The Silent Majority at ASA

[JoeMerchant]

To all naysayers! Our contract is not a bargaining tool to rid the world of RFP injustice. Granted the portfolio package is crap for labor, but business is still business and I can't see Jerry spending several million to replace ASA just to save a couple million!! You guys are truly scared of a myth. The myth of Jerry Atkin!!!! BOOOOOOH!!!! Run for your lives!!!!! If Jerry wants to bring down ASA then so be it, but I will not sell out as you have done. And as far as a silent MAJORITY!! HA HA HA HA! I think not!!! The majority of the people I speak with are as pissed as I am and are willing to sacrafice a little pain and anguish to get all things need to make this a good contract. That means Scope, Rigs, Retirement, Pay, and let us not forget RETRO, LOTS OF IT!!!! How come none of you guys are on the ALPA board spreading your vile. Is it because you are afraid of the real majority? If you would like to carry on this debate as men and not on an anonymous board PM me and I will give you my name and phone number and we will continue.

Joe M I know you are on the ALPA boards and as much as what you say pi$$es me off, atleast you have the balls to put your name on it. As for the rest of you, Pathetic.

outtahere,

You are once again putting the cart before the horse. ALPA must address the competition within a brand before we get too concerned about pricing ourselves out of a job. Don't think it can happen? Look at the 10,000 mainline jobs that were outsourced to the regionals. Then look at the ACA, ALG, PDT, CCAir, Mesaba, CMR, and Air Wisc. jobs that were lost and transfered as they lost flying to other regionals.

As to people here posting on the ALPA boards, I agree with you that I would like to see more debate over there. However it is people on YOUR side of the debate that have prevented this. Look what happens when you question ALPA... your side makes personal attacks. This is done for one reason.... to silence the opposition.

For the record, I know that JP, Fins, OhPlease, and VeeOne have posted on the ALPA board using their names. I also know that ASARJMan and Speedtape post on the ALPA boards. One thing you will notice is that the first group I listed posts pretty much the same way here that they do there. The last two are much more ballsy when they can hide behind their anonomous screen name.....

 

[~~~^~~~]

your side makes personal attacks. This is done for one reason.... to silence the opposition.

Heck, someone from National tried (or threatened) to get me audited by the IRS.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The population of the US re-elected Bush despite every objective reason not to. They elected his father and he signed the Americans With Disabilities Act and the Family Medical Leave Act. Heck, Nixon gave us the National Endowment for the Arts. So yes, I would say that is in fact how it has worked in the past. Guess they needed a reason to put the word "irony" in the dictionary.

The MEC and CNC know that management analyzes their public releases as much as we analyze and read into what management tells the pilots. As a result you will never hear a concession in a public release. However, when I speak with our Representatives one on one, they seem to have good situational awareness. I can not explain JR's comment - he impressed me as being smarter than that when he did safety work. Fatigue maybe?

Instead of a decert, why don't we give our CNC some relief. No team runs their players for the entire game and management changes players keeping our CNC off balance. So why not use management's tricks and change up our CNC? They have done a great job, let them rest for an inning and get ready for the seventh inning stretch.

Your right about Bush, but he is pandering to the middle of the road crowd which is necessary to get elected. If you want less govt., you really have to support the Libertarian party..... The Republican party is just the lesser of two evils..

Back on topic, you are right about the CNC, however once again that goes against ALPA strategy. The current MEC will resist that because it will be perceived as weekness, and for that reason they will not want to change quarterbacks in the middle of a drive. I disagree with that, but then what's new......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Heck, someone from National tried (or threatened) to get me audited by the IRS. He alleged I was getting rich from RJDC donations and trip drops. No kidding.

See Fins, this why ALPA needs to go! This is absurd that we are allowing ALPA national to run things into the ground, and on top of it, we allow them to threaten us... We pay the bills, and they work for US....

Time for ALPA to go.... how can you support an organization that does this to you?

However it does show how effective RJDC is. They are scared of it, or they wouldn't go to such efforts....

 

[~~~^~~~]

If you want less govt., you really have to support the Libertarian party.....

Not if you want to work in the airline business. These psychological and "personality" tests clearly are designed to kick out anarchists and those who do not respect and abide by the rules. When you see how it works, you understand the results.

It is a shame there is not a "Jeffersonian" party for those of us who are pragmatic Libertarians. My second published paper was the "Apostle of Liberty's occasional Apostasies." Sorry for the thread creep.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not if you want to work in the airline business. These psychological and "personality" tests clearly are designed to kick out anarchists and those who do not respect and abide by the rules. When you see how it works, you understand the results.

