The Republican Airline Pilot a paradox?

[Timebuilder]

If you can cut taxes to prosperity, where is that prosperity right now? Bush cut taxes 3 YEARS AGO and I'm still pushing a Cessna 172 in Florida with 2850TT/360ME. The economy is not exactly rockin' out, bucko...Take a look at your latest paycheck, TimeBuilder...

Very interesting. You are flying and I'm not, yet you are the one who is more dissatisfied.

I think you need to look at this situation from a clearer perspective. Suppose for instance that Bush had not cut taxes and spurred a recovery. Would you still be pushing a 172 in Florida? The chances are very goood that you'd be joining thousands of pilots who are on the sideline right now. I don't put the blame on the president for my situation, unlike the well-funded democrats who are now vying for delegates. All of the situations we now find ourselves in are market driven.

Prosperity is something that develops. Economic variables don't act like switches, they act more like variable resistors. Go to your yahoo! page and look at market trends since Bush entered office. See a trend? This is what causes employees to be hired, and it is how jobs are created or lost. I heard another democrat talking head yesterday asserting that Bush had "lost" x-number of jobs in the past two years. Really? Had a former president hired these workers who had been displaced ? No, of course not. Government doesn't "create jobs", companies do.

I am far better off for this economic stimulus compared to where I might be had it not happened. Who should have their taxes cut the most? Answer: those who pay the most in taxes. If anyone needs a lesson in fairness, we can further discuss how the tax system punishes the creation of wealth.

Jobs come from people who are investing large sums of money. Plain and simple.

 

[surplus1]

Although I firmly believe Churchill when he said that "if you are not a liberal when you are young, you have no heart - and if you are not a conservative by the time you have grown older, you have no brain." is absolutely correct; there are quite a few liberals whose patriotism I don't doubt for a minute.

You might want to consider whether Sir Winston's definition of "conservative" is in any way similar to the Republican Party's definition. You might be surprised.

 

[Timebuilder]

While the British "Labour" and "Conservative" parties (only two of 15 parties) are somewhat different from our definition of "liberal" and "conservative" the observation of the ultra-idealism of youth and the wisened, well-informed choices of a more experienced citizen are well taken.

 

[surplus1]

While the British "Labour" and "Conservative" parties (only two of 15 parties) are somewhat different from our definition of "liberal" and "conservative" the observation of the ultra-idealism of youth and the wisened, well-informed choices of a more experienced citizen are well taken.

While Churchill's observations are indeed well taken, efforts to "convert" them into associating Sir Winston with today's FOX News label of conservatism in American politics fall short of the mark.

Churchill's history, his writings and his political acts, apart from his conduct of WWII, would clearly indicate that he is much more what folks like you choose to define as "liberal" than what you define as conservative.

Part of the "problem" with political advocates in our country, regardless of party affiliation, is the effort to adopt buzz words and sound bites that, unfortunately, motivate a mostly ill-informed body politic to supporting them on election day.

The hype works, caters to a TV focused audience, and fools the electorate, which is mostly unaware of the true (or even most) details behind substantive issues.

We seem as willing to elect a President whose every other word is "terrorism" (thus motiviating fear), as one who shouts "bring it on" as justification for his opposition to the other. I respectfully submit that neither of these cliches speak to the problems or the future of America. Basically, we might as well be in a vacuum.

Regretably the political content of American TV, source of our most salient thoughts on who should be our President and why, matches the content of most non-political programming. It has little to offer and borders on ignorance. Yet, its influence is evident and reflected in "discussions" such as this one. Mediocrity is in Vogue.

 

[Noam]

Voting Republician and being a "union worker" is not just an issue in the airline industry. There are many other blue collar and union workers in this country aside from aviation employees that are conservatives.

Read up on Karl Marx's discussions on worker "false consciousness". You don't have to agree with his communist rheotric, but his views on worker ignorance and apathy are second to none.

