There are people hired to come on these boards to influence.....

[Dumb Pilot]

There are also people on this board with way too much time on their hands

 

[wms]

Remember without managment there would be no airlines, kinda like women can't live with them; can't live without them.

And because of mgmt, there arean't as many as there used to be. Things that make you go, hmmm.

 

[pilotyip]

Wms, "there arean't as many as there used to be. What does that mean women, airlines, jobs managment? BTW 5 times as many people are flying than were flying 30 years ago, there are 4 times as many pilot jobs as there was 30 years ago, and all of the growth was had something to do with managment. Without the Part 119 manamgment guys there is no airline.

 

[DrewBlows]

Without the Part 119 manamgment guys there is no airline.

Without the Part 121 pilot guys there is no airline. What's your point?

 

[pilotyip]

Drew exactly!, takes both sides to make it work. There are good pilots and bad pilots, there is good managment and bad managment. Pilots are not the source of all troubles in the airline industrry, nor is managment the source of all troubles in the airline industry. We seem to bash managment the same way we bash SCABS, they do not deserve universal scorn.

 

[PCL_128]

We seem to bash managment the same way we bash SCABS, they do not deserve universal scorn.

Other than SWA and JetBlue, what other airline management is not deserving of such scorn? There may be a few good management types out there, but they are the extremely rare exception, not the rule.

 

[atrdriver]

Drew exactly!, takes both sides to make it work. There are good pilots and bad pilots, there is good managment and bad managment. Pilots are not the source of all troubles in the airline industrry, nor is managment the source of all troubles in the airline industry. We seem to bash managment the same way we bash SCABS, they do not deserve universal scorn.

The biggest problem, IMO, is that airline management aren't airline people anymore. They hire beancounters as CEO's, and they try to run the airline the way they ran Texaco, or a bank. An airline is a unique animal, and it needs to be run by people that understand that. SWA has Herb, and CAL was turned around by Bethune, who may have ruffled a few feathers, but he was an airline guy who understood the business.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

We seem to bash managment the same way we bash SCABS, they do not deserve universal scorn.

I agree, it's not fair to the SCABS to be compared to MANAGEMENT!!!

 

[pilotyip]

Why don't all the pilots who know how to manage an airline step forward and run an airline the way it should be run to make it a good place to work. There is severe shortage of capable airline mangers, and you scould save the industry. Really I mean it, I hear all the carping about managment, but its like the weather, just talk. BTW Funny S's Mom

 

[81Horse]

Why don't all the pilots who know how to manage an airline step forward and run an airline the way it should be run ...

What it really comes down to is leadership. It wouldn't matter if it came from within a company, or from outside; there's just a shocking lack of true leadership in the aviation industry -- but also in American business as a whole. We don't have Captains of Industry at the helms of corporations anymore -- we have modern-day Robber Barons.

It's a crying shame.

 

[Flip Conroy]

Then it's like Pilotyip said. Step up to the plate and DO SOMETHING about it, or quit bitching. It's typical behaviour. Point out the perceived faults of others in an attempt to make yourself look better. At least to you. But when it's time to put up or shut up, most just cower away because they don't have the knowledge or ability to do anything except complain.

 

[SuperKooter]

Not everyone who isn't dirnking the union koolaid is managment. Some people just have a realistic view of what is going to happen.

VOTE NO ON STRIKE

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Agree. Superpooter, atlcrjdriver, denumnuts, voiceofridulous, crashpad, etc, even ole Joe Merchant (although he's a pilot). Voting YES, strike ballots on the way.

(Sarcasm Alert)

You know what ASARJ, I confess, I was sent to this board by BL to infiltrate the line and bring down ALPA via flightinfo.com. I just got my stock option bonus for breaking the 100 post mark worth 750K and got July 4 off.

Dumb A**

 

[atrdriver]

Then it's like Pilotyip said. Step up to the plate and DO SOMETHING about it, or quit bitching. It's typical behaviour. Point out the perceived faults of others in an attempt to make yourself look better. At least to you. But when it's time to put up or shut up, most just cower away because they don't have the knowledge or ability to do anything except complain.

Most pilots DO suggest things that would make their company run better, smoother, or for less money. But getting into management, upper management at least, is something that, for the most part, is limited to those who have been there before. I would love a chance to be CEO of ASA. Whoever said that leadership is sorely lacking in this business is right on the mark. Pilots are problem solvers, and for the most part are hands on people. That is what this industry needs, not idiots that sit in their offices looking for ways to cut costs. Read "From Worst to First" sometime. It's very enlightening what a true leader can do for an airline.

 

[LAMESAUCE]

vote yes, only if they bring this year's christmas present to the picket line. and, instead of cookies, ask for some otter pops, it's hot out there.

 

[D'Angelo]

Anyone who doubts what Sedona16 is suggesting should read the book Confessions of a Union Buster by Mark Levitt. He spent over 20 years as a labor-busting consultant and finally had to leave the business because he realized how truly horrible the things he did were. After reading this book, you'll have no doubt that management will go to any lengths to bust a union. This is about ego and control, not business.

Nothing wrong with a union buster actually. youd be suprised but many people are frankly sick and tired of unions. They come in and try to tell everyone how to run their lives. Your mec speaks for you they say. The problem is they absolutely can't stand any dissenting view. Some people are simply happy with what they do and thats that. Unions never want you to be happy because they use anger to keep their agenda going. The second a union gets a new contracts its almost immediately talk about how they can rob the company blind next time a new one is due. Its refreshing that more and more people want to get rid of unions. The way they operate now does not work. We need to bust alpa and start over fresh. New blood with a vision for the future is what we need to save our careers. The problem is the unions have people so angry its going to take a long time for common sense to prevail.

 

[Sedona16]

Nothing wrong with a union buster actually. youd be suprised but many people are frankly sick and tired of unions. They come in and try to tell everyone how to run their lives. Your mec speaks for you they say. The problem is they absolutely can't stand any dissenting view. Some people are simply happy with what they do and thats that. Unions never want you to be happy because they use anger to keep their agenda going. The second a union gets a new contracts its almost immediately talk about how they can rob the company blind next time a new one is due. Its refreshing that more and more people want to get rid of unions. The way they operate now does not work. We need to bust alpa and start over fresh. New blood with a vision for the future is what we need to save our careers. The problem is the unions have people so angry its going to take a long time for common sense to prevail.

I asked some of these questions earlier but ill ask again. These are sincere questions so try not to be flip.

If every airline pilot in the industry were to abandon unions tomorrow (we'll assume they could do this overnight) what do you think would happen to work rules, pay, etc?

Do you think the majority of managers would be fair enough to keep this profession as a pilot worth having?

If the only governing balance came from supply and demand what would stop managers from turning this into an industry of 22 year olds who were happy to make 1000 a month?

How did all the work rules that even non union airlines (i.e. Skywest) enjoy now come into being?

What about safety....could airline managers be trusted to not put the almighty dollar ahead of some questionable work rules?

How much profit would it take before there was enough put away for a rainy day that managers could share more with the employees? At SkyWest corporate is making more money than they ever have in the entire history of the airline. Some people are getting rich. They are buying other airlines and planes for hundreds of millions of dollars, prepaying on engine overhauls years in advance to eliminate profit sharing money, etc but the most they say they can afford is 1.2 percent pay to the pilots....take it or leave it. In the past four years the work rules and things that used to make Skywest really something special have been raped and pillaged. Make no mistake as long as the managers can (and they can because there is nothing stopping them) they will continue to chip away at work rules and pay. Leadership is dead....it’s only about money in the top pockets and the shareholders. Do you disagree with this? PLEASE tell me where I am wrong. Please answer these questions with something that is even slightly believable?!

