The Flight Surgeon Is Not Your Friend

[Birdstrike]

Going through my med recs yesterday (I kept mine after retirement, turned in copies) and started reviewing my experiences with Army Flight Surgeons. I had almost thirty annual physicals stuffed in there.

I don't know what the consensus opinions of these strange beings might be, but based on my overall experiences, my advice to guys just starting out would be...tell them nothing, absolutely nothing...or it will come back and attempt to bite you big time.

The best ones were in the Guard from places like Lexington, OK and the worst were the foreign contracters at Ft. McPherson who had difficulty with English. Just tell them you are disgustingly healthy and make them prove otherwise. One innocent comment can launch an inquisition that can takes months to clear up. Ask your questions to somebody who doesn't know you and who won't have the power to suspend your flying with one stroke of the pen.

 

[weekendwarrior]

Second that one! One piece of advise that was given to me by some mentors in the Army was, if you ever get knocked out for any reason DON"T SAY ANYTHING about it! If you get knocked out and your spouse calls the ambulance, make sure she realizes NOT to say you were ever unconcious. Talk about being grounded. That's an automatic 12 months, cat scans, etc, etc. They don't screw around with stuff like that.

We had a guy in flight school that was feeling dizzy while riding in the back of a TH-67. They landed and he started shaking and passing out. Turned out to be nothing, maybe very dehydrated. Nevertheless, he was grounded for 2 months, and had to get a spinal tap! Ouch!

 

[GogglesPisano]

Second that one! One piece of advise that was given to me by some mentors in the Army was, if you ever get knocked out for any reason DON"T SAY ANYTHING about it! If you get knocked out and your spouse calls the ambulance, make sure she realizes NOT to say you were ever unconcious. Talk about being grounded. That's an automatic 12 months, cat scans, etc, etc. They don't screw around with stuff like that.

We had a guy in flight school that was feeling dizzy while riding in the back of a TH-67. They landed and he started shaking and passing out. Turned out to be nothing, maybe very dehydrated. Nevertheless, he was grounded for 2 months, and had to get a spinal tap! Ouch!

There are only two ways a pilot walks out of a doctor's office: fine or grounded.

 

[ThomasR]

No Friends in Hire Places

You all have hit on a subject that goes silent by those who are jacked by a flight surgeon thinking he is a general in a command performance. Issues goes silent because a flight surgeon can kill your military career, no questions ask. They have absolutaly no military bearing and gloat on their position and ability to manipulate by intimidation.

A surgeon does not command troops and those in higher places should take more interest instead of living by a hackneyed slogan "don't rock the boat."

Getting on the wrong side of a surgeon you will find you have no friends at all willing to risk their own safe place.

Thanks for bringing it up. You might get screwed by the system but you have a friend here.

 

[bigr]

Flight surgeons are no joke. i got the "Nami-Whami" back in '86 at pensacola. been flying cessnas ever since. i wish i had taken the NFO job they offered.

every time i see the movie apollo 13 i laugh at the scene where jim lovell says to deke slayton when they decide to ground ken mattingley right before the launch:

"DEKE, THIS IS FLIGHT SURGEON HORSE $HIT"

another funny scene is when the flight controller goes thru the pre-launch check with all the guys (when they answer "were go flight"). when the flight surgeon answers he is exhaling a huge drag from a cigarette (only a pilot would get the irony). i was the only one in the theatre that laughed out loud.

 

[ThomasR]

bigr

I don't know what a nami whami is but I bet that surgeon didn't either; and he will ground you without ever knowing what it is; they don't research anything.

They read a few lengthy books, cut up some dead animals and learn the difference between a penis and a vagina. They go into the military with a couple bars on their shoulder thinking they are Gen. Patton out to win some make believe war. They grab this, pull that, squeeze here and poke there; say your ok. If you look at them with one eyebrow raised they begin to think about what options they have to put you in line.

They are one step above these corporate weazels that are flushing the U.S. economy down the toilet. They are one small step above weazelness only because in their narrow minds they really believe they are being constructive.

Am I angry, you bet I am. And I would very much like to be able to fire any flight surgeon who does not like what I am saying. Get out of the military and practice your weazely voodoo craft on real sick people.

 

[AlbieF15]

I have a buddy who was roof stomping and fell off into an Alaska snow drift. Ankle got big as a catelope. Took some leave, went home, and got it scoped (othoscopic surgery) on his on time and dime to avoid problems with flight medicine.

