The myth about USAIR East growth

[Thebadcat1313]

Here's an idea to solve the growth problem....

Neither side is growing... From 2000-2005 the east had many pilots retire and zero upgrades. The west had a certain amount of upgrades due to attrition, but more due to growth. Take the avg amount of upgrades the West had due to attrition, compare that to the amount of upgrades the East had during the same period due to attrition. Using this formula, determine who then should upgrade due to attrition.

Dude, I would love to have a big fatty of that stuff you're smokin'!

The attrition that the east had from 2000 to 2005 could'nt be less relevant to us on the west. Just like those on the east could'nt care less about what our attrition was during the same period. Going forward, we had solid aircraft deliveries AND attrition in our favor. All that came to a screeching halt 3 years ago. Oh, our attrition continued, over 150 since then with only 40 upgrades. The flying has migrated east to the extent allowed by the TA, because it's cheaper to do it out there. Now that attrition has really slowed down because of age 65, it's obvious that almost all attrition-based benefits at the airline have benefitted those on the east in the last three years.

 

[Airline Driver]

I agree. While it's natural to take pride in the success of one's employer it's false pride to claim their decisions are yours.No, you may not remind us of this. Parker applied spin to placate the Easties. Even Nicolau recognized this. In Spring, 2005, AWA was a solvent carrier. For Parker to say over a year later that at some unspecified time down the road AWA could've been facing bankruptcy is irrelevent.We all deserve to be A380 captains but that's irrelevent. This isn't about deserving it's about that fact that the merger has changed the career expectations of both sides. AWA before merger: hiring and expanding. USAirways before merger: shrinking and furloughing. These are the facts that most influenced Nicolau. If he felt the fact that Easties' longevity was more important than their seniority he would've rule based on that. There was zero vindictiveness in Nicolau's ruling and he's not stupid or senile.

I agree with you in regards to being an A380 Captain, MMMM, but that is about all. I wish the industry were like it was before deregulation but we can't always get what we want or hope for.

Yes I certainly will remind you about your financial position. Both Airlines were in tough shape financially. That is a fact. What I find dumbfounding is you actually think that just because you guys were hiring and Us air was furloughing that you deserve to be at the top of the seniority list.

It does not matter who is Hiring or furloughing. A Pilot should not be punished for Management's miss running of the company. We fly airplanes not run the company. It's not the fault of the pilot group It's managements lack of direction. Us Air have had some pretty bad CEO's as of late.

Nicolau was paid off like, all the rest of the arbitrators are. Completely unfair in his decision. Both sides needed to give a little. Mergers are never easy, I was involved with one my self. A Pilot who was at an airline before you were born and now under you in seniority is WONG!!! Plain and simple.

It's really too bad that things got the way they did. I would not be surprised if one of the sides, east or west, is not sold off as it's own entity because it is just not going to work with the current ruling.

 

[vetrider]

A Pilot who was at an airline before you were born and now under you in seniority is WONG!!! Plain and simple.

No worries, that didn't happen anywhere in the Nic.

 

[TWA Dude]

Nicolau was paid off like, all the rest of the arbitrators are.

And there you have it. I'd written several paragraphs trying to counterpoint you but when I read this I realized I wasn't dealing with a rational person so I deleted them. It's all a conspiracy, is it? The whole world just loved AWA so much it conspired to screw the AAA pilots. Ri-ight. Perhaps Nicolau was on that grassy knoll in Dallas back in 1963 as well?

 

[joevollers]

Dude, I would love to have a big fatty of that stuff you're smokin'!

The attrition that the east had from 2000 to 2005 could'nt be less relevant to us on the west. Just like those on the east could'nt care less about what our attrition was during the same period. Going forward, we had solid aircraft deliveries AND attrition in our favor. All that came to a screeching halt 3 years ago. Oh, our attrition continued, over 150 since then with only 40 upgrades. The flying has migrated east to the extent allowed by the TA, because it's cheaper to do it out there. Now that attrition has really slowed down because of age 65, it's obvious that almost all attrition-based benefits at the airline have benefitted those on the east in the last three years.

Reread my post b/c I believe you misunderstood the argument.... you can have all of the attrition in the world, but if no on upgrades due to it, then it's meaningless SEE: AAA 2000-2005

 

[Flybywire44]

Does US Air not have firm A/C orders and did it not spend 5.8 million on aircraft orders?

 

[PositiveRate]

Nicolau was paid off like, all the rest of the arbitrators are. Completely unfair in his decision. Both sides needed to give a little. Mergers are never easy, I was involved with one my self. A Pilot who was at an airline before you were born and now under you in seniority is WONG!!! Plain and simple.

Do you expect to be taken seriously while writing drivil like the above quote?

Nic paid off? Umm, no. Interesting conspiricy, though.

Completely unfair? Your opinion - most likely biased.

Mergers never easy - correct

Pilot at company before another pilot born? Not wrong at all - the reason there is no DOH in merger policy is to prevent gross inequities when airlines with large longevity disparities combine. The pilot who was at a company since way back when was also about to be unemployed, and was also at the very bottom of his own seniority list. You imply that it should be policy for him to leapfrog up to a more secure place - that my friend is what is plain WRONG.

 

[Thebadcat1313]

I agree with you in regards to being an A380 Captain, MMMM, but that is about all. I wish the industry were like it was before deregulation but we can't always get what we want or hope for.

Yes I certainly will remind you about your financial position. Both Airlines were in tough shape financially. That is a fact. What I find dumbfounding is you actually think that just because you guys were hiring and Us air was furloughing that you deserve to be at the top of the seniority list.