 

[atrdriver]

Nothing wrong with a union buster actually. youd be suprised but many people are frankly sick and tired of unions. They come in and try to tell everyone how to run their lives. Your mec speaks for you they say. The problem is they absolutely can't stand any dissenting view. Some people are simply happy with what they do and thats that. Unions never want you to be happy because they use anger to keep their agenda going. The second a union gets a new contracts its almost immediately talk about how they can rob the company blind next time a new one is due. Its refreshing that more and more people want to get rid of unions. The way they operate now does not work. We need to bust alpa and start over fresh. New blood with a vision for the future is what we need to save our careers. The problem is the unions have people so angry its going to take a long time for common sense to prevail.

Wrong idiot. Unions don't have people angry. Management has people angry. If management could be trusted to do the right thing and treat people well then there would be no need for unions at all. But, history has proved that management can't be trusted to do the correct thing, or treat it's employees well. INCLUDING AIRLINE MANAGEMENT.

Look at Wal-Mart. All part time employees, except for managers. Why do you think that is? Maybe because it's cheaper to hire 2 part timers with no benefits than it is 1 full timer with benefits? And when a Wal-mart store attempts to unionize they just close it down. If you think your job would be worth having without a union, or a threat of a union, you are deceiving yourself.

 

[pilotyip]

CEO go for it

ATR Driver if you would truly like to be CEO of ASA, stop flying get into business side, develop impressive credentials, get into one of the top MBA programs, and then take a mid-level entry job in airline management, at about the same as a top Capt.’s pay. Spend lots of extra hours at the office to include weekends to impress those who have the ability to recommend you for promotion. Make one or two great moves to other airlines where you move up to higher level jobs in the organization. Never loose touch with your pilot brother hood, so spend a lot of left over free time staying in touch. That will help you develop the leadership traits that are longed after by post of the posters. You will also have to network with those who can improve your career, be it church, the golf club or other civic duties. Forget about your family life if you go the track that will take you the CEO position in any company there will very few blocks of 4-5 days off in a row. BTW union shoppers are amongst Wal-Mart largest user, why because of pricing. I see the pro-union stricker on the bumpers of the cars in the parking lot.
.

 

[atrdriver]

ATR Driver if you would truly like to be CEO of ASA, stop flying get into business side, develop impressive credentials, get into one of the top MBA programs, and then take a mid-level entry job in airline management, at about the same as a top Capt.’s pay. Spend lots of extra hours at the office to include weekends to impress those who have the ability to recommend you for promotion. Make one or two great moves to other airlines where you move up to higher level jobs in the organization. Never loose touch with your pilot brother hood, so spend a lot of left over free time staying in touch. That will help you develop the leadership traits that are longed after by post of the posters. You will also have to network with those who can improve your career, be it church, the golf club or other civic duties. Forget about your family life if you go the track that will take you the CEO position in any company there will very few blocks of 4-5 days off in a row. BTW union shoppers are amongst Wal-Mart largest user, why because of pricing. I see the pro-union stricker on the bumpers of the cars in the parking lot.
.

I doubt that they are amongst their LARGEST shoppers, but yes, most people shop at Wal-mart simply because of the prices. Most people look the other way at the business practices. As far as being CEO of ASA, i don't spend time under desks, so that is not going to happen. And leadership skills for management is not something that I need to develop, I was in the business world for almost 20 years before I decided to make a career change.

 

[pilotyip]

Walmart OK?

ATR, So if the prices are lower because of lower costs, which may be due to unfavorable work rules, it is still ok to go for the lower price. Is that what you are saying? BTW don't forget you will also have to write close to a 650 on your GMAT to get into the good schools.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Morons

If you're going to say unions are nothing but bad news, then you'll have to say the same about the US government. The government is a collective formation of all us and our votes. Unions operate the same way so go ahead and bash, but you're just bashing yourself and all the other pilots on here. And yes unions (us) get greedy and that is a contradiction to unfortanute greed of management. Then they settle somewhere in the middle and some form of equalribium is maintained.

