The DL TA

[General Lee]

Kudos to you General. I hope the rest of the DAL pilot group feels the same way. Time to stop the seat-creep that's been going on for years in these scope clauses. Someone has to draw the line at 70 seats to stop the erosion of this profession.

I think most of the people left at DL agree with that stance. We can see the gradual transfer of routes and planes, in reality an outsourcing of our jobs. I doubt a TA would pass with larger RJs.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[On Your Six]

VOTE NO FOR SCOPE CREEP... Keep the limit at 70 seats. USAirways/AWA will incorporate E190s into mainline just like Jet Blue. They are setting the precedent.

Another question: why doesn't Delta management offer J4J for the furloughed pilots like they do at USAirways, UAL, etc. with their regional partners? What's up with that???????????

 

[Piper877]

They are setting the precedent.

Exactly right. The future of the industry is in the Delta pilot's hands right now. Good luck guys.

 

["GO AROUND"]

VOTE NO FOR SCOPE CREEP... Keep the limit at 70 seats. USAirways/AWA will incorporate E190s into mainline just like Jet Blue. They are setting the precedent.

Another question: why doesn't Delta management offer J4J for the furloughed pilots like they do at USAirways, UAL, etc. with their regional partners? What's up with that???????????

Cause we would tell them to pound sand! That's what's up with that. We hired as many DAL furloughs that applied at ASA with no restrictions unlike other carriers. To bypass longevity and seniority for airframes and call it J4J is BS. They can keep the airplanes cause we don't need them that bad. Should have made one list back in the day and made it beneficial to all but that didn't happen.

 

[regionaltard]

Exactly right. The future of the industry is in the Delta pilot's hands right now. Good luck guys.

Let's just hope they do a better job of it than they did the last time they found themselves in that position. The absolute best Delta can hope to accomplish is to put the brakes on what they set in motion ten years ago.

 

[No Delay]

I know everytime a plane goes to the regional...it is one less plane for the mainline and essentially hurts the industry.

But...do you guys really think voting down a TA that has a small amount of scope relief will actually bring growth to the mainline? I don't see that happening.

The cost efficiency between a 76 seater and a 70 seater is not great enough to justify placing that 76'er at mainline. The operating cost between DCI and mainline far exceeds any cost savings of the 76 seat aircraft.


Side Note For General Lee: I see a lot of people saying they do not like you. I just wanted to say...although you do sound like a broken record sometimes and I do disagree with you on some things...I don't dislike you!

You have a right to voice your opinion as much as anyone.

 

[surplus1]

Well, the way I see it, I hope the DAL guys hold the line on scope. This means more mainline jobs in the future and also helps prevent the pay erosion of regional guys flying 50/70/90 seaters at 50 seat pay. Lets say Delta does give up scope and Mesa is awarded the new 90 seat flying at CA wages of about $60 an hour. How does that help regional or mainline guys out? All that does is pad the wallet of Delta management and Mesa management.
Just my $.02

Your rhetoric is interesting but your $.02 doesn't happen to agree with the facts.

At any regional, a CRJ-900 would be the most senior airplane. It would expectedy be flown by the most senior captains. All of those would probably have at least or more than 12 years with the company; probably more. The regional rates do NOT cap at 12 years.

The 12 yr rates are:

Rep = $92 (E-190) Mesa = $82.00 (CRJ-900), SKYW (who flys it for 50-seat pay) $78

The other "regionals" all fly the CRJ-700 or E-170. Their 12 yr rates are

ASA $86 (CRJ-700); REP $84 (E-170), PSA $80 (CRJ-700); CMR $79, (CRJ-700);

Two "majors" have rates for the E-190 but only one of them actually has the airplane. In any case, it would be the most junior airplane with captains with about only 3 yrs. seniority (all of which are now FO's or could turn out to be new hires at 1st yr. pay rate).

The captain's 12-yr cap rate for the E-190 at USAirways (which has zero) is $95. At JetBlue it is $89. Delta pilots proposed to fly it for an amount slightly more than JetBlue but less than USAirways.

The 3-yr rate at JetBlue is $74. At USAirways it is $82.

Keep in mind that if you move from a regional to one of those "majors" you will be moving as an FO, not as a captain. If you get hired off the street as a captain, the 1st yr rate is $71 at JetBlue and $79 at USAirways. Only a babe in the woods would give up his longevity and senior and become furlough fodder for that.

Since the rates at JetBlue and USAirways (and the proposed DAL) are all the maximum rate for a 100-seat airplane (not for a 76 or 79 seat airplane) I simply is NOT TRUE that the "majors" would be paying more for the same airplane. In fact they are paying LESS!

The race to the bottom has been won, but the victor is not MESA or any other regional. It is JetBlue, Delta and USAirways (I don't know what NWA new rates are for that equipment).

If you want to move to a "major" to fly the same airplane for less money, that's fine with me. If the Delta pilots want to destroy their company over that, that's fine with me too.

However, I'm a little tired of the BS about regional's lowering the bar for the majors. The fact is that the majors are the ones who have forced the regionals to lower their wages. The first to do it was USAirways. Followed by JetBlue and offered (I have no idea of what's in their TA) by Delta.

Every bit of the scope turd and all the associated problems can be laid squarely at the feet of ALPA and the major airline pilots who run it.

The bar isn't lower because of regional pilots. It is lower because of ALPA policies, all of which were put in place and maintained by major airline pilots.

Call a spade a spade and stop drinking Kool Aid.

 

[General Lee]

Your rhetoric is interesting but your $.02 doesn't happen to agree with the facts.

At any regional, a CRJ-900 would be the most senior airplane. It would expectedy be flown by the most senior captains. All of those would probably have at least or more than 12 years with the company; probably more. The regional rates do NOT cap at 12 years.

The 12 yr rates are:

Rep = $92 (E-190) Mesa = $82.00 (CRJ-900), SKYW (who flys it for 50-seat pay) $78

The other "regionals" all fly the CRJ-700 or E-170. Their 12 yr rates are

ASA $86 (CRJ-700); REP $84 (E-170), PSA $80 (CRJ-700); CMR $79, (CRJ-700);

Two "majors" have rates for the E-190 but only one of them actually has the airplane. In any case, it would be the most junior airplane with captains with about only 3 yrs. seniority (all of which are now FO's or could turn out to be new hires at 1st yr. pay rate).

The captain's 12-yr cap rate for the E-190 at USAirways (which has zero) is $95. At JetBlue it is $89. Delta pilots proposed to fly it for an amount slightly more than JetBlue but less than USAirways.

The 3-yr rate at JetBlue is $74. At USAirways it is $82.

Keep in mind that if you move from a regional to one of those "majors" you will be moving as an FO, not as a captain. If you get hired off the street as a captain, the 1st yr rate is $71 at JetBlue and $79 at USAirways.

Since the rates at JetBlue and USAirways (and the proposed DAL) are all the maximum rate for a 100-seat airplane (not for a 76 or 79 seat airplane) I simply is NOT TRUE that the "majors" would be paying more for the same airplane. In fact they are paying LESS!

The race to the bottom has been won, but the victor is not MESA or any other regional. It is JetBlue, