the pro's and cons of unions in the fractional aviation and airline industry

[imacdog]

YIP you haven't answered my question yet. Why did you leave some of your work rules out of your post? You must keep preaching this bullcrap so the pilots you hire come in with sub-standard expectations. This is a career, not a hobby, and many pilot groups choose to have professional representation on their side against managers whose wet dream is to pay crap wages with no quality of life and can fire at any time for any reason. So please YIP, stop dispensing your bullcrap. No one here is buying it.

 

[gunfyter]

Classic, classic, classic union post. You care about why you exist but could care less about what the company needs to do to survive as long as you are treated well. The company profit is what creates job security, not the union contract. The contract isn't worth the paper its written on if there is no money to pay for it.

And without the workers ... there is no business.

Let me give you a lesson in leadership.

The (financial) goal of any business ... to produce profits. Financial Success however the leadership chooses to define it.

The goal of any worker: Personal Financial Success.

What has to be done in running your business ... is to achieve the Financial goals of the business ...

BY

Leading the Employees/Workers to achieving their Personal Financial goals.

Thats what SWA has done... thats what Microsoft has done.

But for the most part Fractionals and most airlines have tried to SCREW the pilots...

ala... LOW pay, Pay-For-Training, Training Contracts. Pressuring pilots to work while fatigued, violate Duty & Rest, overweight loads, etc..


Here is a CLUE:

If you don't care about MY personal Financial Success ... then I don't care about Yours.

When a company shows that they do care about the workers ... THEN

I LOVE YOU.

I respect YIPPILOT-- He has said he Flys because he likes to, not necessarily to get rich.

I respect him but I don't feel the same. I fly to to take care of my family. If i can't do that ... I'll find something else to do.

 

[pilotyip]

Gunguy, I have done pretty good taking care of my family and providing for a sound retirement plan and at the same time had a lot of fun flying neat airplanes, doing neat things at a lot of different places. You can have it both ways. I agree with your posting companies that are profitable like SWA, Micro, etc. should share with their employees, I see nothing wrong with that. If you working for a place that breaks regs, etc does not treat you correctly, you should not work there. Pilots’ leaving is the ultimate insult to management.

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

So, what HAVE you done lately with your union that has provided value to somebody other than yourself or the people your union represents? You are so pro-union pebbles, let me know what you bring to the table. Is there even a union that supports king air pilots? Or is it a union of one?

If you'll research my posts, you'll see I'm not so pro union as you would like to say. I would gladly work for non- union shops ( and I have) if the management took care of their own. However, I haven't seen one non- union shop yet that didn't or wouldn't hang their guys out to dry once the poop hit the fan.

Take Avantair for example, since you know and I know who you are. Frustrating part for you- you don't know who I am even tho you make comments that indicate that you think you know. I know for a fact and I've seen emails and heard phone messages from management pressuring pilots to fly overweight and do other illegal things. What do you think would happen if those same pilots would fall into a situation where they needed help? Would you help them? The answer is no. You would ask them to resign or they would be fired. That's your routine. That's why your pilots need a union. I don't think every company needs a union. Just the scumbag companies. You know full well that aviation companies have a history of screwing over the pilots even though they have the most stressfull positions with most of the responsibility.

Furthurmore, your elaborate stories of how you fly internationally, and all your bla,bla,bla is crap. You may fool some people but you're not fooling the people who know you. You're a liar, and you know it. A pathetic, sniveling little snake. Laughable.

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

Classic, classic, classic union post. You care about why you exist but could care less about what the company needs to do to survive as long as you are treated well. The company profit is what creates job security, not the union contract. The contract isn't worth the paper its written on if there is no money to pay for it.

That's actually true. That's why you should actually come up with a business model that makes money so you don't look stupid. Why ask a large group of professional pilots to fly for ******************** wages just because your business model sucks? Why would they do that? To help you out just because they're nice guys? Get real. They're all hoping to retire some day too with money in the bank.

By the way, how many airplanes do you guys have parked right now because you can't find pilots to fly them? I know that around 15- 20 pilots quit this year. Whew, that must hurt.

 

[dime line]

Gunguy, I have done pretty good taking care of my family and providing for a sound retirement plan and at the same time had a lot of fun flying neat airplanes, doing neat things at a lot of different places. You can have it both ways. I agree with your posting companies that are profitable like SWA, Micro, etc. should share with their employees, I see nothing wrong with that. If you working for a place that breaks regs, etc does not treat you correctly, you should not work there. Pilots’ leaving is the ultimate insult to management.

That is the problem with most, there is no insult, its just part of the business, and if a higher paid pilot leaves that is good, not an insult. You and I and everybody else on here are nothing more than a line on a P and L statement. your a number. you represent an expense to a shareholder.

 

[pilotyip]

Can't agree with you dime line, there is P&L portion of retaining pilots, you save in training costs, your crewmembers perform better on the job, crews take better care of equipment, burn less fuel and make the customer happier because you do a better job. These are all reasons to reduce turnover and the reason USA Jet has raised pay, made it easier to break guarantee, given more days off, gone to hard days off and raised pre-diem. In the long run it saves money and that is why the company made the move. It now paying dividends, in on-industry where crew shortages are impacting the bottom line, USA Jet is capable of recruiting and keeping turnover manageable without a training contract.

 

[dime line]

Can't agree with you dime line, there is P&L portion of retaining pilots, you save in training costs, your crewmembers perform better on the job, crews take better care of equipment, burn less fuel and make the customer happier because you do a better job. These are all reasons to reduce turnover and the reason USA Jet has raised pay, made it easier to break guarantee, given more days off, gone to hard days off and raised pre-diem. In the long run it saves money and that is why the company made the move. It now paying dividends, in on-industry where crew shortages are impacting the bottom line, USA Jet is capable of recruiting and keeping turnover manageable without a training contract.

Ok I agree with you, but I was thinking of FLOPS as I was typing

 

[texman]

Are you joking! I know old crusty airline guy's that can't even shoot a visual in to KASE. If you are retired and come to the fractionals, you will have your AS@@@ handed to you!

 

[transpac]

Are you joking! I know old crusty airline guy's that can't even shoot a visual in to KASE. If you are retired and come to the fractionals, you will have your AS@@@ handed to you!

It's not just ex-airline pilots that have problems the first couple of times into ASE! Anyone with a large turbojet background tends to avoid low power and high sink rates on final like the plague. Unfortunately, at ASE it's either high sink or a long landing.