The Dreaded Training Contract

[Say Again Over]

Exactly! :beer:

 

[mtnmama]

I am about to finish a 2-year contract with my current employer... the job for some would've been a dream. And, on paper it is-- great pay, upgrade, never have to actually work, etc. In reality, the job wasn't what I thought it would be. Although many people have told me I could probably break the contract without incident, I have chosen to fufill the agreement I signed. My last day will be the day that contract ends, though-- I am not staying one extra day! What I learned from this: I will never sign a contract with any employer again. Good luck to you!

 

[Say Again Over]

Never is a long time, good luck to you!

 

[Galaxy]

thanks for the good and the bad comments. Ethics? trying to better myself. is that wrong? I'm not killing, stealing, beating or raping to do it. So whats the big deal? If the rolls where reversed and the company needed to get rid of me for the better of the company...i'm 100% confident that they would terminate our connection.

It is not so much about the ethics of a contract. Its about the quality person you are. In this day and age of internet you can ask a simple question here on FI about a company prior to interviewing and you will get the good, bad, and the ugly on them. Most companies that have contracts have them for a reason-folks take the training and run. Liklely this is a cause in management or working conditions that need to be corrected by management. Don't hold your breath on that one..
Fact is.. you researched this company, you applied, then interviewed and trained with them and even signed thier contract. Now 5 months into the job you want out. What it tells me if I were interviewing you and hired you I am taking the risk of sending you to get typed on a small jet because we don't do contracts-if you dont really want to be here then we dont want you here either. However after 5 months you feel you have mastered your position, your aircraft and there are no more challenges for you. I fear that if I sent you to school on a small jet it would not be long before you wanted to "better yourself" and move up to a larger jet. Now I get to go to the CEO and CFO and explain my decision in hiring you.
I have never heard of any company paying your obligation off to hire you. There are plenty of names in the resume stack without bills for me to pay.

"If the rolls where reversed and the company needed to get rid of me for the better of the company...i'm 100% confident that they would terminate our connection-"
This comment just screams that the company WOULD be better off without you...What are you giving to the company? Nothing?
I understand it might be a crappy job but why not make the best of it for the terms that you signed for. Be the best employee they have and when you leave they can then wonder why they can't retain quality employees like you instead of the ole' these pilot come and go, do the bare minimum and collect the check.
Good luck in your decision and remember that aviation is a small world-don't burn bridges..

 

[freighthumper]

thanks for the good and the bad comments. Ethics? trying to better myself. is that wrong? I'm not killing, stealing, beating or raping to do it. So whats the big deal? If the rolls where reversed and the company needed to get rid of me for the better of the company...i'm 100% confident that they would terminate our connection.

As far as ethics go...lying and breaking the contract counts as bad ethics.

 

[Jpilot23]

As far as ethics go...lying and breaking the contract counts as bad ethics.

when have i lyed? and who says that breaking a contract is bad ethics?

 

[slickmagneto]

the nice thing about a contract is if you wanna leave then pay up and no hard feelings.

Also it might depend what state your in but I believe training contracts are illegal in many states and aren't worth the paper they're written on.

There is a world of difference in a "Training Contract" vs. a "Promissory Note."

I'm not a Lawyer but I have two friends that were sued by their former employer and both friends lost in court on Promissory Notes. They told me it was the same as if they had gone to a bank and borrowed the money for any type of purchase. Two different judges ruled that it was a debt that had to be repayed.

A Training Contract may or may not be enforceable in certain states.

One is apples the other is oranges.
If you are serious about leaving I suggest you Run to the nearest lawyer and seek his advise. A judgement against you may keep you from being hired by any company because it will show up on your credit history.

 

[Publishers]

The art of professionalism is doing the right thing, the detailed thing, the best you can thing, when it is not a big deal and no one is watching.

 

[NW_Pilot]

Before I sign any contract I alway have a legal opinion done on the contract, contracts are negotiable! Alway leave an easy out that you can afford! Some great advice from people here.... You signed it stick with it! or full-fill it and buy it out. Make sure you get a recipet!!!