Compared to most other first world countries, American workers are getting screwed. Poor health care, poor retirement, few vacations and time off, and stress that is off the charts. Maybe someday American's will realize (compared to our European and industrialized Asian counterparts) that we are getting screwed.

Until then...these "false consciousness workers" will vote REPUBLICIAN.

I have no problem with the conservative point-of-view. In fact, I appreciate the government minding their own business supporting an individual work ethic. However, George Bush is as much of a conservative as Fidel Castro is a captialist. All Bush (and unfortunately most other republicians and democrats) does is lobby for wealthy Americans and their interests. The man is totally corrupt (as are most other politicians).

Noam @ ATA

 

[blueridge71]

I am a conservative airline pilot and I normally vote GOP.

The primary reason is that the GOP platform is closest to my ideology. For my three top domestic issues (aboriton, gun control, taxes), the Democrats are on the wrong side of all three. Furthermore, I find most of the Dem positions on social issues abhorrent.

Secondly, I don't trust the Democrats with national security issues. If Howard Dean and most of the rest (excluding Lieberman) don't believe that the world is a better place with Saddam off the streets, that only proves my point.

One of my pet peeves with ALPA, which I have a lot of peeves with, is that they use my hard-earned dollars to support candidates that I vigorously oppose.

Personally, most of the airline pilots that I know are some stripe of conservative. Most likely it is due to military (or military wannabe) backgrounds, together with the desire to not pay excessive taxes .

 

[Timebuilder]

Churchill's history, his writings and his political acts, apart from his conduct of WWII, would clearly indicate that he is much more what folks like you choose to define as "liberal" than what you define as conservative.

On what evidence do you base this assertion? Are you suggesting that Churchill would support what our own elitist liberals would be supporting for the future of America? The corruption of what was once thought of as "liberal" positions to a socialists-only, anything-goes, secular-humanist, hate-America-first group would make Churchill spin in his grave like a dervish.

Since you mentioned Fox News, I have an observation for you. People used to be sufficiently bamboozled by Peter Jennings and his soul mates at CNN, and they had grown suspicious that they were fed a load of malarkey.

Now, by switching to Fox News, they can hear what a liberal says, such as Maura Liasson (of National Public Radio) or Susan Estrich (currently the Robert Kingsley Professor of Law and Political Science at the University of Southern California and a member of the Board of Contributors of USA Today), or Geraldine Ferraro, AND what a conservative would say, often in the same segment.

You never, ever got that kind of side-by-side comparison from the major networks or CNN. ALL of that drivel was right out of the DNC manual. Because we are now comparing Fox to a group of birds that all sang the same song for decades, Fox looks very different. Perhaps that's why they are number one?

Maybe they, the American viewing public, got tired of the one-sided reporting at the other outlets. You NEVER heard a conservative viewpoint there.

 

[likeitis]

One of my pet peeves with ALPA, which I have a lot of peeves with, is that they use my hard-earned dollars to support candidates that I vigorously oppose.

Hmm, don't understand this one. It is illegal for them to give to any political candidates with you dues. PAC money is another thing, so if you don't back the PAC then what are they doing wrong? By the way ALPA-PAC has for years been considered by far the most unbiased of labor union PAC's for contributions to both major parties.

 

[Timebuilder]

Lately, I have received conflicting information about financial core status, which relates to a federal court ruling that allows you to pay only those dues which are concurrent with the costs of providing collective bargaining representation, and nothing toward political activities of the union.


Some have told me that the ruling only applies in "right to work" states, but I find it hard to believe that a court ruling could be limited by that kind of definition.

Some additional information is below.

This did not start in acting from what I have read.

http://www.mcalistertalent.com/ara/finlcore.htm

 

[barnyard]

Compared to most other first world countries, American workers are getting screwed. Poor health care, poor retirement, few vacations and time off, and stress that is off the charts. Maybe someday American's will realize (compared to our European and industrialized Asian counterparts) that we are getting screwed.

Noam @ ATA

You're kidding, right?

