The long, dark walk on the airline conveyer belt

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This will absolutely have to come from the FAA. The only thing ALPA could do is pressure / lobby the FAA and Congress for these changes.

Maybe we are the ones who need to start pressuring ALPA to pressure the FAA.

On track.... now the tough part..... How do we pressure ALPA to get this going? The trick is ALPA has to convince the legislatures, the FAA and airline management that this is in everyones interests. Or at least everyone gets something out of it....

But we don't really pressure ALPA, we empower them.....

ALPA-PAC. Everybody in Wash DC has thier money in someones pocket. We should too. You support those who support your issues.

The avg participation rate is 30% at the major level. When you look at just the regionals thier avg. ALPA-PAC participation rate is embarrassing low..single digits.

If you don't understand the difference between your dues money and giving money to ALPA-PAC, then it is time to get informed and accept how it is...

Look at the structure of the Merchant Marine, use that structure in our industry.

There are lessons to be learned with the maritime industry. There are no US registered ships to move goods. And the saliors and officers that operate these ships are from third world countries. Wiliam Langweische (yes, the authors son) did a great piece on the unregulated maritime industry. Basically, no body cares becuase as long as thier "stuff makes it to port" who cares how it arrives.

Potential for the Air Line Industry and pilots? You bet.

Get informed, get involved. Choose our future or someone else will.

 

[pilotyip]

When you work it out so pilots are paid more by regulation, the cost of an airline ticket will go up, ridership will go down. Pilot’s jobs will disappear and the military pilot will again have the first shot at the remaining jobs, just like the 70's

 

[No Delay]

When you work it out so pilots are paid more by regulation, the cost of an airline ticket will go up, ridership will go down. Pilot’s jobs will disappear and the military pilot will again have the first shot at the remaining jobs, just like the 70's

Yeah, but look at what is happening now....

Ticket prices are low, pilot pay is at an all time low...and pilot job are disappearing faster than we can conprehend.

 

[pilotyip]

There are more jobs being created than are disappearing. There is shortage of pilots, tons of hiring going on, maybe not the jobs most would like, but our pilots are having no problems finding jobs. ATI, Atlas, Kalitta, Gemni, Air Willy, Flex Jet, Jet blue.

 

[Mr. Jet 2005]

someone call? There is a Jet Blue pilot in another thread commenting about his lack of a dgree and his success as a military and Jet Blue pilot. I am not making any claims here about the degree or non-degree just bringing everyone up to date on real world of success in a flying career. This is still a great career where else can a high school grad make $100K/yr by his mid-30's with 12-14 days off per month.

Only if that makes it great for somebody, should we all as a whole have the bar lowered because we spent time and invested in ourselves for an education? Or Does the fact we got that 4 year degree mean nothing at all in this industry. It got us started making $20k, but so what. Where do we go now?

How often do you see doctors / attorneys / teachers going to "0 hours - airline job in 3 months!!!" schools?

Thier industry illiminated this type of candidate by raising the bar on what really counts to get hired.

 

[viper548]

There are more jobs being created than are disappearing. There is shortage of pilots, tons of hiring going on, maybe not the jobs most would like, but our pilots are having no problems finding jobs. ATI, Atlas, Kalitta, Gemni, Air Willy, Flex Jet, Jet blue.

Kit, is that you?

 

[pilotyip]

No but Kit is in tune also, he knows what is going on in the market,. He is a believer in the 2007 hiring boom

 

[No Delay]

Kit, is that you? - viper548

funny!

 

[pilotyip]

Actually over on the "I got the call from Jet Blue" thread there is a post that says he got the job becasue of going to the job fair and recommends it as the way to get Jet Blue's attenetion.

 

[DrewBlows]

Quit blaming low time new hires. They didn't negotiate the contract. You did! If you don't want pilots with less than 500, (1000, 1500?) hours working at your company, negotiate it in your next contract. I don't think it will help, but if that's what is important to you bring it up with your negotiating commitee. You could even do one better and volunteer to help your union out, or at least go to a meeting.

The reality is that there is little you can do to tell a flight instructor that a pay raise to fly an RJ is a bad deal, but once they are hired you can educate them. You may have to start by educating yourself. The industry today is really no different than it was in it's infancy. I believe that the solution is the same as it was then. Pilots must stick together (read, strong union), support one another and support pro-union candidates.

Don't believe me? Read Flying The Line Vols 1 & 2 before replying. I've heard that Hard Landings is good as well, but haven't read it.

Remember you can only control the things that you can control. I wouldn't count on management or the FAA for anything, but I would and do count on my fellow pilots.

 

[No Delay]

DrewBlows...that was a retarded post! However, I do agree we should support our union!

The topic was about improving the industry as a whole...not one airline in particular. The problem is that your airline could negoiate the best contract in the industry...then either your flying will slowly be shifted to another carrier or your airline will be uncompetitive and start losing money.