It does not matter who is Hiring or furloughing. A Pilot should not be punished for Management's miss running of the company. We fly airplanes not run the company. It's not the fault of the pilot group It's managements lack of direction. Us Air have had some pretty bad CEO's as of late.

Nicolau was paid off like, all the rest of the arbitrators are. Completely unfair in his decision. Both sides needed to give a little. Mergers are never easy, I was involved with one my self. A Pilot who was at an airline before you were born and now under you in seniority is WONG!!! Plain and simple.

It's really too bad that things got the way they did. I would not be surprised if one of the sides, east or west, is not sold off as it's own entity because it is just not going to work with the current ruling.

Do you honestly believe that there are pilots at AWA who are senior to those who were hired before they were born? You need to do a little research. I don't know of anyone here at AWA that's not at least in their 30's, and that puts their birth date back in the mid-late 70's. None of them are senior to US pilots with mid to late 1970's hire dates. As a 2004 AWA hire, I have about 70 US guys (non-furloughed) below me and they were hired, I believe in 1987 when I was 20 years old and had most of my ratings. I know that probably does'nt make you feel any better, but it's a far cry from "not being born yet" when you were hired.

 

[reepicheep]

There are probably Southwest captains who were in grade school at my original '88 usair hire date but so what? If we merge with them is he/she gonna yank gear for me because it's "wrong?" Get over it.

Btw, if you sat on your butt at usair all those years and didn't try to get a real job, you gotta wonder, what were you waiting for? Oh I forget, an airline to merge with so you could try to steal someone else's seat.

 

[Airline Driver]

Do you expect to be taken seriously while writing drivil like the above quote?

Nic paid off? Umm, no. Interesting conspiricy, though.

Completely unfair? Your opinion - most likely biased.

Mergers never easy - correct

Pilot at company before another pilot born? Not wrong at all - the reason there is no DOH in merger policy is to prevent gross inequities when airlines with large longevity disparities combine. The pilot who was at a company since way back when was also about to be unemployed, and was also at the very bottom of his own seniority list. You imply that it should be policy for him to leapfrog up to a more secure place - that my friend is what is plain WRONG.

You Must be a, what is you guys call each other, Easties and Westies, You must be a Westie. I could give a rat crap whether I am taken serious or not. I just sit back and laugh and through a little fuel on the fire from time to time. I just love reading the reactions out of 1/2 the idiots on these boards.

No I do not think Nic was paid off, it was a figure of speech. I guess I should have made it less black and white because people on this board can't read between the lines. The award was unfair, I will stick to that statement. West guys think otherwise. Everyone has a right to their opinion. If yours is different than mine who cares. I am here for my entertainment only, and If I Pi$$ a few people off from time to time then all the more reason for me to laugh.

The Day I take anything on this board seriously is the day my $hit turns purple and smells like a rainbow sherbet.

 

[Airline Driver]

Do you honestly believe that there are pilots at AWA who are senior to those who were hired before they were born? You need to do a little research. I don't know of anyone here at AWA that's not at least in their 30's, and that puts their birth date back in the mid-late 70's. None of them are senior to US pilots with mid to late 1970's hire dates. As a 2004 AWA hire, I have about 70 US guys (non-furloughed) below me and they were hired, I believe in 1987 when I was 20 years old and had most of my ratings. I know that probably does'nt make you feel any better, but it's a far cry from "not being born yet" when you were hired.

And you are one of the people who can't read between the lines. What I do honestly believe is that I am purely entertained by the nonsense that is spewed out on these boards that I am more than happy to contribute to.

What I believe does not matter, the fact that I am laughing hysterically does. Keep up the good work.

 

[Airline Driver]

And there you have it. I'd written several paragraphs trying to counterpoint you but when I read this I realized I wasn't dealing with a rational person so I deleted them. It's all a conspiracy, is it? The whole world just loved AWA so much it conspired to screw the AAA pilots. Ri-ight. Perhaps Nicolau was on that grassy knoll in Dallas back in 1963 as well?

I have been told that I have a warped sense of humor. Not Rational you say, I will agree with you there. I could care less whether you think I am rational or not. As I have already stated I am here purely of my entertainment. The thing I get a kick out of is people make mountains out of mole hills and that really entertains me.

People need to get their diapers changed and lighten up. The Whole airline industry is conspiracy and you are at the top of the food chain!!! Come on now have a little laugh once in a while or is that too hard for you to do??

 

[TWA Dude]

Great, another troll reveals himself. Next...

 

[DustyBottoms]

Curious...

I was wondering if anyone had any of these numbers handy, or steer me in the right direction to find them... Thanks!

US East:
Aircraft at date of merger?
Pilots at date of merger?
Pilots retired since merger?
Pilots hired since merger?
Upgrades since merger?
Pilots now?
Aircraft now?

US West (AWA): (same questions)
Aircraft at date of merger?
Pilots at date of merger?
Pilots retired since merger?
Pilots hired since merger?
Upgrades Since merger?
Pilots now?
Aircraft now?

 

[flygirlqt]

Serious question. Regardless of the positions from East vs. West, how do all of you feel about the long term survival of the company sans this integration?

We flew full fare last month on what I would assume was with old U employees and aircraft. It was one of the worst travel experiences I have ever experienced or witnessed

The airplanes were filthy, the agents crass, the in flight crew couldn't have cared less and were down right rude to people on 4 different legs. In addition 3 out of 4 flights were more than 1.5 hours late due to maintenance resulting in our mis connecting both ways.

Granted the U employees have been through a lot, airplanes do break but I couldn't help wondering how U gets repeat business.