The Russian

[landlover]

wait?!?!?!? the russian is a girl?

 

[Wiggums]

I don't know how to land a B1900 with an unsafe gear--never flew one--but if I thought there was a 5% chance that shutting down an engine in the flare would make it safer for my pax than NOT doing so--I'd do it. I'm not concerned with being "compliant with policy" at that point--I'm worried about saving lives.

First we are talking about the Dash8-400, which is my fault for not linking back to the original thread.

There is always a possibility that doing something outside of the QRH will be the better course of action. However, these are situations where things are really going wrong like the DC-10 Sioux City accident.

Here we are talking about a typical abnormal, gear unsafe. Most of the time these are false.

Now a few pilots don't understand that they are not engineers or test pilots. More knowledgeable people then me devolved the procedures and put them in the QRH. If they thought the engines should be shutdown on the Dash8 with a unsafe gear indication they would have put it in the book.

If you start making up your own procedures you become a test pilot, but without the knowledge you need of the aircraft and with passengers in the back. While this aircraft is no 747 I would not want to try stopping it with no spoilers and backup hyd from the battery. On a complicated aircraft you also have the issue of unintended consequences. You may find your new procedure causes another problem that was never considered because the aircraft was not certified in that manner.

 

[The_Russian]

Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLkW6ktt6V8

Then tell me if you KNEW you were going to impact the ground if killing the torque generator on the front might have made the impact more survivable?

I've seen guys and gals more involved in running a checklist than flying the airplane at times during sims. I've also heard the comment "I want to get that checklist on the tape..." Guys lose 2 engines and they want to get the checklist "on the record"? Fine--but let's fly the jet first! Everyone's got opinions--here's mine: The checklist doesn't take the place of judgement, and reading is always secondary to flying. Flying the F-15--the easiest thing to do was KNOW the checklist. The SOF or a wingman can read it to you to confirm the high points, but your job is to fly first. I don't know how to land a B1900 with an unsafe gear--never flew one--but if I thought there was a 5% chance that shutting down an engine in the flare would make it safer for my pax than NOT doing so--I'd do it. I'm not concerned with being "compliant with policy" at that point--I'm worried about saving lives.

Too bad I'm in school and cant watch the vid right now. I will later.

I'm not saying that you agree with me, and I don't expect you to. The fact is, you are absolutely right in everything you have said in your post. Fly the airplane, save lives. I'd fly with your "opinion" anytime.

Good on ya' too.

 

[The_Russian]

First we are talking about the Dash8-400, which is my fault for not linking back to the original thread.

This has no bearing on proper technique for a gear unsafe landing.

There is always a possibility that doing something outside of the QRH will be the better course of action. However, these are situations where things are really going wrong like the DC-10 Sioux City accident.

Wrong. It could be as simple as any abnormal described in the book. The QRH cannot replace using primary techniques for flying aircraft. For example, a QRH does not tell you how to fly through an engine failure, it only guides you through the steps to secure the engine and reduce the drag with your control. My QRHs dont say "dead foot, dead engine" anywhere.

Here we are talking about a typical abnormal, gear unsafe. Most of the time these are false.

This is not an abnormal situation. A disagreement of lights is an abnormal (ie, one green, one red on a single gear). If you have completed the QRH emergency procedures and still cannot obtain a green indication, you have an emergency situation. Even if the gear is down, you must treat the situation as if the gear is actually unsafe. Like I said before, you cannot assume a "non-event", it isn't in your job description.

Now a few pilots don't understand that they are not engineers or test pilots. More knowledgeable people then me devolved the procedures and put them in the QRH. If they thought the engines should be shutdown on the Dash8 with a unsafe gear indication they would have put it in the book.

The manufacturer will not accept the liability of teaching you how to fly an airplane. It is our job to decide what is right for the situation to meet the needs of safety. Read you Airplane Flying Handbook and your AIM. The FAA suggests engines to be secured prior to touchdown or impact. These are the primary tehniques you are still required to apply to any airplane under any operation.

If you start making up your own procedures you become a test pilot, but without the knowledge you need of the aircraft and with passengers in the back.

No one is making up any procedures. We are assuming the procedures in the QRH are followed and completed. We are talking about meeting the emergency situation with proper technique and decision making. Thereby, reducing the threat of damage to the aircraft or injury to a passenger which the QRH cannot order, recommend, or describe.

While this aircraft is no 747 I would not want to try stopping it with no spoilers and backup hyd from the battery. On a complicated aircraft you also have the issue of unintended consequences. You may find your new procedure causes another problem that was never considered because the aircraft was not certified in that manner.