Oh and regards to Wal-Mart, I flew with someone who's wife has a white collar job in the office portion of a regional distribution center. The health insurance offered is such a joke that it was a brainer in using his. But hey, you saved 3 cents on a bottle of detergent.

 

[81Horse]

Then it's like Pilotyip said. Step up to the plate and DO SOMETHING about it, or quit bitching. It's typical behaviour. Point out the perceived faults of others in an attempt to make yourself look better. At least to you. But when it's time to put up or shut up, most just cower away because they don't have the knowledge or ability to do anything except complain.

Well, Flip -- your response is unthinking. I exercise leadership in my chosen profession (piloting). I'm looking for business "leaders" to show some leadership skills, too.

Your response makes about as little sense as saying: You think politicians are all corrupt and indecisive? Quit complaining, and BE a politician. You think doctors don't spend enough time providing quality care to patients? Quit complaining and BE a doctor. You think teachers aren't doing a very good job teaching children these days? Quit complaining, and BE a teacher.

The issue is this: when a system produces bad results, what can we say about the system? There are flaws in our political system, flaws in our healthcare system, flaws in our education system -- flawed individuals in every system.

There are also committed, high-quality individuals in every system -- even corporate management. But I do believe the modern system of big business does not value, promote, or exemplify traditional American ethical values; that is to say, leadership and personal responsibility.

Professional pilots, by and large, value leadership abilities to a very high degree; I think it's reasonable to question why so few of our corporate poobahs share our values. I think it's imperative that we question the system that produces amoral, greedy robber barons instead of captains of industry.

In my profession, I am held to high standards. What standards are CEOs held to? It is those standards I complain about. Telling me I should become a corporate CEO and change things is just plain stupid.

"You don't like how the President does things? Well, go BE the President." No -- that's not possible. I'm a pilot, not a politician or a politician's son. But I can exercise my right to complain, and to vote.

 

[atrdriver]

ATR, So if the prices are lower because of lower costs, which may be due to unfavorable work rules, it is still ok to go for the lower price. Is that what you are saying? BTW don't forget you will also have to write close to a 650 on your GMAT to get into the good schools.

I do not agree with Wal-mart's labor policy. Or Target's either for that matter, as they do the samae thing as Wal-mart regarding labor. Do I shop at Wal-Mart? Yes, occasionally. And yes, the reason I go there when I do is price. Is that right? No, probably not. But that is what corporate management is getting to.

There are "good" and "bad" ways to increase the value of a company, and IMO crapping on labor isn't the way to do it. I don't believe that most people should have to have 2 or 3 jobs to get by. Many companies today, however, do exactly that. And the managers don't care because their shareholder value is where it needs to be, and they are getting their money, after all. Why take care of the employees if you don't have to? Maybe because it's the right thing to do.

 

[D'Angelo]

I asked some of these questions earlier but ill ask again. These are sincere questions so try not to be flip.

If every airline pilot in the industry were to abandon unions tomorrow (we'll assume they could do this overnight) what do you think would happen to work rules, pay, etc?

Do you think the majority of managers would be fair enough to keep this profession as a pilot worth having?

If the only governing balance came from supply and demand what would stop managers from turning this into an industry of 22 year olds who were happy to make 1000 a month?

How did all the work rules that even non union airlines (i.e. Skywest) enjoy now come into being?

What about safety....could airline managers be trusted to not put the almighty dollar ahead of some questionable work rules?

How much profit would it take before there was enough put away for a rainy day that managers could share more with the employees? At SkyWest corporate is making more money than they ever have in the entire history of the airline. Some people are getting rich. They are buying other airlines and planes for hundreds of millions of dollars, prepaying on engine overhauls years in advance to eliminate profit sharing money, etc but the most they say they can afford is 1.2 percent pay to the pilots....take it or leave it. In the past four years the work rules and things that used to make Skywest really something special have been raped and pillaged. Make no mistake as long as the managers can (and they can because there is nothing stopping them) they will continue to chip away at work rules and pay. Leadership is dead....it’s only about money in the top pockets and the shareholders. Do you disagree with this? PLEASE tell me where I am wrong. Please answer these questions with something that is even slightly believable?!