 

[freighthumper]

when have i lyed? and who says that breaking a contract is bad ethics?

When you signed the contract you said you would stay for 2 years, the second you leave before the contract is up you are a liar. Im sure if they have a contract they also asked you if you would stay for the duration of the contract face to face. Seeing that you got the job, im sure you told them yes. You did this as well as tell them you would stay by signing a legal(perhaps semi) document. This would show a lack of ethics on your part to any future potential employers. I would also be willing to bet that someone sometime has screwed them in a situation like this. Breaking a contract is not the way you want to make your resume stand out from the rest. Is this job oportunity THAT good? I seriously doubt it, especially if you are just trying to get into the regionals a little earlier.

 

[TxPilot0878]

Bud, The decision is very simple! I almost laugh at your question but that is because of my history with this exact thing. The thing is that you will do what you choose....you are looking for support in your decision to jump ship after signing a contract.....YOU WILL NEVER EVER EVER get that on this board...the thing is most of us who didn't have DADDYS WALLET....have been through a smilar situation. If you bail you ARE LIABLE and will at least be responsible for part of the (pro-rated) contract.
Save yourself years and years of heartache and do what is right....if you do leave ship then be ready to expalin why....because no one is interested in hiring a person who couldn't stick out a one year obligation THAT HE SIGNED!!!! I have flown for companies that had duct tape on their jets...how ever hard you think it is.....it could be a lot worse.
If you bail....chances are you will find that out first hand!

Best of Luck,

Tex

 

[FlyingMoose]

When you signed the contract you said you would stay for 2 years, the second you leave before the contract is up you are a liar. Im sure if they have a contract they also asked you if you would stay for the duration of the contract face to face. Seeing that you got the job, im sure you told them yes. You did this as well as tell them you would stay by signing a legal(perhaps semi) document. This would show a lack of ethics on your part to any future potential employers. I would also be willing to bet that someone sometime has screwed them in a situation like this. Breaking a contract is not the way you want to make your resume stand out from the rest. Is this job oportunity THAT good? I seriously doubt it, especially if you are just trying to get into the regionals a little earlier.

I definitely disagree with this opinion. Virtually all training contracts are based on the premise that you will reimburse or pay the employer a specified amount if you voluntarily resign from employment in a specified term. There is no promise or obligation (legally, morally, or ethically) that you are giving to stay that entire term, just that you will fulfill the terms of the contract if you leave (i.e. pay whatever amount is applicable); that's the whole point of the contract. So simply identifying someone as a liar for not working for the full term of the contract is not only inappropriate but also ignorant.

Personally, as I stated before, I feel a valid contract or agreement should place obligations on all interested parties. It is up to you to insure that the language in the contract is clear and protects your interests as well. You should definitely make sure that it includes language that would void the contract if the employer changes the conditions of your employment.

But, regardless, the contract is not a promise to stay for a specified term, only an agreement to do what ever is specified in the contract if you don't stay for that specified term.

 

[FlyingMoose]

I have never heard of any company paying your obligation off to hire you. There are plenty of names in the resume stack without bills for me to pay.

"If the rolls where reversed and the company needed to get rid of me for the better of the company...i'm 100% confident that they would terminate our connection-"
This comment just screams that the company WOULD be better off without you...What are you giving to the company? Nothing?
..

Maybe you haven't heard of it, but it is not that uncommon for a company (particularly good corporate departments and private owner/operators) to do just that. I know of a number of instances.

Your second statement is plain non-sense. There are plenty of times companies will get rid of one of their best, most proficient, most experienced, professional, etc. pilots for a variety of reasons if they choose. Sometimes economics, sometimes politics, but certainly not always justified. You honestly can't be suggesting that anyone who gets furloughed, laid-off, or simply terminated must not be a valuable employee. I don't know you and I certainly could be misreading your intent, but your comment just screams of someone that would be nothing more than a "company yes-man" and does what ever his boss "commands" right or wrong.... or maybe someone who has done just that to get into a management position and expects the same from all his "subordinants".

