The future RJ?

[COOPERVANE]

Plastic is not composite material... composite material is stronger and more durable than metal, also less weight and less susceptible to fatigue cracking and corrosion. Well, at least thats what they taught me when I got my Masters in Aerospace Engineering. Aerospace grade CARBON composites is not the plastic you find on your chainsaw. If it was, your weed eaters would cost 5,000 bucks.

Yeah, well, while earning my MEDICAL DEGREE from the medical college of Grenada, I learned that Age 70 retirement is a great idea!!

 

[LearLove]

Good lord. An airplane is an airplane is an airplane. I've flown the big ass one's and the shiny fast one's. I'd fly a C-150 if I had enough days off and the pay was good.....

winner winner chicken dinner. further i don't care if its a piper cub, if it has wings i want it on my senority list.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, I do not care what airplane it is. It should be on the mainline list. That is an idealistic point of view and I know that. So were do I go. Do I got cry in the corner because a great many DAL pilots do not see it that way? No, What I do is find a way to make progress on this problem. The cat is out of the bag, and there are certain seat classes that will never be back at mainline in my life time. Knowing this fact starts the formation of a game plan.

I wanted a single list back in 2000 when we all had leverage and 2 of the 3 groups were in section 6 negotiations. I am not "crying" about the many mistakes that were made in the past...I am moving forward with what is best for me....which may not necessarily be best for you....

I have no issue with One list, or what ever term dejour you want to use. What I do have an issue with is ignoring the historical precident of guys like you and I getting our start at a regional and then moving to the major. There are different income and career potentials with both lists. We can debate semantics all day about this, but the simple fact is that there is a defined flow to this. It would hold up in court.

I advocated "one list" 10 years ago....Now, not only do I believe it is a pipe dream that is no longer possible, I don't necessarily support it with the conditions you would impose on it.

For there to be anything that resembles true unity there would need to be a "prenup" that every DCI would merge their seniority lists by some way you all agree to, then get stapled to our list. You want protections, from guys like me that left. I get that, but you cannot have the flow one way and not the other. Those are details that can and would be worked out after the first few points I have made have been worked out.

There never has been, nor will there ever be "true unity"....It's like "world peace"....The only unity that exists in this "association" is when interests are aligned. I'm not interested in becoming your furlough protection, or your protection against getting displaced to NYC....Without working out those details, you can stay on your side, and I will stay on my side and we will see where the chips fall....

The MEC guys here point out that the companies control the seniority list and not the union. This is true, so it will take a lot of work. As I pointed out working for multiple carriers does not help the cause. DAL pilots could not fly UAUA code. (make sense)

Back in 2000, I said the longer this drags out, the harder it will be to put the horses back in the barn....We aren't owned by Delta anymore, and now we do United flying....Skywest INC. and Republic Holdings are changing the game.....We will see where that takes us...

As for the jets, as far as I am concerned a turbo prop, jet or a piston jet that flies DAL passengers should be flown by DAL pilots. I would gladly fly a ATR in a DAL uniform with a DAL number. I could give two hoots about the size of the jet. Guess what? Most guys here are seeing it that way too. Even better when the ones that do not quite get it will sign on since they are to senior to worry about it.

You may not "give two hoots", but many of your fellow colleagues think certain flying is "beneath them"...That is how this whole mess started....I too don't care as long as I get the schedule I want....I have that now...I'll go back to the Bandit if that's what it takes to keep my schedule...

In reality, I am sure we will have to cut across some weight barrier or seat barrier to note lift that will forever be outsource. It is way to premature to argue that since most people are still worried about the if.

I think that arbitary limit will remain about where it is now. I think you will see more RAH type action, and more Air Tran "code sharing" type agreements that will lead to the surviving "regionals" getting larger airplanes.

 

[crj567]

I wanted a single list back in 2000 when we all had leverage and 2 of the 3 groups were in section 6 negotiations. I am not "crying" about the many mistakes that were made in the past...I am moving forward with what is best for me....which may not necessarily be best for you....



I advocated "one list" 10 years ago....Now, not only do I believe it is a pipe dream that is no longer possible, I don't necessarily support it with the conditions you would impose on it.



There never has been, nor will there ever be "true unity"....It's like "world peace"....The only unity that exists in this "association" is when interests are aligned. I'm not interested in becoming your furlough protection, or your protection against getting displaced to NYC....Without working out those details, you can stay on your side, and I will stay on my side and we will see where the chips fall....



