The long, dark walk on the airline conveyer belt

[climbhappy]

spell check: Darnit ,i meant to say "we'll have ....and BORED!"

 

[FlyingMan2005]

If we had less candidates, they would require higher qualified pilots to fill the seats. But what if we had less positions to fill? In the 70's, military pilots were the ones who were getting most of the jobs, and it wasn't because there was a shortage of positions. They were more qualified than your general 600 tt 100 multi pilot.

Today it's different. I'm not a military pilot, but I view that flying in the military there's not as much incentive to leave before retirement and switch to flying a 50 seat jet for 20k and then get furloughed in 2 months.

 

[pilotyip]

FlyingMan the mil pilots are not taking the 20K entrry level jobs, most are going to FedEx, SWA, Jet Blue, Air Tran, etc. They have the experienice to get into the food chain at a higher level.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

FlyingMan the mil pilots are not taking the 20K entrry level jobs, most are going to FedEx, SWA, Jet Blue, Air Tran, etc. They have the experienice to get into the food chain at a higher level.

The reason military pilots aren't taking the "20k entry level jobs" is not because its entry level, but because it only pays 20K. If these young pilots would stop working for substandard wages, then the regionals woudn't be a "20K a year job."
I'd go to work at a regional in a heartbeat if they paid their pilots what they're worth.

 

[Rossa]

Alpa should look at what a real union does - look at the IBEW! They are business oriented, and are divided into "locals" by location. They decide on a rate with each "contractors association" and that's that! The employers pay into a pension / welfare fund administered by each individual local, based on how many hours a person works for that contractor, in each local.
While it may take some creative thinking on the part of ALPA to reach this point, it would provide a degree of security for Pilots and would also prevent underfunding of pensions, etc.....
One major benefit - you wouldn't get fellow ALPA companies like MESA threatening your job!!!!!!!!
Just a thought.

 

[pilotyip]

Yes Rossa and there are tons of non-union electrical workers who make a decent living outside of the union structure. The same would apply to the airlines if the pilots had locals.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Just look back to the old days when the airlines were new. The majority of the airline pilots getting hired were the ex military pilots with tons of experience. Thanks to pilot mills like Embry Riddle pumping out their riddlin kids, now there is a surplus of no experience airline applicants. This lowers the bar for everybody. It's all about supply and demand. The more future airline pilots being pumped out by these schools, the lower the airlines are willing to pay, because they know that there is always another applicant willing to work for $1000 per month. Now if supply ever dwindles down, management will be forced to raise pay and improve working conditions in order to attract pilot applicants.

When were the old days?

In the old days... let's say the 1930's when civilian Airline Pilots were flying the mail, they didn't have exclusive PIC authority and they were getting fired. The Air Mail pilots stuck together and when the next pilot was fired they all quit. Today, we are a bunch of whiney prep school boys to these men. A pilot today will refuse an aircraft only to have his fellow pilot fly it.

Well, the gov't controlled the mail, so they called in the Air Corp pilots to fly it. These military pilots were day VFR types and they were killing themselves too fast. The US Gov't finnaly relented and brought the real air mail pilots back.

Or maybe you are refering to the good ol days of WWII when the Air Lines basically mobilized the US military Air Transportation system. Without the US Air Lines the war would lasted longer. Pilots waived their union contracts and flew hours beyond. Some of the flying the Air Line Pilots did would make a Navy or Air Corp pilot gush and blush...

If you are looking for History and Pride you aren't going to find it on flightinfo.

Without History and Pride we are never going to be to help ourselves make this profession what we want and need it to be....

If we don't help ourselves then someone else will do it for us....

 

[No Delay]

Supply and Demand!

Many of you have already said. It is basis economics...supply and demand. Just look at gas prices (low supply / high demand = high prices). Thats it!!!!

The only way to increase wages is to either increase demand or decrease supply. The FAA needs put higher time requirements for airlines (like 135 requirements). That would be the first step. Then maybe consider limiting the number of ATP ratings issued each year or increasing the requirements for ATP (Captains).

Right now, the airlines will never have a low supply! If the hiring pool starts to dry...no problem...just lower mins. We see it all the time...ASA just lowered hiring mins to 600TT, etc.

hell, they can lower them all the way down to no time requirements...just get your ratings - which would equal 3 months / 250 hours of flying...you find these guys all day long.
Supply and Demand...Supply and Demand...Supply and Demand!

