The End of USAPA is finally upon us

[TWA Dude]

DOH is objective.

You say that as if it's a good thing. Instead of having a judicial system we could just presume all who are charged are guilty and avoid the subjectivity of judges and juries. Of course we don't do it that way because we strive for fairness. DOH may or may not be fair depending on the specific vagaries of each merger.

You're silly points about pilot unity are irreverent rationalizations. All that's needed for pilot unity during SLI's is the integrity to abide by the final result.

 

[Turtle21]

You say that as if it's a good thing. Instead of having a judicial system we could just presume all who are charged are guilty and avoid the subjectivity of judges and juries. Of course we don't do it that way because we strive for fairness. DOH may or may not be fair depending on the specific vagaries of each merger.

You're silly points about pilot unity are irreverent rationalizations. All that's needed for pilot unity during SLI's is the integrity to abide by the final result.

See, you want subjectivity so you can fight about SLI, and maybe win something. I get it. I get it. You don't. Pilots will always fight because they can. Union "leaders" will always proclaim integrity, unity, and more relativistic BS so the members can feel righteous and send them more money to fight the righteous cause. Whatever. Just accept the fact that there will always be fighting if it is feasible to do so. Carry on.

P.S. TWA stopped being a real airline decades ago and anyone who was silly enough to go there or stay there should never be allowed to upgrade to captain, and maybe not even have weekends off as a reserve FO. Geez how stupid can someone be. They deserve huge penalties in any SLI. See, its all justified! But you can spend more money on lawyers to fight back.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Turtle is showing the traits of a a true east "IGM" by pontificating about high minded fairness and unity from his recently upgraded perch on the left. Prior to that it was "USAPA-the best money I've ever spent". I'm sure he'll be popular with the fellow east pilots (stuck as F/O's in a post-Nic world) who made the same sacrifice in pay and benefits to feed the USAPA juggernaut, but never saw it pay off for them.

Yeah, yeah Capt. Popularity will buy them a Starbucks every so often just to prove how generous he is and still looking out for them, sorta.

 

[Turtle21]

Turtle is showing the traits of a a true east "IGM" by pontificating about high minded fairness and unity from his recently upgraded perch on the left. Prior to that it was "USAPA-the best money I've ever spent". I'm sure he'll be popular with the fellow east pilots (stuck as F/O's in a post-Nic world) who made the same sacrifice in pay and benefits to feed the USAPA juggernaut, but never saw it pay off for them.

Yeah, yeah Capt. Popularity will buy them a Starbucks every so often just to prove how generous he is and still looking out for them, sorta.

I'm touched that you judge me popular!

Subjective criteria breads disunity, provides a mechanism for some pilots to be more equal than others, and gives rise to bloated union personnel to craft a semblance of unity.

Pay based on years of experience rather than seat and equipment would do a lot to improve unity, but that won't happen because there is still a need to continue pulling up the ladder.

Cheers

 

[Dornier 335]

Frankly Turtle, underpinning all this is that certain groups have no integrity, and signing a document and agreeing to one thing means.....NOTHING. Zero integrity. You must always check both hands when giving a handshake to an Eastie, the other hand might have "fingers crossed."



Bye Bye---General Lee

Tell us something about your pilot group and the WA and PA pilots, since you like to stick your nose in other people's business. Your credibility -> ZERO!

 

[JohnQ]

Tell us something about your pilot group and the WA and PA pilots, since you like to stick your nose in other people's business. Your credibility -> ZERO!

Your knowledge---less than zero.

Let's see. I know guys hired in the late 70s/early 80s at WAL who were furloughed by that "great" airline for six years. Then they got recalled just prior to the DAL merger in 1987, to get huge jumps in pay and quality of life. Some "screw job" there.

As for PAA, I'm not sure what your point is. I DO know that there were guys hired by PAA in 1968 who were furloughed for 17 years (!), only to be put behind the National guys who were hired a decade later (National and PAA merged in 1980). They finally got back to PAA in the mid-80s, those few who hadn't actually moved on with their life.

DAL could have (and perhaps should have) let PAA, an old airline, with old airplanes, old debt, and old employees--but great route structure--die and just take what they wanted, sort of like Eastern did with the Braniff SA routes, that then AA did to them a few years later! (how many Braniff guys went to EAL? Zero. How many of those EAL pilots made it to AA--zero!). Instead DAL took on a lot of employees, some old A310s (that we flew for less than a year) some old 727s, got rid of the airplanes, kept the employees and the debt, then furloughed "original" DAL guys off the bottom of the list, then let the over 60 pilots come back into the FE seat that the junior original DAL guys were furloughed from! What a "screw job."

DAL has been one of the few airlines ever that has treated acquired employees well and with dignity. Further, our merger with NWA was the greatest and smoothest merger in airline history. I'll take DAL's record over anyone else's.

 

[MCDU]

That is not what pilots at Western or Nwa think happened.

M

 

[JohnQ]

That is not what pilots at Western or Nwa think happened.

M

Every pilot in any merger thinks the universe was out to screw him personally.

I have yet to meet a NWA guy who is that unhappy with the DAL merger, especially given their "Green/Red" dysfunctional history.

I still contend that DAL has had better mergers than any other examples out there, both in the distant past and immediate present.

 

[CavePilot]

Every pilot in any merger thinks the universe was out to screw him personally.

I have yet to meet a NWA guy who is that unhappy with the DAL merger, especially given their "Green/Red" dysfunctional history.

I still contend that DAL has had better mergers than any other examples out there, both in the distant past and immediate present.

The reason it went well with respect to DAL's most recent merge has little to do with the DAL/NWA pilots integrity and sense of fairness and solidarity. It was simply because the two pilot groups had very similar DOH senority list. That's it.

Anytime you put two dissimilar DOH lists together, there will be problems.

You have the same bunch of "individuals" with these East/West "tendencies" at every merge, that just weren't exposed.

 

[JohnQ]

The reason it went well with respect to DAL's most recent merge has little to do with the DAL/NWA pilots integrity and sense of fairness and solidarity. It was simply because the two pilot groups had very similar DOH senority list. That's it.

At best you are only partially correct. We had similar dates of hire AND similar equipment and complementary route structures.

We also had--believe it or not--union leadership that was committed to making sure that the newer combined entity moved forward and emerged stronger than the two smaller ones before. You can't do that when one side refused to honor an agreed-upon process, thereby triggering lawsuits from the other.

Since every merger is its own unique entity, you can never say that any two mergers should be considered equally. DOH should only be one small consideration among many, for any merger, ever.