The problems with the Airline Industry

[Tim47SIP]

What are you talking about?

Draginbut,
I often wonder what changes a very once respectfull patriot like yourself to ignorant liberal name calling. A little common sense helps when looking at the big picture rather than your personal greed. As stated earlier, the economy was in the tank three quarters before Bush even took office and 911 certainly didn't help. With your proud background, I would have thought that you would have seen things for the good of the country, not your pocket book.
I still remember getting a letter from ALPA with a list of political candidates. They had names like Boxer, Fienstien, etc. They were all individuals that were supposedly pro labor. When I called the representative on the letter and asked about the candidates other political issues that were detrimental to the country (like continuing to cut military funding), the response was simply that there is no concern for other political issues other than the building of power for the unions. Sorry, but for me, the country comes first, i.e the rebuilding of our drastically reduced military.


B]FMR_RGNL_PLT[/B]
Bush and his CEO buddies are looking to break unions in the airline industry and elsewhere,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, why do u think they made it almost impossible for the airlines to be able to qualify for the post 9/11 loans? It was to give the airlines additional leverage to coerce consessions from the labor groups........

Both of you guys sound like a cult. You start ranting the same crap over and over. The crap you are throwing out certainly does not help your credibility. I am sure you are right, there was probably a meeting of the minds in the oval office that set up the loan process specifically designed to hinder the labor unions. Ya OK.

If you can remember back that far ( I know it is a long time), you should recall that the loans were based on the solvency of the individual airlines. They had to be able to survive before the funds were provided. This required a thourough financial plan that some airlines could not provide. It was not designed to break Unions. That is protecting our tax dollars. There was no mandate from congress to demand concessionary agreements with the Unions. It was purely economical.

P.S. have a nice day, both of you.

 

[enigma]

Tim.

Ditto

regards,
enigma

 

[Publishers]

people

There are a bunch of people who attibute success or failure and all kinds of power to the president. Frankly, I do not think that the president gives much of a care about most of this. Secondly, you highly over rate his ability to control things like our economy or business playing field.

This is the same group that thinks management sits around all day in conversations and planning on how to screw the labor groups. Having been involved with airlines for many years, somehow I managed to miss all those in depth conversations. Like every thing else, management attempts to get the best deal economically they can. Same thing with Union Management. For the most part, all the rhetoric is bull.

As to the contradiction in my example, you are right. On the one hand, it is the management that came before that often makes the difference. That said, timing can mean everything as well. Herb did not predict Spetember 11th or a failing economy. His company was in good position to take advantage of the situation so he gets points for management accountability. In many other cases however, the current management did not create the problem, they were brought in to solve it. These uncontrolled events often place them in impossible positions.

 

[rtaank]

Order in which things affect an airline


1.yeild(directly connected to ATF prices)
2.over capacity
3.poor mgmt.
4.unions(not really)

 

[VADriver]

Draginass,

And yes, the unions need to take their shame of the blame as well. For example, remember the "Summer of Love" when United passengers were stranded everywhere? Who did - or should - the passengers blame for being stuck and having vacations ruined?

46Driver,

Did U ALPA tell UAL to fix their staffing and not count on pilots picking up over time?

Is that kind of staffing model sound management...counting on individual pilots to fly extra. Gee..piss them off and still expect them to fly extra.

Then managmeent and the media spin to make it all labors fault...

 

[Boeingman]

Order in which things affect an airline


1.yeild(directly connected to ATF prices)
2.over capacity
3.poor mgmt.
4.unions(not really)

You forgot #5. Mgmts. corporate vision extending only as far as lining their pockets with the next quarterly bonus checks.

 

[46Driver]

46Driver,

Did U ALPA tell UAL to fix their staffing and not count on pilots picking up over time?

Is that kind of staffing model sound management...counting on individual pilots to fly extra. Gee..piss them off and still expect them to fly extra.

Then managmeent and the media spin to make it all labors fault...

And gee....piss the passengers off and still expect them to fly your company? The airlines are a service industry......

Regardless of who you blame, the entire company lost when the passengers had had enough. Then you can blame ALPA for not doing enough public relations in the media to counter management's spin. How would you describe it to the customers, especially when on time dropped to what, less than 50%?

 

[VADriver]

And gee....piss the passengers off and still expect them to fly your company? The airlines are a service industry......

Regardless of who you blame, the entire company lost when the passengers had had enough. Then you can blame ALPA for not doing enough public relations in the media to counter management's spin. How would you describe it to the customers, especially when on time dropped to what, less than 50%?

Tough Love? How long to take it on your back before you are willing to sacrifice a few to make a point.

It is the pilots responsibility to fly the airplane safely. It's managements repsonsibility to make customers happy. If pilots want to make customers happy then don't write anything up and keep on flying....although there is that safety thing....

Yup the entire compnay did lose, but who is repsonsibile? You can't be serious if you think it is the pilots...

 

[46Driver]

I disagree. It is a service industry and is the responsibility of every employee to make the customer happy.

Now when the articles appeared (and I was reading them after a google search) that the United pilots flew the least amount of hours and in return received a 28% raise to be the highest in the industry, how do you answer that? On top of that, there was the quote from Dubinsky, "We are not going to kill the golden goose but we are going to strangle it until it gives us every last egg."

How do you answer the media when presented with the above statements that appeared in various newspapers? How do you answer the customers who wonder why UAL's on time dropped to less than 50%? Why would a customer want to fly your airline again?