Its quite simple really if unions were abandoned overnight I do believe mistakes would be learned from. Management would know that if they don't keep it together a union would be brought back in. Being a non union airline provides much more flexibility. You don't have to ask the union everytime you want to go pee pee. If work rules and pay just started getting slashed to the bone there would be a mass exodus and unions would be back. Answer me this though why is it so hard to get rid of a union? Why is it so easy to get one on the property yet so hard to get one off? There is not even a set way per the RLA to get rid of a union. Thats pretty cowardly if you ask me.

I do admit unions certainly have contributed to where we are today. The problem is like an old general they simply refuse to change their ways. They try the same strategy over and over leading people right into the unemployment line. Its clear that the picketing, making slogans, and even the strike threat doesn't work. If an employee group goes on strike the company simply liquidates, takes their parachute and the flying goes to someone else who does it for less anyway. Thats assuming you even get permission to strike. As long as there is a glut of flying we will all have this problem. Why hasn't the union come up with new solutions. They have absolutely no new plan that I have seen. They say its not fair over and over but why do they not offer any solutions? Example at ASA flying is being transfered to skywest and all that is being said is thats not right, etc. etc. The union has yet to offer any new solutions. They are trying the same tactics over and over. So far its not working. Does anyone even care when someone pickets? I argue they do not. You see so many people picketing anymore no one even cares what the message is. The shareholders don't care anymore either they know its just more union drama. So thats my question what is our unions plan for the future? I have yet to see one person even try to come up with a new solution.

There are a lot of 22 year olds out there however the main reason they do the 1000/month is they think there is a light at the end of the tunnel. If there is no light at the end of the tunnel I guarantee not nearly as many would be doing it. Doctors do just fine without a union. The problem is doctors simply won't work for less than xxx amount of money and they are in high demand.. Pilots are not in high demand, there are simply too many of us out there A union keeps wages artificially high when the market really simply can't bear it.

I do also believe managers would be forced to make this a better job. If enough people just won't do it then they have to do something to lure people in. It all starts with self respect. Personally I don't see why we need a union for that. If enough people won't do the job unless treated fairly then it will happen. The problem is unions have everyone all worried that without them their career is doomed from the beginning.

 

[pilotyip]

Not the answer for every evil

Just add a little fuel to the fire, what about the UAW auto builders vs the non-union auto builders? Nearly the same pay at both places, but much higher productivity at the non-union places. What keeps the the wages high at the non-union places? Probably the threat of a union coming on site. So what is to say that a non-union airline would not strive to keep the union out by providing wages and benfits that are close to industry standards. As a former union member at 2 defunct airlines, unions can not make a bad place good or profitable, they can not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Not everyone who isn't dirnking the union koolaid is managment. Some people just have a realistic view of what is going to happen.

Ahhh. Here's the solution to listening to this poser flamebaiter.

This message is hidden because SuperKooter is on your ignore list.</SPAN>

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Its quite simple really if unions were abandoned overnight I do believe mistakes would be learned from. Management would know that if they don't keep it together a union would be brought back in. Being a non union airline provides much more flexibility. You don't have to ask the union everytime you want to go pee pee. If work rules and pay just started getting slashed to the bone there would be a mass exodus and unions would be back. Answer me this though why is it so hard to get rid of a union? Why is it so easy to get one on the property yet so hard to get one off? There is not even a set way per the RLA to get rid of a union. Thats pretty cowardly if you ask me.