 

[Lebowski]

As pilots we ave no group like doctors or lawyers do to ensure that low-time newbies can't just slide right in.

Six months and 100K can just about turn anyone into a pilot.

I've often thought the same thing. Doctors do a much better job of keeping the bar high than attorneys, but even attorneys do a much better job than we, as pilots, do in making their profession more selective.

Part of the reason that doctors have such secure, high-paying jobs is because the American Medical Association sets standards that require not just a college degree, but completion of graduate school and certfication tests to boot. The American Bar Association does the same thing. But, in this profession, it's totally true that "six months and 100K can just about turn anyone into a pilot," as 100LL said. I think professional pilots missed the boat on this a long time ago.

I know that plenty of you will disagree with me and I'll draw some fire for this. But in the long run, if we want to be treated like professionals, viewed by the public as a professionals, and compensated like a professionals, we need to set some minimal professional standards other than a high school diploma and some flight training. That seems self-evident. And I'm not talking about PTS standards.

Most people don't consider a job that only requires a high school degree + six months of training a "professional" job. That's more like vocational work, and sadly, that seems to be where this profession is headed.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

I've often thought the same thing. Doctors do a much better job of keeping the bar high than attorneys, but even attorneys do a much better job than we, as pilots, do in making their profession more selective.

Part of the reason that doctors have such secure, high-paying jobs is because the American Medical Association sets standards that require not just a college degree, but completion of graduate school and certfication tests to boot. The American Bar Association does the same thing. But, in this profession, it's totally true that "six months and 100K can just about turn anyone into a pilot," as 100LL said. I think professional pilots missed the boat on this a long time ago.

I know that plenty of you will disagree with me and I'll draw some fire for this. But in the long run, if we want to be treated like professionals, viewed by the public as a professionals, and compensated like a professionals, we need to set some minimal professional standards other than a high school diploma and some flight training. That seems self-evident. And I'm not talking about PTS standards.

Most people don't consider a job that only requires a high school degree + six months of training a "professional" job. That's more like vocational work, and sadly, that seems to be where this profession is headed.

Oh jeez.

Now you went and done it. Pilotyip will be along shortly to give us his spiel on how being a pilot has nothing to do with being educated.

 

[Lebowski]

Oh jeez.

Now you went and done it. Pilotyip will be along shortly to give us his spiel on how being a pilot has nothing to do with being educated.

Uh oh. Am I gonna "get schooled" about how we don't need no stinkin' school?

Oh well. Bring it on, FlightInfo Ho's. I expect most pilots without a degree to flame me and tell me that a degree is not required to be a pilot. That's clearly true, which is part of my point: It's not a requirement--but if it were, and if we had an over-arching professional standards group, like the AMA or ABA, it obviously would be harder for people to become pilots, which means there would be fewer of us available, which means we would be getting paid more and treated better.

That's a big part of what the AMA and ABA do--they keep the bar high so salaries stay high. I bet a lot of people could do surgery or make good legal arguments without having a degree or going to med school or law school. But the AMA and ABA ensure that only the people who have an education and then some can become doctors and lawyers. And that keeps salaries high.

It's hard to argue with all the statistics that link higher education to higher income. Yeah, I know there are the exceptions like Bill Gates and other college dropouts who made it big.

I'm not knocking people who don't have degrees. And no, I don't think having a degree necessarily makes you smarter or a better pilot. But can someone tell me how it would hurt our profession to have some higher standards for entry?

I'm strictly talking about how education relates to our profession and why our career seems to be on the downward slide, particularly in relation to other careers that demand a higher education. Why should we as pilots expect anything different if we don't demand a higher standard for ourselves and our peers?

Okay...school me. : )

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Everything is relative.

I never thought the in residency doctor who is awake for 36 hours was very professional. A complex issue, but the senior doctors don't care because they had to do it... so much for policing your own and your industry.

Also, doctors are leaving communities and thier profession due to mal practice. It is all about the dollar

 

[av8er2]

Good post.