Not if you are confident in your knowledge of the aircraft and your decisions respect safety as primary.

 

[igneousy2]

WTF - shutdown both engines just prior to touchdown - PLEEEZE

Go back to the GA board - to say that shutting down both engines in the flare with 74 passengers on board because of an Unsafe gear indication is "proper technique" needs a Form-5 checkride NOW!

First - a DHC-8 400 is an Electric airplane - YOU CANT JUST SHUT the engines down and work everything else - BAD THINGS HAPPEN in electric airplanes when you suddenly turn off all the 28volt juice. Off the top of my head - Fire Detection - Anti-Skid Braking system - Normal brakes - Ground Spoiler activation - Cabin lighting - Roll Spoiler (so much for all the cross-wind correction you had). Not to mention you just took away the best way to slow down a turbo-prop - reverse. I am guessing that in the flare the prop would be in Flight-Beta (Electric control?) which would really make it a mystery as to what would happen if you suddenly shut the engines down.

Second - you are going to take two 14 foot diameter (I'm guessing +/-) propellers and take it from min (high drag) through max (low drag - with a nice little kick) and then to feather ( no drag) at 10 feet with each engine acting at split second intervals to the other - not quite at the same time - at a low airspeed. You will be all over the place - and being that no pilot has probably ever performed this aerobatic maneuver before in his career to that point - probably going to really F !_! ( K up the landing and hit really hard So IF the gear does collapse there will be a big question if it would have collapsed anyway had you just followed the procedure. Additonally - ask any 400 driver - you DO NOT REMOVE POWER until the wheels are ON THE GROUND or you pay the price.

Third - I realize that you have an "emergency", however I submit that there are different degrees of an "emergency" just like you can crap your pants or you can have explosive diarrhea in your pants. One is definetly preferable to the other. So Ms. Yeager - you shut two of your engines down on your Dash 8-400 and suddenly a gust of wind blows and now you are too high and drifting way left and you need power or the student pilot in a 152 doesn't hear the tower yelling at him to hold short of the runway and you need to go around - now what? You just took a semi-big deal emergency and got yourself into a situation where people ARE going to die.

Additionally - you do not KNOW the gear is going to collapse in this situation - yes it's unsafe - but is it a bad computer - bad prox switch - If you do this procedure the gear BETTER collapse or your career is over. I've had to stop on the runway and have mx come out and pin/inspect the gear because of a faulty indication so it isn't unheard of, I would even bet somewhat common.

The way I see the two SAS events is that with the exception of the initial failure - everything worked as planned. Yes the prop piereced the fuselage but it didn't puncture it in a place that injured anyone. The 1/2" Kevlar shield in the plane of the the props kept anything from penetrating where somebody would have gotten killed. No fire from impact. This happened twice - with presumably the same procedures used and in both cases nobody got killed.

Sounds like that at least as it relates to the QRH procedures used - it's a slam dunk success story.


This "shutting down two engines" BS is from the flight school operators/135 bosses/owners trying to keep there engines from getting trashed. I know it has worked for some people (they saved the engine) but it isn't something that I would ever do in an airline operation under these circumstances.

Run the checklist

Declare an emergency - Roll the trucks.

Maneuver to get time to complete all checklist and give FA time to prepare cabin for an emergency landing.

Possibly consult with mx/dispatch to see if they got any ideas.

Find the longest/widest runway possible considering the range capabilities of the airplane and the ARFF capabilities of the field.

Land as gently as you can.

Hope for the best.

That's it - this isn't rocket science.

 

[deluxxx]

DC-3 has better range on one engine.

 

[brainhurts]

This is really getting kooky. Follow the checklist. Are you really a girl?

 

[The_Russian]

WTF - shutdown both engines just prior to touchdown - PLEEEZE

Go back to the GA board - to say that shutting down both engines in the flare with 74 passengers on board because of an Unsafe gear indication is "proper technique" needs a Form-5 checkride NOW!

Sorry, posting on a message board about correct technique is not grounds for a "Form-5".

First - a DHC-8 400 is an Electric airplane - YOU CANT JUST SHUT the engines down and work everything else - BAD THINGS HAPPEN in electric airplanes when you suddenly turn off all the 28volt juice.

Wait, I thought it was a hydraulic airplane? Can't you guys make up your mind? Show me where the battery doesn't connect to the electrical system. It will, and that will give you electrical power when you shut down engines.

Off the top of my head - Fire Detection

Wel, you can't get enough of that.

- Anti-Skid Braking system - Normal brakes

It's not down (gear), you won't need them. Ground friction.