I do admit unions certainly have contributed to where we are today. The problem is like an old general they simply refuse to change their ways. They try the same strategy over and over leading people right into the unemployment line. Its clear that the picketing, making slogans, and even the strike threat doesn't work. If an employee group goes on strike the company simply liquidates, takes their parachute and the flying goes to someone else who does it for less anyway. Thats assuming you even get permission to strike. As long as there is a glut of flying we will all have this problem. Why hasn't the union come up with new solutions. They have absolutely no new plan that I have seen. They say its not fair over and over but why do they not offer any solutions? Example at ASA flying is being transfered to skywest and all that is being said is thats not right, etc. etc. The union has yet to offer any new solutions. They are trying the same tactics over and over. So far its not working. Does anyone even care when someone pickets? I argue they do not. You see so many people picketing anymore no one even cares what the message is. The shareholders don't care anymore either they know its just more union drama. So thats my question what is our unions plan for the future? I have yet to see one person even try to come up with a new solution.

There are a lot of 22 year olds out there however the main reason they do the 1000/month is they think there is a light at the end of the tunnel. If there is no light at the end of the tunnel I guarantee not nearly as many would be doing it. Doctors do just fine without a union. The problem is doctors simply won't work for less than xxx amount of money and they are in high demand.. Pilots are not in high demand, there are simply too many of us out there A union keeps wages artificially high when the market really simply can't bear it.

I do also believe managers would be forced to make this a better job. If enough people just won't do it then they have to do something to lure people in. It all starts with self respect. Personally I don't see why we need a union for that. If enough people won't do the job unless treated fairly then it will happen. The problem is unions have everyone all worried that without them their career is doomed from the beginning.

I wouldn't be so sure about doctors not needing a union. The health care situation is on the downturn with for profit HMOs running rampant and the doctor profession has lost some luster. Why do the SWA pilots have a union when their employer is considered tops in treating employees well? I also like your whole theory that companies will treat their employees well because of the threat of unionization. So you hate unions, but recognize that they create a good threat to management in achieving good work conditions. Nice chicken and egg, what came first, scenario.

 

[D'Angelo]

I wouldn't be so sure about doctors not needing a union. The health care situation is on the downturn with for profit HMOs running rampant and the doctor profession has lost some luster. Why do the SWA pilots have a union when their employer is considered tops in treating employees well? I also like your whole theory that companies will treat their employees well because of the threat of unionization. So you hate unions, but recognize that they create a good threat to management in achieving good work conditions. Nice chicken and egg, what came first, scenario.

The bad management came first of course, the unions came along next. The threat of unionization is a good tool in keeping companies in line. Now the problem is unions arent changing their ways. They refuse to acknowledge the old picketing/strike system etc isn't working anymore. Heres one secret, Southwests union is an in hosue union. Thats why they are so successful. Its run by the employees from the ground up. ALPA is a big policitcal machine strictly in it for the money. ALPA is there to create tension, Southwest is respresented strictly by the employees. Thats why we need more in house groups and less national archaic unions that refuse to adapt. No union is still better but at least with an in house one you have a chance at better relations with management. Also the problem is every profession loses its luster at some point. The more people that want to do it the more it drives the wages down.

 

[PCL_128]

Just add a little fuel to the fire, what about the UAW auto builders vs the non-union auto builders? Nearly the same pay at both places, but much higher productivity at the non-union places. What keeps the the wages high at the non-union places? Probably the threat of a union coming on site. So what is to say that a non-union airline would not strive to keep the union out by providing wages and benfits that are close to industry standards. As a former union member at 2 defunct airlines, unions can not make a bad place good or profitable, they can not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

You're absolutely right, yip! Non-union employers have to at least come close to matching union shops, otherwise the employees will bring a union on the property. However, if Duh'Angelo's wet-dream became a reality and unions ceased to exist, then what would happen? No more threat of a union, so management would revert to their true greedy nature and slash wages, benefits, and working conditions. You have to have at least the threat of a union or the entire profession collapses. The only exception might be SWA where it seems that management actually understands that high employee morale actually contributes to the bottom line. I've seen no evidence that any other airline management team understands this basic principal.