It is a shame there is not a "Jeffersonian" party for those of us who are pragmatic Libertarians. My second published paper was the "Apostle of Liberty's occasional Apostasies." Sorry for the thread creep.

Not necessarily. Libertarians would tend to allow weaker carriers to go out of business, and would allow carriers to merge. Both of these actions would limit the competition and allow for fares to increase. Things would be different now if USAirways and United had gone out of business.... Not to mention the effects on legacy costs (health care and pensions) which would befefit from a different approach....

Back to the topic....
We now resume your regularly scheduled ASA B!tch fest........

 

[outtahere]

Just one last ? What will all of you say if the NMB comes back with a proffer?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Just one last ? What will all of you say if the NMB comes back with a proffer?

Let me give you my honest opinion of what happens from here.

1. Highly unlikely that we get a release. I would put the odds as follows:
More dates 80%
Release 10%
Parked 10%

2. It is not impossible that we get a release, however IF we do, then Skywest will give into all or most of our demands at the 11th. hour. There will be no strike. Then Skywest will shrink ASA, and grow Skywest. The 700s/900s and ATR replacement aircraft will go to Skywest. The 200 fleet and ATR fleet will be reduced at ASA. ASA will not go away because Skywest needs the second certificate due to non-compete clauses with United and other mainlines. However ASA will be about one half the size it is now, in a few years.

3. Either way, Skywest will not vote ALPA in because Jerry will take care of his non-union side of the house. Either way, they will not see any value in ALPA.

Outtahere, what will you say if my predictions come true?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Exactly. SkyWest has a contingency plan and probably a contingency plan for that plan. Atkin impressed me with his ability to cover all his bases back when it looked questionable whether Delta would remain a viable business partner.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Exactly. SkyWest has a contingency plan and probably a contingency plan for that plan. Atkin impressed me with his ability to cover all his bases back when it looked questionable whether Delta would remain a viable business partner.

This is the problem with ALPA fins. Long term strategy for ALPA is 6 months from now.... while management is thinking 5-10 years down the road. As I have said before, we are playing checkers and management is playing chess.... Heck we aren't even playing with the decision makers.....

 

[outtahere]

Well Joe, if Skywest gives in to all of our demands, scope being one of those, they will not be able to shrink ASA will they? If your predictions are true, well I guess I will lose faith of ever getting a release at that point as bad as it hurts to say. However, I will still support my MEC as that is all we have and lack of support shows weakness.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well Joe, if Skywest gives in to all of our demands, scope being one of those, they will not be able to shrink ASA will they? If your predictions are true, well I guess I will lose faith of ever getting a release at that point as bad as it hurts to say. However, I will still support my MEC as that is all we have and lack of support shows weakness.

There is absolutely nothing in our scope protection proposal that prevents Skywest Inc. from growing Skywest at the expense of ASA..... Why will you continue to support a losing team? At what point do you pull the quarterback in hopes of turning things around? Do you ride the support into the ground?

Forget about "showing weakness", as management already knows that ALPA is weak.... that ship sailed years ago. Time to regroup and formulate a "plan B". As Fins said, management has a plan B, C, and D... while ALPA clutches it's plan A as though it is the only plan....

 

[VeeOne]

Well Joe, if Skywest gives in to all of our demands, scope being one of those, they will not be able to shrink ASA will they? If your predictions are true, well I guess I will lose faith of ever getting a release at that point as bad as it hurts to say. However, I will still support my MEC as that is all we have and lack of support shows weakness.

Outtahere-

As we covered before, the scope protections we seek could probably be bypassed through aircraft replacement and swaps. One list is the ultimate protection against this. I am not the bigtime hotshot or know-it-all in regard to how to achieve this. This is something for our elected MEC to work with national over.

Also, it is possible to support your MEC/NMB even if you don't agree 100% in what they say. Remember, they work for US. Our questions, concerns, and even discent provide them with guidance. Obviously, there are different avenues to this- some right, others wrong. I support my MEC, but I don't necessarily agree with what we are asking for. I merely believe that we need to adjust, and not turn this into a battle of warring factions, or a show of balls. Like many, I'm looking for good results out of this. To me, it isn't about what we DON'T have, and more of what we DO have......even to build on with another contract 3 years from now.

 

[GeekMaster]

Outtahere-

The new game in town is "retire and award". If ASA gives us EVERY LAST SCOPE ITEM WE HAVE ON THE TABLE, it won't stop this. No furlough won't even slow them down since our natural attrition will keep pace with A/C retirements. Since "retire and award" isn't a "transfer", that scope clause is out the window too.

I support my union and believe that recall, decertification, and single carrier petition are a bit too radical right now. I and over 60% of our pilot group just want my reps to accurately hear us and refocus our negotiating goals.