Back in 2000, I said the longer this drags out, the harder it will be to put the horses back in the barn....We aren't owned by Delta anymore, and now we do United flying....Skywest INC. and Republic Holdings are changing the game.....We will see where that takes us...



You may not "give two hoots", but many of your fellow colleagues think certain flying is "beneath them"...That is how this whole mess started....I too don't care as long as I get the schedule I want....I have that now...I'll go back to the Bandit if that's what it takes to keep my schedule...




I think that arbitary limit will remain about where it is now. I think you will see more RAH type action, and more Air Tran "code sharing" type agreements that will lead to the surviving "regionals" getting larger airplanes.

-Joe-


-The RJDC is dead and gone-but it served its purpose well. The majors saw it as a seniority grab attempt, and the regional guys saw it as an opportunity to make a crappy temporary job into a somewhat respectable career. The true purpose of the RJDC was to split any bonds that regional pilots and mainline pilots had formed-and to have them at odds forever and henceforth. Both regional and mainline guys are still at each other's throats whenever the RJDC acronym crops up....

Face it-many people were had, and we are all still mad at one another over this organization, which I will always believe was the brainchild of someone high up in Delta mgmt. at the time. This person wanted to make sure the regionals and manline never became a huge, continuous bargaining group with common interests. The RJDC did an absolutely beautiful job of ensuring that this would never happen.

-Really-think back on the events of the time-does this scenario not make sense? Did it not look like the Delta mainline guys were starting to back up their regional counterparts a bit too much?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Joe,
That is why it is a good thing that you are not representing your pilots. It is about you and not the other pilots you work with!

 

[JoeMerchant]

-Joe-


-The RJDC is dead and gone-but it served its purpose well. The majors saw it as a seniority grab attempt, and the regional guys saw it as an opportunity to make a crappy temporary job into a somewhat respectable career. The true purpose of the RJDC was to split any bonds that regional pilots and mainline pilots had formed-and to have them at odds forever and henceforth. Both regional and mainline guys are still at each other's throats whenever the RJDC acronym crops up....

Face it-many people were had, and we are all still mad at one another over this organization, which I will always believe was the brainchild of someone high up in Delta mgmt. at the time. This person wanted to make sure the regionals and manline never became a huge, continuous bargaining group with common interests. The RJDC did an absolutely beautiful job of ensuring that this would never happen.

-Really-think back on the events of the time-does this scenario not make sense? Did it not look like the Delta mainline guys were starting to back up their regional counterparts a bit too much?

Where you even here when the events transpired? The RJDC didn't form until AFTER the ASA and CMR MECs filed for a single list...You are delusional if you think folks like General Lee and Scope out RJs will look out for your best interests with or without RJDC....

American/Eagle, USAir/USAir Express, United/UAX, and CAL/CALExp are having the same issues and they didn't have an "RJDC"...RJDC was simply a result of failed ALPA policy...Nothing more...nothing less....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,
That is why it is a good thing that you are not representing your pilots. It is about you and not the other pilots you work with!

Your position is about YOU and not necessarily ALL of the ASA or CMR pilots....Everyone looks at all of these issues through the glasses of how it will affect them....YOU INCLUDED!

I would say about 35% of ASA pilots consider themselves "lifers" or possible "lifers".....You will need to appease that very influencial constituency if you want a mutual agreement...especially with the results of the recent elections.....

We have created a "what's in it for me" industry...That is a fact that you have to deal with.....

 

[crj567]

Where you even here when the events transpired? The RJDC didn't form until AFTER the ASA and CMR MECs filed for a single list...You are delusional if you think folks like General Lee and Scope out RJs will look out for your best interests with or without RJDC....

American/Eagle, USAir/USAir Express, United/UAX, and CAL/CALExp are having the same issues and they didn't have an "RJDC"...RJDC was simply a result of failed ALPA policy...Nothing more...nothing less....

I know all about the RJDC, and it was an absolutely BEAUTIFUL plan..... The plan was to let the pilots rip apart ALPA from within, and to let the pilots fight it out amongst themselves over some fabled "seniority grab," which was never anything more than a rumor-perpetrated by mgmt.

It was a brilliant way to rip the pilots apart from each other-and mgmt. never had to lift a finger.... All they had to do was to convince a "friend of a friend" of a couple of very senior ASA and Comair guys that their interests were best served by suing ALPA for screwing them in terms of representation. They just put a couple of bugs in the right ears, and bingo! Game on! Then they spread the "seniority grab" rumor over at mainline, and poop began to rain from the sky!

