not to mention spending all that money and graduating with no skills that have any value to any employers. Reminds me of an article in the WSJ a while back were a Stanford graduate with a 4.0 in Art could not find a job except at Starbucks, and she was complaining it was just not fair becuase she had worked so hard. But a welder graduating from a trade school can start in $50K range with virutally no debt.

And this is a point that can't be made enough. I can't tell you how many dudes I fly with who sell themselves short for what they are worth (highly skilled labor that generates tangible revenue for the company) while decrying the praises of VEEPS and leaders that don't do squat for the bottom line other than increase overhead and wear out clip boards.

 

[jmreii]

Not to mention spending all that money and graduating with no skills that have any value to any employers. Reminds me of an article in the WSJ a while back were a Stanford graduate with a 4.0 in Art could not find a job except at Starbucks, and she was complaining it was just not fair becuase she had worked so hard. But a welder graduating from a trade school can start in $50K range with virutally no debt.

Too bad she didn't get that degree in business, then she could be your boss at an airline trying to decide how many pilots she can throw under the bus to pay for one of her vacation homes.

 

[atpcliff]

It is much, much easier to get student loans in Canada, and the universities there are much, much cheaper than in the US.

 

[CX880]

I totally agree with the notion that for half the college graduates their degree was worthless. Mine was too basically, granted I didn't go to a top school. We need to go to European models where instead of like here in the US where after high school your only perceived option is to go to "college", you have the option to go to trade school as well. That's actually embraced in other countries and it leads to jobs you can have a career in, here you're considered a loser if you go that route and it's targeted towards Maury and jerry springer audiences.

As for pilots we do not need a degree to fly planes, as far as I can remember all the guys without a 4 year were just as competent. I'm all for us having competent guys in the cockpit, but after all we fly planes, please leave your masters degree at home.

 

[pilotyip]

I totally agree with the notion that for half the college graduates their degree was worthless. Mine was too basically, granted I didn't go to a top school. We need to go to European models where instead of like here in the US where after high school your only perceived option is to go to "college", you have the option to go to trade school as well. That's actually embraced in other countries and it leads to jobs you can have a career in, here you're considered a loser if you go that route and it's targeted towards Maury and jerry springer audiences.

As for pilots we do not need a degree to fly planes, as far as I can remember all the guys without a 4 year were just as competent. I'm all for us having competent guys in the cockpit, but after all we fly planes, please leave your masters degree at home.

Thank you