Welcome to America. Land of the Free. In this country, we get out of life what we put into it. Where we all end up in life is the result of the cumulative personal decisions we make. From grade school, to college, to our profession, we must live with effects of our choices. Does a junkie who does not complete grade school deserve good health care, vactaions??????? Retirement? No. Does someone who has a marketable talent willing to work hard to make things good for themselves and others deserve these things? Yes!
I saw recently that the average poor person in this country will earn more than your average European. In Europe you have a very wealthy (very small percent), and the 'working' class. The working class all fall under the same rules, work the same hours, earn an average pay. There is no advantage given to someone who works extra hard at their 35 hr. a week job. The slobs benefit as much as the hard workers! Is this fair?
Btw,
How much will a European airline pilot make compared to an American?

 

[skyrider]

Just ask the folks at AA how the most recent Whithouse Dem. helped their cause during negotiations a few years back. Sold them out is what that administration did. Give me a break......

 

[michael707767]

having grown up in a republican household, I used to wonder why anyone would vote for a democrat. Then after I left the military and became an airline pilot and a union member, I began to understand. I don't think most people agree with the left wing agenda. Most people who vote for a democrat do so for one reason and one reason only, job protection. I finally figured that out. All my ideals about abortion, gun control, welfare, small government, etc, mean dick if I am out of work and cannot feed my family. I would rather pay higher taxes and keep my job thank you.

So, I have voted democrat often lately, because like many others, I vote my job. Having said that, this time around I will be voting republican. Why? As an airline pilot I think the biggest threat to my job, in the near future, is terrorism. And I think the republicans will do a better job fighting it.

 

[FN FAL]

Democrats and liberals are insane. Listen to their rhetoric on gun control, it doesn't even come close to making sense. Correlate that logic over to any issues they have a stand on besides gun control, and it's enough to freak a person out. They cannot be reasoned with logically about one issue, then they cannot be reasoned with logically about another issue. Sorry, them bastages is insane.

I don't care for the extreme right either, but I sure as heck aint voting Democrat in this next election.

As far as the original question posed in this thread, I would bet on big business if you want to see job security. Taxing it to death and regulating it to death at the hands of tax and spend Democrats is not the way to go.

 

[Noam]

QUOTE:

Originally posted by Barnyard:

You're kidding, right?

Welcome to America. Land of the Free. In this country, we get out of life what we put into it. Where we all end up in life is the result of the cumulative personal decisions we make. From grade school, to college, to our profession, we must live with effects of our choices. Does a junkie who does not complete grade school deserve good health care, vactaions??????? Retirement? No. Does someone who has a marketable talent willing to work hard to make things good for themselves and others deserve these things? Yes!
I saw recently that the average poor person in this country will earn more than your average European. In Europe you have a very wealthy (very small percent), and the 'working' class. The working class all fall under the same rules, work the same hours, earn an average pay. There is no advantage given to someone who works extra hard at their 35 hr. a week job. The slobs benefit as much as the hard workers! Is this fair?

Btw,
How much will a European airline pilot make compared to an American?

End of quote

Barnyard,

We get out of life what we put into it? Does a 10yr TWA captain who is now on the street and can't get another decent job deserve what he got? What about the hardworking USAIR pilot who now doesn't have enough retirement funds? Did he deserve it? Meanwhile, the executives of such companies clean up like bandits.

You are a good example of false consciousness. With the proliferation of regional airline pilot jobs and concessions, furloughs, etc...I would argue that European airline pilots on average probably make more money. I'm sure on average they also have more vacation days, which are required by LAW in most European countries. Remember, the majority of airline pilots these days are at the regional level...and there is only a small minority of major pilots that are making "good" salaries that we all remember were so common a few years ago.

Don't put words into my mouth, Mr. Barnyard. I never said that some slacker should get retirement. However, what about the majority of the middle class that works their butts off in this country and gets very little retirement, very little days off, while their CEO makes 500 times more than they do (compared to the European-Japan average of 10-30 times)?