We need a solution that will improve the entire industry!

 

[DrewBlows]

We need a solution that will improve the entire industry!

Think grass roots. If every pilot group held out for better contracts come negotiating time the industry would improve wouldn't it (at least for the pilots, but that's all we can control anyway)? Would some guys be out of work? Maybe. Would some companies fold? Maybe. I don't have a lot of time in this industry but I do know one thing, when I can't get a job that's worth having I will walk away. If you can't walk away, don't expect much. If I were on the top of the seniority list would I feel this way? I hope so, but I'm not in that position so I don't know. What I do know is that there are/were a lot of pilots who sacrificed their careers for the good of the profession. Sucks for them, good for us. But I feel an obligation to them to uphold the integrity of the profession. Maybe I'm too idealistic, but that's how I feel.

 

[pilotyip]

Change?

"Think grass roots. If every pilot group held out for better contracts come negotiating time the industry would improve wouldn't it"...................................................... Isn't that what all the ALPA union airlines did in the past to allow the LCC's to thrive?But I do agree that if enough guys walk away from the career in sufficient numbers, conditions will change, but then again the airlines might just redefine competitive minimums.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

PilotYip might be right. There might be an 07-08 hiring boom. My question is, to what end?

Are there really jobs worth fighting for?

This is not, after all, the airline industry that we all grew up with. The days of the airline pilot being able to buy a new car every week (1970s) are gone. Inflation simply has not kept up with airline pilot compensation.

The airline pilot is no longer the respected professional he once was. Now, airline crews are forced to remove their shoes at security, have their breath sniffed by TSA. We even foster our own "dumbing down" by the way that we dress and act. We no longer command respect, so it isn't offered (see the backpack thread).

The retirement is no longer there. The major airline pension was a huge benefit. For most people that was the crown jewel of the major airline career. You knew that when you retired, you would do so comfortably. That is no longer the case. Now you must plan for your own retirement, in some cases with no company sponsered contribution.

Major airline contracts are not what they once were. The compensation, the rigs, the lifestyle have all been decimated.

So there will be a hiring boom in 2007. Maybe, maybe not. (With the proliferation of Ejets at the regionals I have my doubts) Even if there were, the question is -- is it really worth the effort to try and get hired at one of these airlines again?

What makes a pilot WANT to work for an airline anymore???

I dont see the draw.

 

[pilotyip]

Check my signature line

But it is still a great career for those who like to fly airplanes. $100K/yr for a high grad is still achievable.

 

[Mr. Jet 2005]

But it is still a great career for those who like to fly airplanes. $100K/yr for a high grad is still achievable.

Once again, I fail to see how us lowering the bar to people who chose not to go and receive a college education should be rewarded by being paid the same wages as those who did invest in themsevles for a college degree. In other fields, take the computer industry, higher paid jobs only come around by having higher experiance, thus raising the bar for those who choose to invest in education.

I like to fly airplanes, but I also like to watch TV. Since when did it become normal to do have a job only because we like it so much, and then be willing to do it for nothing? I guess once they start paying people to watch TV $20k a year, I'll understand.

 

[pilotyip]

Yes in the computer industry you learn in college to become a computer whatever it is. Then companies wanting to hire computer whatever’s go to the college to recruit those college graduates. Flying an airplane is not a skill that is developed in the classroom; it is a hands-on skill development. Even the college flying programs do not prepare a pilot for an entry-level job, except maybe CFI. The college grad has to go out and built time. When the college graduate starts building time he is four years behind the HS grad. The college grad may know more about Greek Literature but his pilots are indistinguishable from the HS grads and that is why 172 out of 177 airlines hiring do not make the degree a show stopper. Remember some of finest pilots ever to take to the skies were 19-yr. old kids with 300 hr total time. They flew their B-17 and B-24 in tight formation for 12 hours at a time into the Germans skies. They did not have college degrees. I don’t see how this had anything to do with lowering the bar.

 

[Herman Bloom]

Absolutely true, pilotyip; but can you deny that making a degree mandatory for pilots -- while it would certainly do nothing to improve the quality of the applicant pool -- would shrink the available supply of "qualified" crewmembers?

Mandatory degree = barrier to entry = fewer entries = possibly higher salaries.

 

[pilotyip]

I hire pilots, why would I eliminate a qualified pilot just because he does not have a four-year degree. Do I turn my back on Gulf War Army vets; W-2 is who do not have degrees? Alternatively, ex-Zantop pilots with 12K hours in turbine equipment? SWA, JB, Air Tran do not the absence of a degree stand in the way of hiring the right guy. In addition, the college dergee requirement would not shrink the pool of applicants because almost everyone has a degree. You might take out 5% of the pilot applicants that would not effect the supply of pilots enough to see any difference.

 

[FlyingMan2005]

Just curious, does anyone feel any different about this industry after the Mesaba, Comair BK notices? When is enough?