The End of USAPA is finally upon us

[TWA Dude]

DOH is objective.

You say that as if it's a good thing. Instead of having a judicial system we could just presume all who are charged are guilty and avoid the subjectivity of judges and juries. Of course we don't do it that way because we strive for fairness. DOH may or may not be fair depending on the specific vagaries of each merger.

You're silly points about pilot unity are irreverent rationalizations. All that's needed for pilot unity during SLI's is the integrity to abide by the final result.

 

[Turtle21]

You say that as if it's a good thing. Instead of having a judicial system we could just presume all who are charged are guilty and avoid the subjectivity of judges and juries. Of course we don't do it that way because we strive for fairness. DOH may or may not be fair depending on the specific vagaries of each merger.

You're silly points about pilot unity are irreverent rationalizations. All that's needed for pilot unity during SLI's is the integrity to abide by the final result.

See, you want subjectivity so you can fight about SLI, and maybe win something. I get it. I get it. You don't. Pilots will always fight because they can. Union "leaders" will always proclaim integrity, unity, and more relativistic BS so the members can feel righteous and send them more money to fight the righteous cause. Whatever. Just accept the fact that there will always be fighting if it is feasible to do so. Carry on.

P.S. TWA stopped being a real airline decades ago and anyone who was silly enough to go there or stay there should never be allowed to upgrade to captain, and maybe not even have weekends off as a reserve FO. Geez how stupid can someone be. They deserve huge penalties in any SLI. See, its all justified! But you can spend more money on lawyers to fight back.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Turtle is showing the traits of a a true east "IGM" by pontificating about high minded fairness and unity from his recently upgraded perch on the left. Prior to that it was "USAPA-the best money I've ever spent". I'm sure he'll be popular with the fellow east pilots (stuck as F/O's in a post-Nic world) who made the same sacrifice in pay and benefits to feed the USAPA juggernaut, but never saw it pay off for them.

Yeah, yeah Capt. Popularity will buy them a Starbucks every so often just to prove how generous he is and still looking out for them, sorta.

 

[Turtle21]

Turtle is showing the traits of a a true east "IGM" by pontificating about high minded fairness and unity from his recently upgraded perch on the left. Prior to that it was "USAPA-the best money I've ever spent". I'm sure he'll be popular with the fellow east pilots (stuck as F/O's in a post-Nic world) who made the same sacrifice in pay and benefits to feed the USAPA juggernaut, but never saw it pay off for them.

Yeah, yeah Capt. Popularity will buy them a Starbucks every so often just to prove how generous he is and still looking out for them, sorta.

I'm touched that you judge me popular!

Subjective criteria breads disunity, provides a mechanism for some pilots to be more equal than others, and gives rise to bloated union personnel to craft a semblance of unity.

Pay based on years of experience rather than seat and equipment would do a lot to improve unity, but that won't happen because there is still a need to continue pulling up the ladder.

Cheers

 

[Dornier 335]

Frankly Turtle, underpinning all this is that certain groups have no integrity, and signing a document and agreeing to one thing means.....NOTHING. Zero integrity. You must always check both hands when giving a handshake to an Eastie, the other hand might have "fingers crossed."



Bye Bye---General Lee

Tell us something about your pilot group and the WA and PA pilots, since you like to stick your nose in other people's business. Your credibility -> ZERO!

 

[JohnQ]

Tell us something about your pilot group and the WA and PA pilots, since you like to stick your nose in other people's business. Your credibility -> ZERO!

Your knowledge---less than zero.

Let's see. I know guys hired in the late 70s/early 80s at WAL who were furloughed by that "great" airline for six years. Then they got recalled just prior to the DAL merger in 1987, to get huge jumps in pay and quality of life. Some "screw job" there.

As for PAA, I'm not sure what your point is. I DO know that there were guys hired by PAA in 1968 who were furloughed for 17 years (!), only to be put behind the National guys who were hired a decade later (National and PAA merged in 1980). They finally got back to PAA in the mid-80s, those few who hadn't actually moved on with their life.

