The long, dark walk on the airline conveyer belt

[Lebowski]

Oh jeez.

Now you went and done it. Pilotyip will be along shortly to give us his spiel on how being a pilot has nothing to do with being educated.

Uh oh. Am I gonna "get schooled" about how we don't need no stinkin' school?

Oh well. Bring it on, FlightInfo Ho's. I expect most pilots without a degree to flame me and tell me that a degree is not required to be a pilot. That's clearly true, which is part of my point: It's not a requirement--but if it were, and if we had an over-arching professional standards group, like the AMA or ABA, it obviously would be harder for people to become pilots, which means there would be fewer of us available, which means we would be getting paid more and treated better.

That's a big part of what the AMA and ABA do--they keep the bar high so salaries stay high. I bet a lot of people could do surgery or make good legal arguments without having a degree or going to med school or law school. But the AMA and ABA ensure that only the people who have an education and then some can become doctors and lawyers. And that keeps salaries high.

It's hard to argue with all the statistics that link higher education to higher income. Yeah, I know there are the exceptions like Bill Gates and other college dropouts who made it big.

I'm not knocking people who don't have degrees. And no, I don't think having a degree necessarily makes you smarter or a better pilot. But can someone tell me how it would hurt our profession to have some higher standards for entry?

I'm strictly talking about how education relates to our profession and why our career seems to be on the downward slide, particularly in relation to other careers that demand a higher education. Why should we as pilots expect anything different if we don't demand a higher standard for ourselves and our peers?

Okay...school me. : )

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Everything is relative.

I never thought the in residency doctor who is awake for 36 hours was very professional. A complex issue, but the senior doctors don't care because they had to do it... so much for policing your own and your industry.

Also, doctors are leaving communities and thier profession due to mal practice. It is all about the dollar

 

[av8er2]

Good post.

Because this industry is so messed up I spend all my free time figuring out how to get out. The one good thing I have learned is I am tired of the airline industry and as a matter of fact everything else deciding where my life goes. I am working hard to start my own business and be my own boss. That way if things get messed up it is my fault.

The industry is going to see a lot of people get the heck out. Everyone I fly with is sick of this stuff and often they are looking to do something else.

Going on an making a decent paycheck with even just a little job security is enjoyed by only a few (Southwest, Ups, Fedex). The odds of getting hired there are not that great and I don't want to be an older guy finally realizing I am too old to go there and I am stuck at a regional that barely pays enough to raise a family.

This industry has a lot of problems that will never be fixed. I have realized that and I am one good qualified captain that is going to move on so a low time inexperienced captain can take my place.

What I see coming is people will ask at the counter what the experience level is of the crew of regional flight. It is going down hill so fast I think the safetly level is next.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Uh oh. Am I gonna "get schooled" about how we don't need no stinkin' school?

Oh well. Bring it on, FlightInfo Ho's. I expect most pilots without a degree to flame me and tell me that a degree is not required to be a pilot. That's clearly true, which is part of my point: It's not a requirement--but if it were, and if we had an over-arching professional standards group, like the AMA or ABA, it obviously would be harder for people to become pilots, which means there would be fewer of us available, which means we would be getting paid more and treated better.

That's a big part of what the AMA and ABA do--they keep the bar high so salaries stay high. I bet a lot of people could do surgery or make good legal arguments without having a degree or going to med school or law school. But the AMA and ABA ensure that only the people who have an education and then some can become doctors and lawyers. And that keeps salaries high.

It's hard to argue with all the statistics that link higher education to higher income. Yeah, I know there are the exceptions like Bill Gates and other college dropouts who made it big.

I'm not knocking people who don't have degrees. And no, I don't think having a degree necessarily makes you smarter or a better pilot. But can someone tell me how it would hurt our profession to have some higher standards for entry?

I'm strictly talking about how education relates to our profession and why our career seems to be on the downward slide, particularly in relation to other careers that demand a higher education. Why should we as pilots expect anything different if we don't demand a higher standard for ourselves and our peers?

Okay...school me. : )

I agree with you.

 

[pilotyip]

someone call? There is a Jet Blue pilot in another thread commenting about his lack of a dgree and his success as a military and Jet Blue pilot. I am not making any claims here about the degree or non-degree just bringing everyone up to date on real world of success in a flying career. This is still a great career where else can a high school grad make $100K/yr by his mid-30's with 12-14 days off per month.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I am not suggesting that this would even be a good idea, but just for one moment SPECULATE on the effect on the industry if ALPA set a minimum of 1500 hours and an ATP to be an ALPA pilot.