 

[VADriver]

I disagree. It is a service industry and is the responsibility of every employee to make the customer happy.

Do you think that managment would ever use your attitude and dedication to customer service against you and your employee group?

 

[FMR_RGNL_PLT]

I just read the post about the UAL guys getting a big raise and doing less flying some time ago..........

It sounds like some of you blame unions for negotiating the best contracts they can, and thus it's the fault of unions that the industry is in the shape its in.

Back to industial/labor relations 101, unions try to obtain the best deal for their people, and management tries to pay as little as possible to its employees for the services they provide.

Now if management agrees to a contract which it knows it can't afford it is MANAGEMENTS fault!

Its pretty much common sense, when business is good and companies are growing and making money, and unemployment is low, labor is going to have an advantage in negotiations, when unemployment is up and companies are losing money labor is going to feel the heat to make concessions, etc.

Now in response to some earlier comments about my previous post,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Corporations and big business are a crucial part of our American system, but people have to remember businesses exist to make money: not to help their employees, not to be fair, not to be concerned about the environment, and not to be concerned about social justice..........

That is why, in a civilized society, you need unions and government regulations to serve as checks and balances to corportate power.

 

[Dizel8]

I'll agree with that post. Unions wants a Million, companies wants to pay a dollar. That is just how the cookie crumbles.

But what to do, when factors change. The UAL raise was essentially a bribe to allow the merger with U, secondly, it was also a raise long in the coming. But conditions changed rather badly. Unions would be mostly unwilling to give up hard fought raises, while the company needs to lower cost, this due to the fact, thatv very few companies, when things are going exceedingly well, will open contracts or award employees more money.

Contracts are written and agreed to, based on assumptions which may or may not hold true in the future, ie earnings, profits. It would be beneficial to both the company and the employees, if there were provisions, that would benefit both, in case thing worked out better or worse than anticipated, ie profitsharing.

 

[Publishers]

hit on the head

You hit it on the head.

Fronm both a capital and labor perspective, decisions are made at the time that they are made using the best guess formula. The aircraft that you buy is estimated to fly for you for some 30 years, so if you make a bad decision, it is going to stay with you for some time forward. Same with labor agreements.

Unfortunately unions (and Lessors as well) tend to not want to renegotiate the deal based on what is happening now.

Frankly if unions were any good at all, they would look independantly at the situation, walk in to the companies and sya let us make a change to our contract.

As it is, they wait til the company proves it is in distress. Sort of a stupid concept if you think about it. Let's wait til our healthy patient is on the death bed rather than fix him when we see the first sign trouble is coming. Let's wait til the dike breaks rather than fix that little leak.

Air Tran is an example of what you can do proactive rather than waiting for the other foot to drop.

 

[FMR_RGNL_PLT]

I think if management would be willing to come to unions when things are going great and say, " hey your doing such a good job you deserve more pay", then unions would be far more willing to accept concessions.

Concessions should be linked to company performance, once company performance turns around concessions should start to be reversed.

Its a 2 way street

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

Hmmm...

Ive been both non union as well as union and a former member of ALPA..I am currently a member of SWAPA..

IMHO the factors that have led to the current situation in the industry are endless..I dont think you can blame 911 or the current administration..

To be very honest the industry was well on its way to tanking well prior to 911...

The two biggest and obvious factors were the down turn in business travel due to a weak economy and the advent of the internet...Things that only a travel agent could do for you just a short while ago can now be done from any wireless device or laptop..And the high priced business ticket was something the companies just werent going to pay for anymore..

In addition to these factors were several unions pushing for and getting large pay increases at a time when the airlines couldnt afford the costs of a strike
..When faced with a strike possibility and a pay package that they couldnt afford they took the cheapest way out knowing full well that they couldnt afford it and would get consessions later on..

The end result was operating costs at an all time high while income was being greatly reduced..

This was a no brainer..Not enough cash or income to cover the bills..This was happening at a time when airlines were spending money like theres no economic tomorrow..

Remember the USAIR UAL deal..?

How many millions or even billions did that no starter cost both companies at a time when both were bleeding money...

Remember the STAR Aliance?How much did that cost?

Or how about UALs attempt at starting a business charter airline..Avolar i think it was..Several hundread million later..Poof!!All gone..

The list of economic missteps over the last several years or even decade is very long and the record is very clear..

There were and still are people running airlines that have no clue as to how...

There are still unions pricing themselves out of jobs and then want to blame everyone else for their short sighted approach to labor relations..
This while proclaiming to the world that they entend to get every last golden egg all the while ignoring the health of the goose..

Well..Ladies and gentleman..

I think that both parties are standing over a goose that has nearly gasped its last breath and are still arguing over whos job it is to save it..
Whats the point?If both partys dont pitch in and try to save the goose then KNOWBODY will get ANY MORE eggs..

In short..IMHO the biggest reason for the current condition of the industry is the long history of poor labor/managment practices that have resulted in hostile/failed relationships between labor and managment..

And as they say..The rest is now history..

Speaking of history..
Some years ago i spent a long time at the Boeing Company..In the lobby of the training center they have a display case..
In this case are the wings and cap badges of every airline that Boeing has ever sold a plane to..

The sad part is that over 90 +% of those airlines are no longer around..

And im sure that every single one of them thought they had it all figured out ...


Mike