DAL could have (and perhaps should have) let PAA, an old airline, with old airplanes, old debt, and old employees--but great route structure--die and just take what they wanted, sort of like Eastern did with the Braniff SA routes, that then AA did to them a few years later! (how many Braniff guys went to EAL? Zero. How many of those EAL pilots made it to AA--zero!). Instead DAL took on a lot of employees, some old A310s (that we flew for less than a year) some old 727s, got rid of the airplanes, kept the employees and the debt, then furloughed "original" DAL guys off the bottom of the list, then let the over 60 pilots come back into the FE seat that the junior original DAL guys were furloughed from! What a "screw job."

DAL has been one of the few airlines ever that has treated acquired employees well and with dignity. Further, our merger with NWA was the greatest and smoothest merger in airline history. I'll take DAL's record over anyone else's.

 

[MCDU]

That is not what pilots at Western or Nwa think happened.

M

 

[JohnQ]

That is not what pilots at Western or Nwa think happened.

M

Every pilot in any merger thinks the universe was out to screw him personally.

I have yet to meet a NWA guy who is that unhappy with the DAL merger, especially given their "Green/Red" dysfunctional history.

I still contend that DAL has had better mergers than any other examples out there, both in the distant past and immediate present.

 

[CavePilot]

Every pilot in any merger thinks the universe was out to screw him personally.

I have yet to meet a NWA guy who is that unhappy with the DAL merger, especially given their "Green/Red" dysfunctional history.

I still contend that DAL has had better mergers than any other examples out there, both in the distant past and immediate present.

The reason it went well with respect to DAL's most recent merge has little to do with the DAL/NWA pilots integrity and sense of fairness and solidarity. It was simply because the two pilot groups had very similar DOH senority list. That's it.

Anytime you put two dissimilar DOH lists together, there will be problems.

You have the same bunch of "individuals" with these East/West "tendencies" at every merge, that just weren't exposed.

 

[JohnQ]

The reason it went well with respect to DAL's most recent merge has little to do with the DAL/NWA pilots integrity and sense of fairness and solidarity. It was simply because the two pilot groups had very similar DOH senority list. That's it.

At best you are only partially correct. We had similar dates of hire AND similar equipment and complementary route structures.

We also had--believe it or not--union leadership that was committed to making sure that the newer combined entity moved forward and emerged stronger than the two smaller ones before. You can't do that when one side refused to honor an agreed-upon process, thereby triggering lawsuits from the other.

Since every merger is its own unique entity, you can never say that any two mergers should be considered equally. DOH should only be one small consideration among many, for any merger, ever.

 

[Turtle21]

At best you are only partially correct. We had similar dates of hire AND similar equipment and complementary route structures.

We also had--believe it or not--union leadership that was committed to making sure that the newer combined entity moved forward and emerged stronger than the two smaller ones before. You can't do that when one side refused to honor an agreed-upon process, thereby triggering lawsuits from the other.

Since every merger is its own unique entity, you can never say that any two mergers should be considered equally. DOH should only be one small consideration among many, for any merger, ever.

You can't even keep your pie hole shut about matters that aren't even you business, and you criticize pilots for speaking up for themselves in matters that are their business.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. If we accept subjective criteria to differentiate pilot seniority then we necessarily accept that pilots will fight. Duh. And then pilots fight about pilots fighting.

 

[TWA Dude]

Just accept the fact that there will always be fighting if it is feasible to do so. Carry on.

I do NOT accept that as a fact. You're just trying to rationalize bad behavior.

 

[Metrojet]

USAPA and their scumbag cheerleaders can rot in hell for all I care. Anybody spewing their BS, crying about "fairness" can go cry to mommy. It will be my pleasure for the rest of my career when one of my formerly East AFO's complains to be about the nic, I will look to my right and squarely...with a smile...tell him or her to go FK themselves.