 

[Daytonaflyer]

I know how you feel. I too signed a training contract with my current employer when I was hired. Before I signed it, I was told that I would have a certain work schedule, and I was even given the schedule on paper during initial groundschool.
Then, half way through the contract, my employer decided that they were going to change my work schedule to a much less desirable one which was never discussed or agreed upon by any of the pilots including myself.
Unfortunately the training contract did not contain any details about the schedule, therefore, I do not know if I could successfully argue that point in court.
If it came down to it, I suppose I would argue that I never would have signed the work contract in the first place had I known that the company was going to change my schedule like this. It has adversely affected my personal life and forced me to work more hours for the same pay.
There is a very good chance that you will have to pay the full amount of the contract. If, however, your employer has substantially changed your working conditions (like mine has) you may be able to argue that in court successfully.
Probably the best thing you can do if you decide to quit is talk to your current employer and ask if they'd be willing to negotiate with you on an acceptable amount to get you out of the contract. It will most likely cost your employer a few thousand dollars for their legal team to sue you in court, so they may be willing to work with you. Don't expect them to be happy about it though.

 

[lawfly]

A promissory note is generally associated with a loan. A training contract is generally associated with the cost of training, and forgiving same in exchange for a specified duration of employment, with, for example, pro rata liability if the employee leaves sooner. An employment contract can be for a specific length of time and might consider, from the company's point of view, the cost of training a replacement. It gives the employee the benefit of not being merely at will and, at least in the abstract, places obligations on both the employer and the employee (if unionized, a collective bargaining agreement). Hard to comment on any written contract without first reading it. If you sign a contract intending ab initio to breach it, i.e., never intending to fulfill it, you could be liable for more than a breach of contract, but proof of such intent is usually difficult. (unless maybe you post it on the internet?). Hey, good luck.

 

[Say Again Over]

Txpilot, what are you smoking, Flying moose has it right in my opinion, the contract is a two way street, some poor guy needs a job so he signs whatever to get the job, what happens if the job is no good, does he stay there to be a real QUALITY guy? The fact is, many companies simply have it in place without any intention to come after pilots. The poster is simply looking for advice from people that may have been in his position, what he gets is a bunch of hypocritical bs. Dude, if the contract is legal you may be faced with repayment of some sort and some legal fees, do what is best for you, no subsequent employer is going to have a clue about a contract at your current employer.

 

[pilot754]

Training Agreements

I don't mind what you all will say about my post!
Training agreements have been tried in court and don't have leverage.
These companies put it their to scare you. In state of CA and many others have very severe work statutes (LAWS) to protect the working people. I my self may end up at a 135 outfit to start since I want out of instructing. They want me to sign one as well. Will I maybe.........but, if a company has you sign a training agreement as condition of employment for say 1 yr. period either prorated or not and you wish to leave inside of that year and break it. In the eyes of the law in most states it is considered servitude. Furthermore, like I who live and reside in state of CA and may work in NM or elsewhere. Will maintain my CA as permanent abode a training agreement will and won't be liable. To the original poster or who ever has questions feel free to write me [email protected] (I myself have not had to break but know others and have seen myself how some do it). So if you have to sin just to get job do so and if you have to break it do so! I don't advocate it but we do what each needs to make it in our world today!

Take Care,

 

[Galaxy]

Maybe you haven't heard of it, but it is not that uncommon for a company (particularly good corporate departments and private owner/operators) to do just that. I know of a number of instances.

Your second statement is plain non-sense. There are plenty of times companies will get rid of one of their best, most proficient, most experienced, professional, etc. pilots for a variety of reasons if they choose. Sometimes economics, sometimes politics, but certainly not always justified. You honestly can't be suggesting that anyone who gets furloughed, laid-off, or simply terminated must not be a valuable employee. I don't know you and I certainly could be misreading your intent, but your comment just screams of someone that would be nothing more than a "company yes-man" and does what ever his boss "commands" right or wrong.... or maybe someone who has done just that to get into a management position and expects the same from all his "subordinants".