Because this industry is so messed up I spend all my free time figuring out how to get out. The one good thing I have learned is I am tired of the airline industry and as a matter of fact everything else deciding where my life goes. I am working hard to start my own business and be my own boss. That way if things get messed up it is my fault.

The industry is going to see a lot of people get the heck out. Everyone I fly with is sick of this stuff and often they are looking to do something else.

Going on an making a decent paycheck with even just a little job security is enjoyed by only a few (Southwest, Ups, Fedex). The odds of getting hired there are not that great and I don't want to be an older guy finally realizing I am too old to go there and I am stuck at a regional that barely pays enough to raise a family.

This industry has a lot of problems that will never be fixed. I have realized that and I am one good qualified captain that is going to move on so a low time inexperienced captain can take my place.

What I see coming is people will ask at the counter what the experience level is of the crew of regional flight. It is going down hill so fast I think the safetly level is next.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Uh oh. Am I gonna "get schooled" about how we don't need no stinkin' school?

Oh well. Bring it on, FlightInfo Ho's. I expect most pilots without a degree to flame me and tell me that a degree is not required to be a pilot. That's clearly true, which is part of my point: It's not a requirement--but if it were, and if we had an over-arching professional standards group, like the AMA or ABA, it obviously would be harder for people to become pilots, which means there would be fewer of us available, which means we would be getting paid more and treated better.

That's a big part of what the AMA and ABA do--they keep the bar high so salaries stay high. I bet a lot of people could do surgery or make good legal arguments without having a degree or going to med school or law school. But the AMA and ABA ensure that only the people who have an education and then some can become doctors and lawyers. And that keeps salaries high.

It's hard to argue with all the statistics that link higher education to higher income. Yeah, I know there are the exceptions like Bill Gates and other college dropouts who made it big.

I'm not knocking people who don't have degrees. And no, I don't think having a degree necessarily makes you smarter or a better pilot. But can someone tell me how it would hurt our profession to have some higher standards for entry?

I'm strictly talking about how education relates to our profession and why our career seems to be on the downward slide, particularly in relation to other careers that demand a higher education. Why should we as pilots expect anything different if we don't demand a higher standard for ourselves and our peers?

Okay...school me. : )

I agree with you.

 

[pilotyip]

someone call? There is a Jet Blue pilot in another thread commenting about his lack of a dgree and his success as a military and Jet Blue pilot. I am not making any claims here about the degree or non-degree just bringing everyone up to date on real world of success in a flying career. This is still a great career where else can a high school grad make $100K/yr by his mid-30's with 12-14 days off per month.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I am not suggesting that this would even be a good idea, but just for one moment SPECULATE on the effect on the industry if ALPA set a minimum of 1500 hours and an ATP to be an ALPA pilot.

Just consider.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am not suggesting that this would even be a good idea, but just for one moment SPECULATE on the effect on the industry if ALPA set a minimum of 1500 hours and an ATP to be an ALPA pilot.

Just consider.

Crazy stuff.... that isn't going to prevent others from getting hired. Divide and conquer, whipsaw will be managments greatest delight...

All pilots who don't fit the bill will be called scabs......

nasty....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am working hard to start my own business and be my own boss. That way if things get messed up it is my fault.

Good call. The only way to make it in this country is ownership. Ownership in stock, real estate and a business.

Just don't compete with Wal Mart....

 

[No Delay]

Couple of things to add...

WillowRunVortex was making a good point...

I am sure there are many people out there who can figure out what is wrong with you and give you the approiate medicine (moms do it all the time). What I am saying, is that with a little on the job training...we could do a doctors job. They have the high education because the AMA requires it.

We do need higher standards for commercial / atp certificates and the airlines should be restricted on hiring low time pilots. This will absolutely have to come from the FAA. The only thing ALPA could do is pressure / lobby the FAA and Congress for these changes.

Maybe we are the ones who need to start pressuring ALPA to pressure the FAA.

 

[chromeshawn]

Solution simple to understand, hard to impliment.

Look at the structure of the Merchant Marine, use that structure in our industry.

That union structure would eliminate most of the major problems that we encounter today. (mergers & seniority integration, pay rates, work rules, unified contracts....)

If you're too lazy to research, you'll never know. Once you do, you will not question.

Jedi mind trick.... ...but the structure seems much better to me.....