My version of effective East-centric CRM

Maybe I'll bid CLT Capt just to enjoy the moment that many more times. HA!

Oh c'mon future Captain Becket

Please come to clt and do that!
Or maybe after that u can bid DFW Captain and fly with all those AA f / o's and tell them how first u saved the East and then you saved the ALAMO.

I am quite sure that the seniority will work out for you to do both. Good luck

Metrojet

 

[Turtle21]

I do NOT accept that as a fact. You're just trying to rationalize bad behavior.

Ok, you don't accept reality. Everyone justifies what they are doing. If you oppose it then you call it naughty behavior and if you support it you call it righteous. Whatever.

 

[TWA Dude]

My reality is a jury trial that found USAPA guilty of egregiously violating their DFR. I have no idea where your reality is but it isn't on this planet.

 

[CavePilot]

At best you are only partially correct. We had similar dates of hire AND similar equipment and complementary route structures.

We also had--believe it or not--union leadership that was committed to making sure that the newer combined entity moved forward and emerged stronger than the two smaller ones before. You can't do that when one side refused to honor an agreed-upon process, thereby triggering lawsuits from the other.

Since every merger is its own unique entity, you can never say that any two mergers should be considered equally. DOH should only be one small consideration among many, for any merger, ever.

At best you're a *************************g idiot.

My point was that the similarities at DAL and NWA made for a little cream puff SLI.

I run across pilots from all airlines and they are all pretty much the same. DAL pilots aren't any better. Maybe more so to the tightass side of the scale, but that's about the only difference. Don't give me this "our leadership crap" you cool aid drinker.

 

[Turtle21]

My reality is a jury trial that found USAPA guilty of egregiously violating their DFR. I have no idea where your reality is but it isn't on this planet.

What jury?

Oh yeah the righteous jury that was led on a goose chase by a naughty judge that didn't have any business meddling.

And yeah PHX is its own planet.

 

[General Lee]

What jury?

Oh yeah the righteous jury that was led on a goose chase by a naughty judge that didn't have any business meddling.

And yeah PHX is its own planet.

AHAHAHAHAHA! Hey, next time, don't sign up for BINDING arbitration if you aren't going to accept the award. You like to blame other people, like the judge for "meddling" (??), when it could have been solved had your group just kept it's word. You agree to something, you follow it. Your group has ZERO integrity.


Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[Bringupthebird]

And yeah PHX is its own planet.

Tell that to the carolina judge that sent USAPA packing too.

And yet you still support USAPA's wasting money. Call it Weasel Bucks (and the count is what $20 million so far?).

Now Hummel sends out a slick brochure to tell you about the retro and signing bonus that will be delayed or denied by their childish antics.

They brag about the $16 Billion in added benefits from the MOU, but they fail to tell you how much they've cost everyone over and above the Weasel Bucks.

 

[JohnQ]

At best you're a *************************g idiot.

My point was that the similarities at DAL and NWA made for a little cream puff SLI.

I run across pilots from all airlines and they are all pretty much the same. DAL pilots aren't any better. Maybe more so to the tightass side of the scale, but that's about the only difference. Don't give me this "our leadership crap" you cool aid drinker.

Nice attitude. Hey, if you think and desire that pilots should always dwell in bitterness and bile for their entire careers, always muttering how they got screwed by the merger, everything is always someone else's fault, etc, rock on. If you are bound and determined to be a miserable ******************************bag, no one is going to be able to stop you.

The DAL pilots are not inherently better or worse than any other group. We did take a better and more "enlightened" approach to our DAL/NWA merger than any other prior group has, and we have benefited from that. Rather than be reactive and angry, we were proactive, secured real benefits, and were an integral part of a fairly good process. It was not just similar demographics that established a good end result. We were an instrumental part of a good end result due to our proactive "think outside the tired old box and try something different for once" attitude. I know that fact drives you berzerk (for some reason, don't know why), but that is a fact.