I LOVE flight surgeons. They are a hoot to fly with, do a great job taking care of my wife and kids, and if I have a cold, a wart on a finger, or need some medicine for dry sky or other minor irritants...THEY ROCK. I'd get to know them, make friends, enjoy their company. He11...I even worked went to the school of aerospace medicine and became an aerospace physiologist, and I had a great boss (who was a flight surgeon) for over 2 years.

Now...if I had dizzy spells, stomach pains, join issues, depression, or any other potentially serious isses, I would of course disclose them to a flight doc. Right after I went somewhere else, on my own dime, got a referral from a trusted doctor buddy, and had the issue investigated....and was convinced I could stand not flying in the AF again. Until then...I'd keep it to myself. Maybe wrong...but that's what I would do.

However...in defense of some of our doctor brothers... My old F15 commander has 2 metal hips...stayed flying. Another F15 bro is flying with 1 kidney. Yet another has 1 metal hip and another got put together AFTER falling out of a pickup truck at 50mph and got back on status dispite multiple broken bones. A former OV-10 squadron mate who almost lost a leg in an Army helicopter crash (the proverbial "watch this Air Force.." story...) got back on status and flew F16s for years, largely due to the help of one very proactive flight surgeon. Most of the flighter flight docs I've had have been great guys with a warrior spirit who tried to keep people flying. That aside, I've also caught glimpses here and there of other types, like those mentioned on the thread.

Best advice--discretion. Don't babble, and don't run to the flight doc for every little issue. Like pilots, they come in good and bad forms. It is best to know your audience, and if you don't know them...shut up.

24 years of good FAA physicals and 18 of AF physicals...here's hoping for a lot more.

 

[Freight Dog]

My wife is an Army Flight Surgeon and a newly FAA-designated AME for FEDERAL/MILITARY region. When she was going through training at Ft Rucker, she told me the instructors REALLY stressed to all the trainees that their job is NOT to ground the pilots, but to keep them flying. My wife took it to heart, and she is currently deployed to Iraq. I've had a couple of pilots from her unit tell me that she is BY FAR the best flight surgeon they've encountered in the Army and that they're lucky to have her. Her Rear Detachment commander is my drinking buddy, and he told me the same thing on more than one occasion.

My wife told me... if there's any possible way to keep a pilot flying, a good flight surgeon will bend over backwards to find it, and I've watched her work to get a guy back up in the air.

Not all of them are assholes... Just the luck of the draw..

 

[46Driver]

A number of flight surgeons in Pensacola are pilots how did their initial tour, got bored, and went to medical school - my flight school roommate being one of them. "Doc" has got 1800 hours in Whiskey model Cobras so don't assume all Docs can't fly or don't have a pilot's perspective.

 

[BWatz]

I leave for Navy OCS very soon and I'm sweating the "Nami-Whami". I guess it's one of those things that is out of your control.

 

[ThomasR]

OK, well said and timely to an other wise negative review of flight surgeons. However, I have a problem when even people close up and personal to the military medical community use the words "luck of the draw." The military does not rely on Luck. Every thing is planned, studies and mapped. What I am saying is that at a point pre 9/11 military medicine got a rubber stamp without question. And people using their "own dime" to circumvent the system indicates a serious problem still exists.

I am not disputing skills, it is attitude to duty, follow through and dedication to a profession that I question. There are back up systems all through aviation to prevent pilots from making serious mistakes (human error). Military doctors have no back up. What they say and do is final at Rucker and Rucker is where your orders are processed. Someone puts a stop on that it takes more than a dime to get things going again.

Doctors know this and I am saying they abuse the system for selfish reasons. Luck should have nothing to do with aviation. Luck is the game we play between missions.

 

[Birdstrike]

My Point, and I do have one...

Noted that there are qualified professionals as well as weasels out there. I took my first flight physical in 1975 and my final one in 2001. Through all of those physicals and physicians my recommendation remains...given the choice of "confiding" a medical or personal problem (Lord help you if you ever mention the word 'depression') with your flight surgeon and keeping it from him/her...I would say that the safest thing to do, because of all the a-holes out there, is to seek outside help and keep it to yourself. The risks are simply too great to your flying career to do otherwise.

Thomas R - ref your quote:

"The military does not rely on Luck. Every thing is planned, studies and mapped..." um...

In the immortal words of John McEnroe, "..you cannot be serious!..."

 

[ThomasR]

..................... "The military does not rely on Luck. Every thing is planned, studied and mapped..." um...

