The Evil of PFT......

[ILStoMinimums]

Hello guys!

As some of you know, I'm a student half way through my training. I have talked to quite a few pilots and most say PFT is as dangerous as FIRE.

Well if you guys, who have experience, would post all the ups and downs of PFT I would love to hear what ya'll have to say. I have a friend who is or was considering an outfit such as Alpine Air/Tab Express/AmeriFlight.
I have read about Tabs PFT program but haven't really heard much about AMF and Alpines program? He is constantly asking me what he should do, and I'd like to stear him down the right path in order to avoid some major (possible) problems down the road.

I've heard of guys get turned down at good places like AS, etc for participating in PFT, for example a guy who flew for Alpine then GLA and got a NO ar AS.

From talking to some guys I personally run from anything that has to do with PFT, this is just my personal view point - so no flame bait here guys.

I'd just like to get some healthy info I can pass on to others when asked.

Thanks guys and gals I appreciate the input!

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

A program has to meet a two-prong test for it to be P-F-T:

(1) That the new employee remits money to the employer for his/her training as a condition of employment; and

(2) That the training provided is esoteric and specific only to that company, with no rating, certificate or other generally-accepted credential provided.

Applying this test, such places as DCA and MAPD do not constitute P-F-T. Both of these operations are flight schools. They are not employers. For sure, they have strong ties to their parent airlines and offer greater opportunities, but, at bottom, they are just flight schools that train students for FAA certificates and ratings, all of which are accepted throughout aviation.

An operation such as TAB Express is still just a flight school. TAB trains its students for the same FAA certificates and ratings which are accepted elsewhere, and it trains multi students in KingAirs, which is all well and good (and expensive). TAB and others may claim to offer a bridge to the regionals, but it and other such schools are not P-F-T. Take their promises of interviews with a huge grain of salt.

Some of the outfits you mentioned offer so-called SIC programs, but some of the time may be questionable because the pilots who pay for and ride as "SICs" may not actually be required crew members per the FARs under which their flights are operating. So, while a lot can be learned riding around during 135 and freight flights, the flight time may be bogus. Such flight time may cast aspersions on all your flight time and can seriously damage your credibility.

Other P-F-T programs may lead to jobs and "legitimate" flight time. Many of these programs require less flight time than other jobs. People resent those who participate in such P-F-T because these individuals are trying to pull an end-run around those who have built their experience through legitimate and more traditional means. Compare it to standing in a long line at the supermarket or bank and someone cutting in line in front of you. How do you like that? People resent those who don't follow the rules. During interviews, such individuals may be blackballed by their peers who worked their way up legitimately.

Another reason why so many people resent P-F-T is it discounts almost down to nothing the value of experience and how it was obtained. Face it, the bottom-line P-F-T qualification is one's bank account. P-F-T companies may claim that they want only the best-qualified people. Yes - the best-qualified checkbook!

P-F-T demeans pilots. No job is worth paying for. It's supposed to be the other way; they pay you. It sets a bad precedent. It establishes the wrong employer-employee relationship from the beginning. The company figures that by paying for the job that you must be a desperate person and you'll do anything else demeaning to keep the job. P-F-T devalues your worth and the effort you put forth to become a pilot.

These are just a few reasons not to P-F-T. May I suggest you and/or your "friend" run a board search of P-F-T to learn more.

Happy reading!

 

[kevdog]

Wow, I almost thought P-F-T threads were history.

Not to start a flame, but which is worse, a P-F-T'er or someone who's daddy got them the job due to family connections? These people are usually deeper in the wallet.

 

[PCL_128]

Wow, I almost thought P-F-T threads were history.

The PFT threads never go away. I've seen them here for 3 years now. I don't think I've seen anybody say anything new about it in those 3 years though. It's just the same old crap, over and over again.

 

[350DRIVER]

I would stay clear of all such programs at all costs. Some will say that it is no big deal but the bottom line is that this may indeed be the quickest way to ruin an airline career. I certainly know a few on interview boards that will automatically dq an applicant based on the person's history and prior aviation experience. I would not want to have to justify this, however some have made it to the nationals and majors by going this route. It is a gamble at best, I would suggest to anyone in the position not to try it and wait to test the end results. There is such a surplus of pilots right now that you need everything you can get just to be competitive and marketable, this industry can and will be very selective. You will be competing with guys with 3000+ hours, types, and the complete nine yards and these programs are not going to be much help to you. I suggest that you take the normal route and build your time by instructing, 135, etc, etc. This industry is not what it once was... You may be able to get into the regionals but after that it will be a completely different ball game all together. Bobby as much as I enjoy reading your posts I must disagree, you are buying that seat after you complete your training. Tab is no different than Gulfstream or any other carrier that will train you at your expense. Instead of having to "pay" a new hire and train them at their expense they do it the other way around, this is undercutting the industry as any other program does.


3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

Paying the TAB is also paying for training

Bobby as much as I enjoy reading your posts I must disagree, you are buying that seat after you complete your training. Tab is no different than Gulfstream or any other carrier that will train you at your expense.

I started to draft a response to my friend, 350, denoting the differences between TAB, which, heretofore, was a gold-plated Part 61 flight school only, and Gulfstream, and had planned to document my response with information from the TAB website - until I looked at the site. Well, I now stand corrected. Apparently, TAB Express is now a P-F-T charter airline:

Thank you for your interest in TAB Express Airline. We are an on-demand charter airline based in Daytona Beach, Florida servicing cities throughout Florida and the Bahamas. Although we are not a flight school, we do train and hire our own crews. No previous flight experience is required. First Officer candidates that train with us are guaranteed a First Officer position on our airline upon completion of the Commercial Certificate at 250 hours or more total flight time, and the First Officer Pre-Hire Training (Indoc).