-Joe-I know the RJDC very well. I know all about it, and I know mgmt. could never have done as much damage to ALPA and to our relationship with mainline guys as the RJDC scam did via its own members.

-Pilots are always other pilots' worst enemy. Mgmt. has known this forever-I have no idea why it is not obvious to more of us.

-I knew the RJDC was stupid at the time, and I didn't fall for it. Call me a loser or a sucker, or whatever-but it saw it for what it really was.

-Some guys still haven't figured it out after 10 years.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Your position is about YOU and not necessarily ALL of the ASA or CMR pilots....Everyone looks at all of these issues through the glasses of how it will affect them....YOU INCLUDED!

I would say about 35% of ASA pilots consider themselves "lifers" or possible "lifers".....You will need to appease that very influencial constituency if you want a mutual agreement...especially with the results of the recent elections.....

We have created a "what's in it for me" industry...That is a fact that you have to deal with.....

No Joe, you do not know what I want. You can not get around the fact that there are people like me willing to take a hit for the greater good. I am not worried about me per say, but my fellow pilots. Guys on the bottom of the list have a valid concern over some of your demands.

As for your recent election, I know exactly what you are hinting at. You also know that some of those guys had other aspirations a few years ago.

It is not just this industry it is this society. I am concerned about what is best for my family, but the reality is I know I will survive with out delta. That may be why I a more willing to work on a solution.

I actually agree with CRJ567 on many of his points. It worked great for management, but I will have to disagree that it was created by management. That is the last thing I would call the founder.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I know all about the RJDC, and it was an absolutely BEAUTIFUL plan..... The plan was to let the pilots rip apart ALPA from within, and to let the pilots fight it out amongst themselves over some fabled "seniority grab," which was never anything more than a rumor-perpetrated by mgmt.

It was a brilliant way to rip the pilots apart from each other-and mgmt. never had to lift a finger.... All they had to do was to convince a "friend of a friend" of a couple of very senior ASA and Comair guys that their interests were best served by suing ALPA for screwing them in terms of representation. They just put a couple of bugs in the right ears, and bingo! Game on! Then they spread the "seniority grab" rumor over at mainline, and poop began to rain from the sky!

-Joe-I know the RJDC very well. I know all about it, and I know mgmt. could never have done as much damage to ALPA and to our relationship with mainline guys as the RJDC scam did via its own members.

-Pilots are always other pilots' worst enemy. Mgmt. has known this forever-I have no idea why it is not obvious to more of us.

-I knew the RJDC was stupid at the time, and I didn't fall for it. Call me a loser or a sucker, or whatever-but it saw it for what it really was.

-Some guys still haven't figured it out after 10 years.

ALPA did everything you accuse RJDC of...Tell me what you think would be different today if RJDC had never happened.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No Joe, you do not know what I want. You can not get around the fact that there are people like me willing to take a hit for the greater good. I am not worried about me per say, but my fellow pilots. Guys on the bottom of the list have a valid concern over some of your demands.

You wouldn't take a hit to your job for the greater good in regards to this issue....Let's just say for argument sake, that a single list was proposed for all Delta flying that included ALL of the DCI carriers. Let's also say that it was based on DOH. Would you support it?

As for your recent election, I know exactly what you are hinting at. You also know that some of those guys had other aspirations a few years ago.

I had "other aspirations" at one time also....Three downturns later and a total failure on scope changes those "aspirations".....

It is not just this industry it is this society. I am concerned about what is best for my family, but the reality is I know I will survive with out delta. That may be why I a more willing to work on a solution.

I have grave concerns regarding our economy going forward....I need about 5 more years at ASA and I can survive without ASA or Delta.....I and others are also willing to work on a solution....We won't be dictated on a solution however that simply uses us as furlough fodder and displacement fodder....

I actually agree with CRJ567 on many of his points. It worked great for management, but I will have to disagree that it was created by management. That is the last thing I would call the founder.

ALPA's failures along with mainline ego and lack of foresight created the problem....Management simply exploited the issue to their favor....

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Joe, I would support what the majority supported. Trying to nail me down so you could get me in court will not work. I know you want DOH so you can be a senior 88A or junior 767A, but in reality that will not happen.