- Ground Spoiler activation

This can only hurt you by increasing drag and putting pressure on the gear during roll out. You want to apply the weight witha smooth technique.

- Cabin lighting

You have emergency lights.

- Roll Spoiler (so much for all the cross-wind correction you had).

You don't have ailerons? If I am rolling out with a gear that is not secure, I do not want any additional drag on the wing as I am trying to keep it off the runway until the last minute!

Not to mention you just took away the best way to slow down a turbo-prop - reverse.

You will not need this in the emergency landing phase. You will be skidding. If the gear holds, use aerodynamic and emergency braking.

I am guessing that in the flare the prop would be in Flight-Beta (Electric control?) which would really make it a mystery as to what would happen if you suddenly shut the engines down.

It won't feather first? What kind of Dash (let alone turboprop) are you flying? Even if it fails flat, you have the option of feathering first.

Second - you are going to take two 14 foot diameter (I'm guessing +/-) propellers and take it from min (high drag) through max (low drag - with a nice little kick) and then to feather ( no drag) at 10 feet with each engine acting at split second intervals to the other - not quite at the same time - at a low airspeed.

Simultaneous feathering. Grab both controls and feather. It is very simple. It will happen so fast that you will never feel a change in the aircraft until the feathering is complete. Then you compensate for the change. You are a pilot, you can do it I am sure of that.

You will be all over the place - and being that no pilot has probably ever performed this aerobatic maneuver before in his career to that point - probably going to really F !_! ( K up the landing and hit really hard So IF the gear does collapse there will be a big question if it would have collapsed anyway had you just followed the procedure.

Maintain directional control. It's easy.

Additonally - ask any 400 driver - you DO NOT REMOVE POWER until the wheels are ON THE GROUND or you pay the price.

Adjust your technique to prevent this from happening.

Third - I realize that you have an "emergency", however I submit that there are different degrees of an "emergency" just like you can crap your pants or you can have explosive diarrhea in your pants. One is definetly preferable to the other. So Ms. Yeager - you shut two of your engines down on your Dash 8-400 and suddenly a gust of wind blows and now you are too high and drifting way left and you need power or the student pilot in a 152 doesn't hear the tower yelling at him to hold short of the runway and you need to go around - now what? You just took a semi-big deal emergency and got yourself into a situation where people ARE going to die.

Wrong. The time to feather is when you are committed to land, in the flare, if not already on the mains. Stabilized approach. You are obviously misunderstanding what I am saying. I am NOT saying to shut it down even as far as over the numbers. If you are more than 5 feet off the ground you are too far from the runway to shut the engines down. Have you never seen this done?

Additionally - you do not KNOW the gear is going to collapse in this situation - yes it's unsafe - but is it a bad computer - bad prox switch - If you do this procedure the gear BETTER collapse or your career is over.

Why? Your career would not end for attepting to be safe. You have the right, as the Captain, to do what it required to meet the extent of the emergency.

I've had to stop on the runway and have mx come out and pin/inspect the gear because of a faulty indication so it isn't unheard of, I would even bet somewhat common.

Huh? So have I.

The way I see the two SAS events is that with the exception of the initial failure - everything worked as planned. Yes the prop piereced the fuselage but it didn't puncture it in a place that injured anyone. The 1/2" Kevlar shield in the plane of the the props kept anything from penetrating where somebody would have gotten killed. No fire from impact. This happened twice - with presumably the same procedures used and in both cases nobody got killed.

People got hurt. Some seriously, as a matter of fact. There was a fire, watch the video again. The right engine has black smoke coming from it. This aircraft DEPARTED the runway at an unnecessarilyextremely high velocity for the situation.

Sounds like that at least as it relates to the QRH procedures used - it's a slam dunk success story.

Airplane is totaled, passengers injured. Not a success.

This "shutting down two engines" BS is from the flight school operators/135 bosses/owners trying to keep there engines from getting trashed. I know it has worked for some people (they saved the engine) but it isn't something that I would ever do in an airline operation under these circumstances.

Read your FAA material. Screw the engines, just don't let the props kill anyone or cause you to lose control.

 

[The_Russian]

Well, I really didn't expect this type of reaction from my post. I can agree with you guys giving me a hard time for "Monday morning QB'n", but this is ridiculous. You must do what is nessecary to meet the emergency. If shutting down the engines is going to make the overall outcome safer, then you should do it. In the case of the SAS crash, things could have gone better.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I agree with the masses.

Follow the QRH. Maintain aircraft control and the accident will be survivable regardless of what you do with the props.