In the immortal words of John McEnroe, "..you cannot be serious!..."

It has been my experience, then, that any mission I was sent on had been planned out using current field data. Once the $hit hits the fan it looks and feels random but I never went into an area that, at least, was not anticipated to be a hot spot. And doctors should not be random in their diagnosis either. They should know what they are doing not throwing $hit at the wall to see what sticks.

Please excuse me to all the professionals, but my experience with flight surgeons is quite limited; and you can see what one "bad apple" does to your profession.

&*#!!! CENSORS $$$$

 

[bigr]

FYI - as i recall the term N.A.M.I. stands for naval air medical institute. its where you take your first flight physical. some guys get dinged on eyes, one guy got dinged on his heart and was sent home. if its your eyes they will offer you an NFO position. my recommendation is take the job. its a much better position in the navy and marines then in the air force. NFOs get much more respect than there counterparts in the air force. or thats the way it used to be. it may be different now but back in the 80s NFOs could career track to squadron and air wing command positions, i don't think that is the same in the air force.

 

[ThomasR]

Nambi Pambi

OK, noted; Nami wimpie or something is Air Force jargon I get it. I expect the Air Force and the Army pull their recruitment med. personnel from the same pile. I don't give a rats a$$ about them. Slip them a couple bucks and a sob story and you will pass just fine. You got a 80% wash out rate anyway, big deal.

What I am talking about are the ones assigned to an aviation unit. Part of the group, esprit de corps, simper fie, yahda yadha. The ones you meet in the Officers Club, in the mess hall, on the flight line. These are the rat faced weazels I am talking about. [and it is weazel not weasel, I put them into a class all to themselves. I don't even want to equate them with a cute little rodent.]

If you are in a combat unit they keep you running like a fine Swiss watch. You could be a "mass murderer" and they would ignore the obvious. Once you get state side they become some kind of rouge agent. Something sneaky and covert. Advice: DON'T PI$$ THEM OFF . Like said in an earlier post, "they are not your friend." You can get 10,000 outside opinions both civ. and mil. to counter the deed and Rucker ignores all. Once you are marked, Rucker regards you as tainted goods.

It's just my experience, what else can I say?

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

I leave for Navy OCS very soon and I'm sweating the "Nami-Whami". I guess it's one of those things that is out of your control.

Far from the truth. I was sweating the vision back when I knew I was going to be in front of those folks. I did something about it....went to a civlian, learned a lot about my eyes and that my vision could be improved without surgery. I also learned a lot about how best to prepare for a vision test...ie. getting plenty of rest and a good nutrition prior to the test, etc. Anyway, my point is that just like a backround check, you should go see a civilian doctor long before the NAMI folks start fondling your private parts so that you may know what sort of things they might find. If you find some "trouble spots" early on, you can correct them and go into that whami-zone feeling confident that you'll get the up-chit.

Freight Dog,
I guess I now know where I'll be getting my physicals now that Doc Scaff is retiring!

 

[BWatz]

Hugh,
Thanks for the advice. I work for an eye doc (part-time), and get exams all the time. I've got 20-15 vision, and I'm still sweating the physical. I'm in great physical shape with perfect vision, but I'm still worried. I've heard to many horror stories. I've hit the Dentist, Optometrist, and Physician this week so hopefully there won't be any surprises. Either way I'm not looking forward to "the finger". BTW, thanks to all the Navy guys on the board who helped me along the way.

 

[Future SNA]

I just had my physical done over in Meridian, all I can say is "Doc" the Flight Surgeon down there is a hell of a nice guy.

 

[BWatz]

Patmack18,

I appreciate the tip. I did not think about the tired part. I can see how that would mess up your vision. I assume once you pass that physical you are good to go.(atleast I hope) I've been running my @ss off so hopefully it will soften the "kick in the balls" that I am about to experience. Thanks again. Congrats on that jet slot!

 

[rjl2001]

the only flight surgeon i've seen was coast guard, and he was a good guy. he told me I could go see a different optometrist since my test up there was borderline. the navy optometrist though i didn't especially like. he gave me a depth perception test and was saying i must have trouble driving with such bad depth perception and playing sports, much less flying. i have 20/15 vision and i have no trouble with depth perception flying in the civilian world. anyway, i just went to an opthometrist today who was a USAFA graduate, he made it clear i can never fly in the military.

off-topic with this question but, do all the government agencies like ICE, Border Patrol, ATF, etc. use military flight physicals for their pilots or do they go with FAA flight physicals?