Ahhhh, No, I have never heard of it but I am sure there have been instances of a company or owner paying off the training debt of a prospective employee. I am sure if you needed that last Hansa Jet pilot or something. I am also sure it is included with a statement such as he/she flew with so and so in the AF. I have known a company to buy an employees home if it did not sell within a specified amount of time-perhaps that is what you refer to?
You must not be doing the hiring in your company. Business wise it does not make sense and if you have ever gone to your CEO to explain who you want to hire and why is this person going to cost you money up front for thier legal issues. That usually raises a flag for them. I can already hear the question now.. "Are there no qualified pilots for the job that we have to go with this candidate?". If you have ever posted a job on the web believe me you will have a ton of resumes on your desk. With almost 70% being current and qualified. Then what do you say? In his case lets hear the truth-he has been at his job for 5 months and he wants to better his career so he has applied here for a position. What question do you think would be next?


The second statement-was his statement- The company would get rid of him to better the company. That is not the same as a furlough or layoff-besides all contracts I have ever seen have a furlough or layoff clause. You mentioned terminated-How many valuable employees have been terminated?
As for the last comment- I have never had to even wonder if I am a company Yes man. I have never been asked to do anything that was illegal, immoral or otherwise. I have done my job-which is what I get paid for, and I do it happily. Do I expect people I work with to do thier job? Yes, it is not too much to ask. But then again-we pay at the top of NBAA standards and do not require contracts from pilots. We also tend to take mature well qualified professional pilots that will not run to the next shiney jet that pulls up on a ramp to better thier career.

Bottom line is...Do your research on any company you plan to work for and don't get so excited because you are going from a CFI to a king air that you forget to read the paper you signed. If you sign a contract either fulfill the terms or pay the fees listed in the contract.


To the original poster..What have you decided?

 

[Daytonaflyer]

I don't mind what you all will say about my post!
Training agreements have been tried in court and don't have leverage.
These companies put it their to scare you. In state of CA and many others have very severe work statutes (LAWS) to protect the working people. I my self may end up at a 135 outfit to start since I want out of instructing. They want me to sign one as well. Will I maybe.........but, if a company has you sign a training agreement as condition of employment for say 1 yr. period either prorated or not and you wish to leave inside of that year and break it. In the eyes of the law in most states it is considered servitude. Furthermore, like I who live and reside in state of CA and may work in NM or elsewhere. Will maintain my CA as permanent abode a training agreement will and won't be liable. To the original poster or who ever has questions feel free to write me [email protected] (I myself have not had to break but know others and have seen myself how some do it). So if you have to sin just to get job do so and if you have to break it do so! I don't advocate it but we do what each needs to make it in our world today!

Pilot754,
I personally know of at least two people who have broken training contracts, been sued, and lost the lawsuit. One was a pilot in TX and the other worked for an AZ company, but lived in Nashville. Not only did they both have to pay the entire amount of the training contract, but they had to pay the attorneys fees as well.
Perhaps CA has laws against training contracts, but many states do not. It does not matter which state you "claim" your permanent residence; the state that you pay income tax to is probably where the court will consider your residence. If there is no state income tax, then it will be where the company is headquartered.
If you're going to break the contract, you'd better have damn good reason to do so and be able to prove that in court with paper documentation.

 

[Corona]

All the more reason not to sign one-sided contracts. I did sign one "training contract" that was so loosely worded it would not stand up in court (I worked well-past the 1-year mark, though). I didn't care at the time because I knew a lot about the company, good and bad.

I'd be happy to sign any contract from a company I didn't know so well as long as it also protected me, specifically including work conditions, pay and benefits and possibly even severance. A contract by definition protects both sides in an agreement and must have points where both parties may declare it void. Most of these contracts are just legal straitjackets that border on indentured servitude. I can't imagine signing a promissory note, though. It's appalling to me that people jump into legal obligations without any legal education whatsoever.

The OP needs to log off FlightInfo and contact an attorney. Quit trying to hash around ideas with people here. Nobody on FI is a qualified attorney in these matters & you are wasting your time posting on this subject.

C