the pro's and cons of unions in the fractional aviation and airline industry

[B19 Flyer]

B19, even I am amazed how good of story- teller you are. But lies are easier to fabricate than to tell the truth. They fall apart easier too.

So, what HAVE you done lately with your union that has provided value to somebody other than yourself or the people your union represents? You are so pro-union pebbles, let me know what you bring to the table. Is there even a union that supports king air pilots? Or is it a union of one?

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Yeah, I'm back. I need to work for a living Pat, when I'm out of the office I have limited time to be on the computer, especially when I'm overseas as I was this week. The time zones mess me up. I'm not going to give you a job title, but I will tell you that I've done everything in aviation from pump gas to work as a director. I've worked in customer service, OCC, safety, quality assurance and flight operations, most of it in management as I got older. What I do now though isn't as relevent as what I used to do that put me in the middle of all the union crap. As I've said before, that stuff is behind me now, but I still feel that there needs to be a voice that has experienced this stuff to educate those that have only experienced the good side of unions that that are bad sides as well. The problem is, that those airlines that run with what pilots consider bad management will usually last longer and hold more job security than carriers with good management that are restricted by a CBA. Do me a favor Pat? From now on in, drive only within the speed limit. Act as if you had a cop sitting beside you with a ticket book open with your name on it every where you go. No going over the speed limit by 5 mph anywhere. No 70 in a 55, no 35 in a 20 mph zone. Much of what I've written about is the lack of responsiveness that unions get when the financial scale tips in the wrong direction. But that simple example will let you know what it is like to have a union on the property. Everything that you do is micromanaged to the point of being unable to function. Scope clauses are a great example of that. So, to get back to the original statement Pat, what have you done in the industry to be able to speak from experience as to how your union has improved and added value to any individual outside of yourself and the specific represented group?

I'd say most pilots consider Southwest to have good Management and with a union on the property and a great business plan they've made $$$ 30 something years in a row. Most financially successful 121 carrier that I know of.

Your example of exceeding the speed limit is laughable. The first thought that came to mind was why not exceed duty times, or flight times, maybe fudge the weights, etc. Fly some hazmat! It's just another type of freight when it comes down to it!!!

Lousy example on your part. The reason those rules are micromanaged by unions are for safety purposes as well as the every companies policy of leaving a flight crew out to dry if anything goes wrong. Many of those rules are written in someone elses blood. Management just doesn't want to admit that.

Mr. I.

 

[pilotpat]

Well...since Mr I put the quote up I had to read his reply. As Mr I says its laughable. However, I happen to be that guy who drives 30MPH in a 30MPH zone. I don't give a rats behind who is on my tail. I actually DO the speed limit.

 

[dime line]

Well...since Mr I put the quote up I had to read his reply. As Mr I says its laughable. However, I happen to be that guy who drives 30MPH in a 30MPH zone. I don't give a rats behind who is on my tail. I actually DO the speed limit.

Great your the reason that there is a line of cars behind you and nobody in front of you. Your so responsible. Thanks a lot

 

[pilotpat]

Heh, heh...I do my best!

 

[Publishers]

The basic premise that gets lost in these discussions is that business does not exist to employ but to profit. A friend of mine the other day was extolling the benefits of an internet business that he started and one of hte really strong selling points was that it was a "passive" business. What he meant was that it did not have employees and as a consequnence required less management but still made money. The killer issue in union /managment or non union /managment is not so much the unionization but the environment that all this operates in today. Unions generally try to create a stable environment for their workforce with guaranteed pay and job security. Unfortunately the economy of the world does not always go along with the concept and hence the big problems.

 

[gunfyter]

Publishers,

I understand why a business exists....

But I care more about why I exist.

If you have a business that employs people... thats what You need to understand.

People (workers) don't exist for YOUR business.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I'd say most pilots consider Southwest to have good Management and with a union on the property and a great business plan they've made $$$ 30 something years in a row. Most financially successful 121 carrier that I know of.

Your example of exceeding the speed limit is laughable. The first thought that came to mind was why not exceed duty times, or flight times, maybe fudge the weights, etc. Fly some hazmat! It's just another type of freight when it comes down to it!!!

Lousy example on your part. The reason those rules are micromanaged by unions are for safety purposes as well as the every companies policy of leaving a flight crew out to dry if anything goes wrong. Many of those rules are written in someone elses blood. Management just doesn't want to admit that.

Mr. I.

First of all, the SWA deal was a ten year deal that was heavily based on profit sharing. SWA is heavily unionized but it works based on the profit sharing basis. Kelleher is now gone, as well as the old union leadership. Right now the flight attendents are bucking the traditional SWA contract and going for the I'll take all I can get theory rather than the traditional profit sharing method. The PWA is also in the early stages and all indications are that the new leadership is going the same way also. As a result, the only airline that has truly thrived through unions is about to go down the same road as the others. My observation wasn't to buck the rules, but when the contract is in place, the speed limit is enforced all the time. You want time off? It doesn't work within the agreement? You don't get it even though there are plenty of other pilots to cover. It works both ways. The speed limit isn't the regs, it's the contract. The real speed limit can't be reached. Perhaps a better example would have been to drive UNDER the speed limit by 10% MPH all the time, and be able to be ticketed for it even though it is within the posted limit.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Publishers,

I understand why a business exists....

But I care more about why I exist.

If you have a business that employs people... thats what You need to understand.

People (workers) don't exist for YOUR business.

Classic, classic, classic union post. You care about why you exist but could care less about what the company needs to do to survive as long as you are treated well. The company profit is what creates job security, not the union contract. The contract isn't worth the paper its written on if there is no money to pay for it.

 

[pilotyip]

Reality Check

B-19 I warned you before this is a pilot board, stop dealing in reality. Posts things like "If you are in a union you never have to worry about employment because it is guarenteed in a contract". Then you will be accepted, loved and prasied as being a true member of the brotherhood.