It seems to me you don't realize what you are missing...let's see, your children go to college and don't break your bank, you get healthcare and don't break your bank, and you get 2-3 times more vacation than you are getting now, and you don't need to worry about your 401(k) investments for retirement. Of course...you will pay more taxes, but...

False consciousness dude, false consciousness.

 

[46Driver]

And in Europe you get feeble economies paying for massive social welfare programs while spending very little of their GDP on defense (they are still for all intents and purposes protected by Uncle Sam).

As for that 10 year TWA captain, well, that's the breaks and he can thank the seniority system for that as much as anything else. Somebody else on here correctly stated, "Life isn't fair, and its not supposed to be."

If you like Europe so much, move there. I am quite happy with our capitalistic society for it has made the US the strongest nation on this planet.

 

[bart]

It seems to me you don't realize what you are missing...let's see, your children go to college and don't break your bank, you get healthcare and don't break your bank, and you get 2-3 times more vacation than you are getting now, and you don't need to worry about your 401(k) investments for retirement. Of course...you will pay more taxes, but...

you will pay more taxes (and implicitly YOU will live off of this larceny)


The high achievers will pay for this system. Those that work the hardest and make the smartest decisions will be the ones that you send the government after to steal from. Generally, the people who support the socialist system are those that are doing poorly at fending for themselves and would benefit the most from stealing from others.

Why not just have the cajones to go and steal it from somebody?

Why do you have to puss out and get the govt to do it for you? Are you that lazy?


All the things you speak of are available to you, the problem is you will have to work and sacrifice to get them under the current system, which is exactly why you have a problem with it. You would rather plunder to get what you want, rather than work for it. I don't think that Washington and Jefferson and many others pledged their lives and fortunes so you could use elected officials to steal for you.

Why not go get a job and work and make smart decisions for yourself instead? Or are you too stupid to fend for yourself and therefore must get someone to do it for you?

You will feel better about your lot in the long run if you earn the things you want other people to provide for you.

 

[Snakum]

I'm a Centrist (the signature is a joke) and I am constantly amazed at members of BOTH camps ...

Liberals howl, cry and hold vigils for convicted killers on death row, yet howl, cry and hold vigils for a woman's right to murder her as yet unborn child, way past the point that the child could live outside the mothers body. BTW ... partial-birth abortions are the most unbelievably disgusting, evil act committed against humanity in this supposedly 'enlightened' age.

Conservatives (here anyway) are rabid Capitalists. They are party-line spewing robots who are usually the first to start personal insults as a result of their complete inability to see any color other than black and white. Totally closed-minded. Rabid Capitalists to a man. But as soon as their employer begins reacting to the normal business pressures resulting from this Capitalist system, then these same mud-slinging cultists can't get on the phone to their Union fast enough, and will splatter these forums with the sins committed by their evil, greedy Capitalist employers.

You guys are a riot. Where's my popcorn? I wanna watch the show ...



Minh

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I feel in part like a schmuck for not realizing the side effect of putting up such a post. To all of you wrapped up in the black and white, I'm right and your wrong mantra, get something...a life, a playstation, a hobby, something....heii..get laid!

I would like to respond to few that stuck to the original intent of my post...

****
blueridge71 said..
I am a conservative airline pilot and I normally vote GOP.

The primary reason is that the GOP platform is closest to my ideology. For my three top domestic issues (aboriton, gun control, taxes), the Democrats are on the wrong side of all three. Furthermore, I find most of the Dem positions on social issues abhorrent.

Secondly, I don't trust the Democrats with national security issues. If Howard Dean and most of the rest (excluding Lieberman) don't believe that the world is a better place with Saddam off the streets, that only proves my point.

One of my pet peeves with ALPA, which I have a lot of peeves with, is that they use my hard-earned dollars to support candidates that I vigorously oppose.