 

[VeeOne]

Outtahere-


I support my union and believe that recall, decertification, and single carrier petition are a bit too radical right now. I and over 60% of our pilot group just want my reps to accurately hear us and refocus our negotiating goals.

Well stated- I am very much a part of the 60% of the pilot group of which you speak.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Outtahere-

This is something for our elected MEC to work with national over.

Be very careful with this.... ALPA national has an agenda just like any other entity. At this time, it is to protect ALPA, and if necessary to use the ASA pilots as a sacrificial lamb.... We are being used to make a point... and ALPA is not being totally honest with you....

 

[737 Pylt]

Be very careful with this.... ALPA national has an agenda just like any other entity. At this time, it is to protect ALPA, and if necessary to use the ASA pilots as a sacrificial lamb.... We are being used to make a point... and ALPA is not being totally honest with you....

Don't you ever get tired of this?
How much has the rjdc done for you JB? Except for draining you supporters of its hard earned $$, I'd say squat! Personally I think ALPA sucks, but its sure a lot better than what you guys are offering.
Your anti ALPA rhetoric is tiresome!
Grow up!

737

 

[JoeMerchant]

Don't you ever get tired of this?
How much has the rjdc done for you JB? Except for draining you supporters of its hard earned $$, I'd say squat! Personally I think ALPA sucks, but its sure a lot better than what you guys are offering.
Your anti ALPA rhetoric is tiresome!
Grow up!

737

Personally I think RJDC is responsible for DALPA not trying to cram any type of Jets4Jobs down our throats. I also think it is responsible for the scope limit getting raised each time we come up to it. ALPA is concerned about the lawsuit and it shows.

In short, I believe RJDC has done more to protect us than ALPA has...

Don't worry, you guys won the PID.... there will never be a single list at Delta... I am going to support was is best for me, and you will support what is best for you...

Just curious 737, but why do you believe that "ALPA sucks", and what do think should be done about it? Do think it can be fixed?

 

[737 Pylt]

Personally I think RJDC is responsible for DALPA not trying to cram any type of Jets4Jobs down our throats.

I guess it has nothing to do with the fact that the DL MEC didn't press the issue either?!

I also think it is responsible for the scope limit getting raised each time we come up to it. ALPA is concerned about the lawsuit and it shows.

The ONLY reason the scope limit has been getting raised is because the DL pilot group agrees to raise it! If you want to tell your supporters your hogwash, then have at it.....If they believe you, then they are even more stupid than you for saying it!

In short, I believe RJDC has done more to protect us than ALPA has...

COOL! Let me know how you make out with the rjdc when you bust an altitude or a hold short line! I'll be anxiously awaiting your response!

Don't worry, you guys won the PID.... there will never be a single list at Delta... I am going to support was is best for me, and you will support what is best for you...

I'm glad we can agree on that. The PID was nothing more than a couple of lackey's high fiving each other who thought they were going to be instantly promoted to 737/767 captains. It was a grab at another airlines' seniority, and you know it!

Just curious 737, but why do you believe that "ALPA sucks",

I'm disgusted with the whole way this "age 60" has been handled! The majority of ALPA pilots wanted the status quo, but the current leadership chose to go the way it wanted. It shouldn't be surprising as that he works for CAL and with the majority of scabs working for that airline, and them wanting change, its expected!

and what do think should be done about it? Do think it can be fixed?

I've already been in contact with my reps about a recall at the national level. How far will it go? Probably not very, but at least I can say I'm doing more than my "anti alpa" drivel on a message board!

737

 

[John Pennekamp]

I guess it has nothing to do with the fact that the DL MEC didn't press the issue either?!


The ONLY reason the scope limit has been getting raised is because the DL pilot group agrees to raise it! If you want to tell your supporters your hogwash, then have at it.....If they believe you, then they are even more stupid than you for saying it!


COOL! Let me know how you make out with the rjdc when you bust an altitude or a hold short line! I'll be anxiously awaiting your response!


I'm glad we can agree on that. The PID was nothing more than a couple of lackey's high fiving each other who thought they were going to be instantly promoted to 737/767 captains. It was a grab at another airlines' seniority, and you know it!


I'm disgusted with the whole way this "age 60" has been handled! The majority of ALPA pilots wanted the status quo, but the current leadership chose to go the way it wanted. It shouldn't be surprising as that he works for CAL and with the majority of scabs working for that airline, and them wanting change, its expected!



I've already been in contact with my reps about a recall at the national level. How far will it go? Probably not very, but at least I can say I'm doing more than my "anti alpa" drivel on a message board!

737

737 "pylt", as much as you annoy me, that post earned your way off my ignore list. Well said. (Not that you really care what I think).