Just consider.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am not suggesting that this would even be a good idea, but just for one moment SPECULATE on the effect on the industry if ALPA set a minimum of 1500 hours and an ATP to be an ALPA pilot.

Just consider.

Crazy stuff.... that isn't going to prevent others from getting hired. Divide and conquer, whipsaw will be managments greatest delight...

All pilots who don't fit the bill will be called scabs......

nasty....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am working hard to start my own business and be my own boss. That way if things get messed up it is my fault.

Good call. The only way to make it in this country is ownership. Ownership in stock, real estate and a business.

Just don't compete with Wal Mart....

 

[No Delay]

Couple of things to add...

WillowRunVortex was making a good point...

I am sure there are many people out there who can figure out what is wrong with you and give you the approiate medicine (moms do it all the time). What I am saying, is that with a little on the job training...we could do a doctors job. They have the high education because the AMA requires it.

We do need higher standards for commercial / atp certificates and the airlines should be restricted on hiring low time pilots. This will absolutely have to come from the FAA. The only thing ALPA could do is pressure / lobby the FAA and Congress for these changes.

Maybe we are the ones who need to start pressuring ALPA to pressure the FAA.

 

[chromeshawn]

Solution simple to understand, hard to impliment.

Look at the structure of the Merchant Marine, use that structure in our industry.

That union structure would eliminate most of the major problems that we encounter today. (mergers & seniority integration, pay rates, work rules, unified contracts....)

If you're too lazy to research, you'll never know. Once you do, you will not question.

Jedi mind trick.... ...but the structure seems much better to me.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This will absolutely have to come from the FAA. The only thing ALPA could do is pressure / lobby the FAA and Congress for these changes.

Maybe we are the ones who need to start pressuring ALPA to pressure the FAA.

On track.... now the tough part..... How do we pressure ALPA to get this going? The trick is ALPA has to convince the legislatures, the FAA and airline management that this is in everyones interests. Or at least everyone gets something out of it....

But we don't really pressure ALPA, we empower them.....

ALPA-PAC. Everybody in Wash DC has thier money in someones pocket. We should too. You support those who support your issues.

The avg participation rate is 30% at the major level. When you look at just the regionals thier avg. ALPA-PAC participation rate is embarrassing low..single digits.

If you don't understand the difference between your dues money and giving money to ALPA-PAC, then it is time to get informed and accept how it is...

Look at the structure of the Merchant Marine, use that structure in our industry.

There are lessons to be learned with the maritime industry. There are no US registered ships to move goods. And the saliors and officers that operate these ships are from third world countries. Wiliam Langweische (yes, the authors son) did a great piece on the unregulated maritime industry. Basically, no body cares becuase as long as thier "stuff makes it to port" who cares how it arrives.

Potential for the Air Line Industry and pilots? You bet.

Get informed, get involved. Choose our future or someone else will.

 

[pilotyip]

When you work it out so pilots are paid more by regulation, the cost of an airline ticket will go up, ridership will go down. Pilot’s jobs will disappear and the military pilot will again have the first shot at the remaining jobs, just like the 70's

 

[No Delay]

When you work it out so pilots are paid more by regulation, the cost of an airline ticket will go up, ridership will go down. Pilot’s jobs will disappear and the military pilot will again have the first shot at the remaining jobs, just like the 70's

Yeah, but look at what is happening now....

Ticket prices are low, pilot pay is at an all time low...and pilot job are disappearing faster than we can conprehend.

 

[pilotyip]

There are more jobs being created than are disappearing. There is shortage of pilots, tons of hiring going on, maybe not the jobs most would like, but our pilots are having no problems finding jobs. ATI, Atlas, Kalitta, Gemni, Air Willy, Flex Jet, Jet blue.

 

[Mr. Jet 2005]

someone call? There is a Jet Blue pilot in another thread commenting about his lack of a dgree and his success as a military and Jet Blue pilot. I am not making any claims here about the degree or non-degree just bringing everyone up to date on real world of success in a flying career. This is still a great career where else can a high school grad make $100K/yr by his mid-30's with 12-14 days off per month.

Only if that makes it great for somebody, should we all as a whole have the bar lowered because we spent time and invested in ourselves for an education? Or Does the fact we got that 4 year degree mean nothing at all in this industry. It got us started making $20k, but so what. Where do we go now?

How often do you see doctors / attorneys / teachers going to "0 hours - airline job in 3 months!!!" schools?

Thier industry illiminated this type of candidate by raising the bar on what really counts to get hired.