FWIW, I did not support DOH when I was at ASA. I was completely fine with a staple even though guys that were junior to me went to DAL. ( I understood that DAL was a step up from ASA, and as my actions show, I took the step up. Those that took the risk should not get personalized because you did not)

You talk about 35% at ASA. To me that means that 75% would gladly support a prenup. I know plenty of guys there that would support anything to get a DAL number
DOH did not work in the last major merger, and I cannot see it working here. The new way of doing a seniority integration is be relative based on seat and aircraft size, ala DAL-NWA. It made the most sense, as it would here.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, I would support what the majority supported. Trying to nail me down so you could get me in court will not work. I know you want DOH so you can be a senior 88A or junior 767A, but in reality that will not happen.

You totally missed the whole point of what I was saying...You said you would sacrifice for the greater good...If that greater good could only be done with DOH, would you support it...?

I don't want DOH....I simply want protection from getting bumped out of what I have....I'm perfectly happy where I am....

FWIW, I did not support DOH when I was at ASA. I was completely fine with a staple even though guys that were junior to me went to DAL. ( I understood that DAL was a step up from ASA, and as my actions show, I took the step up. Those that took the risk should not get personalized because you did not)

I only advocate DOH when I hear "staple" from your side....Neither is reasonable in my opinion...I'm not about to go sit MD80 reserve in JFK....just as I don't expect to be MD80 Capt. in ATL.....

You talk about 35% at ASA. To me that means that 75% would gladly support a prenup. I know plenty of guys there that would support anything to get a DAL number
DOH did not work in the last major merger, and I cannot see it working here. The new way of doing a seniority integration is be relative based on seat and aircraft size, ala DAL-NWA. It made the most sense, as it would here.

Your math is a little fuzzy...I think you mean 65% would gladly take that pure staple...You are probably right, but you won't get a deal without the 35%.....We're kinda like the US Senate...This 35% can fillabuster...I know at least 3 of the 4 new MEC members wouldn't accept a deal that allows the senior ASA pilots to be bumped out of their position....

Again, DOH is only a starting position of mine if you insist on a pure staple....If you want to be reasonable, then we can be reasonable....

Of interest, the Medex MEC just asked for DOH with RAH for furlough recall...That seniority list with RAH/Frontier/Medex is going to reshuffle the deck for any future arbitrations....Times are a changing.....

 

[crj567]

ALPA did everything you accuse RJDC of...Tell me what you think would be different today if RJDC had never happened.

I think that the DAL mainline guys and at least the guys at ASA and Comair would have been on one list-long ago... The RJDC made the hopes of ASA and Comair guys way too easy to demigogue. The RJDC made it look like there was some organized effort to get DOH seniority at mainline.

ACL-I never had inside knowledge of the guys running the RJDC, but I do see it as something that fit perfectly into mgmt's goal of keeping the regional guys and the mainline guys at each other's throats. It could have been incredibly lucky for mgmt, but "luck" seems awfully convenient in this case.

I happen to think that mgmt. was more clever than to have approached someone like Ford directly-I think that they just planted a few bugs in a few ears and let things proceed along a course they knew these things were likely to take.

-Perhaps it was just blind luck-but back in those days, there was a real threat of the two groups getting together and becoming much more powerful as a united front. It sure seems mighty "lucky" and "convenient" for the RJDC to just have evolved by random chance. It was mgmt's prototypical wet dream!

-Whatever the cause, the effect is the same-everyone still hates each other-and we all blame our problems on the opposite group. There is no question that things would be a lot better now if the RJDC had never happened at all.

 

[crj567]

Joe, I would support what the majority supported. Trying to nail me down so you could get me in court will not work. I know you want DOH so you can be a senior 88A or junior 767A, but in reality that will not happen.

FWIW, I did not support DOH when I was at ASA. I was completely fine with a staple even though guys that were junior to me went to DAL. ( I understood that DAL was a step up from ASA, and as my actions show, I took the step up. Those that took the risk should not get personalized because you did not)

You talk about 35% at ASA. To me that means that 75% would gladly support a prenup. I know plenty of guys there that would support anything to get a DAL number
DOH did not work in the last major merger, and I cannot see it working here. The new way of doing a seniority integration is be relative based on seat and aircraft size, ala DAL-NWA. It made the most sense, as it would here.

Dammit- ACL-

I think we are on the same page on this one (although your math may be a bit questionable.) I have never supported DOH-that would have been silly. I certainly would support almost any system which would unite the pilot groups and undo all the crap that the RJDC has wrought. I regret ever having heard the RJDC acronym-it has really done a lot of damage to both our pilot groups.

-What a mess. I still find it hard to believe that LJ and JB are still totally spanking off to this RJDC stuff. 10 years of pathetic wreckage, and STILL buying that RJDC crap? Really? Seriously?