First Officer candidates must pass a pre-screening, a criminal background check, be a current U.S. resident, at least a high school graduate, between the ages of 20 and 50 and hold a valid First Class FAA Medical Certificate. (I guess I'm too old for this program, too. I'm going on 53! Though I'm sure my check in their faces would easily obviate this obstacle. (Don't worry, I would never do it! )

Our First Officers are required by our insurance underwriter to have at least 100 hours turboprop and 100 hours turbine simulator before they can be hired by our airline. Therefore, we do our primary training (Private through Multi-Engine Commercial) mainly in the Beech King Air Turboprop. Pilots who have already earned their Commercial Certificate elsewhere, still have to accumulate this flight experience before going on to the airline.

TAB Express currently has agreements with larger code-share regional airlines to interview TAB First Officers when they reach 500 hours total time. The typical TAB graduate has 500 hours of total flight time, which includes 350 turbine, 250 of which are in the Beech 1900. A type rating in the Beech 1900 is included.

Although grads receive credentials that can be marketed anywhere, which apparently fails the second prong of the two-prong test, the line is crossed when "employment" is "guaranteed," which ties it back to the first prong. Compare with MAPD or Comair, which train people for Commercial-Instrument-Single-Multi and to CFI, respectively, but does not guarantee employment. TAB is P-F-T, alright.

 

[deadstick]

I'm trying figure this one out. They advertise the "F/O -Experieced" and "...- No Experience." I would think the Experienced ones are the "real" F/Os and the others are the PFTers. (Until they get enough PFTers that is -- never see GA advertise for F/O's)

Real?

PFT?

Anybody know more?


Well heII's bells, bobbysamd, looks like you answered my question as I was typing it. I wonder if turbine helo time would count for the TP.

 

[bobbysamd]

TAB

Not to mention that "although we are not a flight school we do train and hire our own crews" and "we do our primary training (Private through Multi-Engine Commercial) mainly in the Beech King Air Turboprop . . . ."

If they do primary training, how can they not be a flight school? Poorly written, if not confusing and ambiguous . . . .

 

[deadstick]

So how can they post something like this:

"We are currently hiring First Officers to fly the line in our Beech 1900s.

Competitive minimums are 1000 TT, 100 Multi."

for "Experienced" F/O's when they still have to get the same training as the Jr. Bird-people (must be PC ) who have 250 hrs of C152 time? Something smells....

 

[bobbysamd]

Turbine rotor time

I wonder if turbine helo time would count for the TP.

I should think that it would count, but that's just me.

 

[Mike man]

You tell your buddy that he just might get a job with someone like Mesa right after his PFT "job" but that is as far as he will go. Because there will always be someone who got F#&KED/passed over/overlooked/etc by PFT and when I or anyone else like that is on the interview committee and your buddy or anyone else interviews he/she will not be getting a job.

There will always be someone who knows how bad PFT is!

And check this $HIT out they are infiltrating a good reputable flight school...

http://www.wmich.edu/aviation/news/articles/2004/020504_GulfstreamAcMeet.htm

 

[Brett Hull]

ILStoMinimums,

Do Doctors pay clinics for the privilege of seeing patients?

Do Attorneys pay their firms for the privilege of trying cases?

Why should pilots pay their employers when it should be the other way around?

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Thanks guys! Very imformative and I agree.....

Its one of those gambling deals - you can win, but the chances of loosing are much greater!

 

[350DRIVER]

Bobby,

Sure hope these sorts of programs are a dying breed... I was somewhat appauled when I saw how they market this program and the astronomical charges that the student must pay to get into the right seat.


3 5 0

 

[blade230]

Hey Mike,

"might get a job with someone like Mesa right after his PFT "job" but that is as far as he will go",

This quote is not exactly the truth. You, and some other pilots may hate PFT, but there are many PFT pilots at every single major airline in this country. They will continue to be at every major airline in this country. And they are senior to you, (and me for that matter) and they also could be on the interview boards. They could possibly be interviewing you.

The comment you made could go either way. Many of the people who PFT, either at places like Gulfstream, TAB, Mesa PACE, and PFT regionals, are sons and daughters of major airline pilots.

I am DEFINATELY NOT saying to go and PFT, but at least educate with facts. PFT could bite you in the as5, but it may not. But hating PFT, and voicing it in a interview could also bite you in the as5.

 

[Mike man]

All very true points...

but at least I'm not a D@UC#E BAG

 

[PCL_128]

but at least I'm not a D@UC#E BAG

I beg to differ.

 

[Mike man]

I guess we all know that you were PFT now!

Thanks for the heads up

M.O.

 

[8HourPilot]

Hey PCL,

I assume you are speking up cause (per viewing your profile) you did the Vince route of Gulf/PCL. Hey good for you. You played the game and got a job, and knowing how 9E is growing right now you should have some good. If I am wrong, maybe Colgan or something. Either way nicely done.

However comma, there are many more of us that did this whole thing right, worked our asses off and payed our dues. Some of us did'nt have a big check book. You had the money, good for you.....don't rip on the people that think you bought your job....cause thats exactly what you did.

Punk ass.

 

[bobbysamd]

Paying the TAB = P-F-T

Sure hope these sorts of programs are a dying breed... I was somewhat appauled when I saw how they market this program and the astronomical charges that the student must pay to get into the right seat.

Me, too. Gulfstream will always be Gulfstream, but I kind of liked the idea of a school teaching multi to students in KingAirs, even though it is extremely expensive for the value received.