****
blueridge71,

michael707767 said it best. What is more important than your livelihood? ie Your ability to provide for yourself. Include a wife and even more importantly a child and the desire, rather the need to protect and provide, and issues such as gun control, abortion and taxes become secondary (albeit, still important!)

blueridge71 you have a common misunderstanding of ALPA-PAC. ALPA gives money to politicians to support ALPA issues. PAC money doesn't go towards abortion, taxes or gun control. It is only used to futher the airline piloting career. Give to the PAC! If Hilary Clinton supports airline pilots' issues then support her, when she supports wacko liberal BS then you don't. That is how CapHill works! Get rid of the emotion and stick to the issue. (said respectfully)

****
michael707767 said
having grown up in a republican household, I used to wonder why anyone would vote for a democrat. Then after I left the military and became an airline pilot and a union member, I began to understand. I don't think most people agree with the left wing agenda. Most people who vote for a democrat do so for one reason and one reason only, job protection. I finally figured that out. All my ideals about abortion, gun control, welfare, small government, etc, mean dick if I am out of work and cannot feed my family. I would rather pay higher taxes and keep my job thank you.

So, I have voted democrat often lately, because like many others, I vote my job. Having said that, this time around I will be voting republican. Why? As an airline pilot I think the biggest threat to my job, in the near future, is terrorism. And I think the republicans will do a better job fighting it.
****

micheal707767,

I agree with you completely. I was brought up Navy, but being a blue collar labor career airline pilot I had to switch gears to Dems. That doesn't mean I am an ACLU type, and all the other liberal agendas. And that is the real problem with politics. People like branding. "I only wear Tommy Hilfiger, drive Acuras and eat Papa Johns." This is self imposed dictatorship. It is the issues not the party! Find out what you are about and support the issues! 10 years from now I may be a small business owner and vote republican. But for now I'm labor and the Dems support my job.

I do think the war on terrorism is vigiliant enough for the dems to take control of the white house. Wasn't FDR a Democrat?

Thanks for the mature posts...

 

[flying4life]

I enjoy reading these as much as the next guy. Snakum, you made me laugh. Here on this board we discuss some very somewhat important issues. What's funny is to see the banting back and forth. I'm on the side of the conservative. Tony C~ and Time Builder speak far better than I and I enjoy their responses. Mostly, I believe in our President. He may lack some polish for international diplomacy, but he is human. I'm glad we get to pick on one person in charge and blame him for everything wrong(Not Really). I can't imagine being President during 9-11. Knowing the other side is just waiting to blame you for the economic state our country is in. He means what he says, and does a great job getting the required votes across party lines to get the job done. On domestic issues, the economy specifically, it is booming. It hasn't grown this fast in 30 years.... What about jobs?, they are the last thing to come back in a recovering economy. They are like the airline industry.... as the economy falls off.... people still have resvervations so the airline is one of the last to fall... and likewise when the economy starts to rise...the airline is last to recover because the reservations aren't made until the money is there.... jobs are the same way. After 9-11, we needed to stimulate our crippled economy. 50,000 jobs in two buildings alone were lost that day....not to mention all the other jobs around our nation and the world. You can't just wipe that away and act like it didn't happen. When I say that, I'm including the requirements to prevent it from happening again. Lot's of the money that is being spent now is part of prevention. As far as homeland security is concerned, I wouldn't want a Dem up there cutting back our defenses. Anyway ....let the banting continue.... I'm off to get my bag of popcorn too.... see ya guys

 

[Snakum]

heii..get laid!

I did ... about 45 minutes ago. I went to my girlfriend's house at lunch to sit with her kid following dental surgury (all four wisdom teeth out ) and after she came back with the prescription and apple sauce, she decided to repay my kindness by knock'n my boots.

Needless to say ... I could not get upset, angry, or peturbed this afternoon if you held a gun to my head.



Ain't new love grand? Give it six months and I'll be looking for excuses NOT to meet her at lunch for a quickee.

Minh "The Bad Monk" Thong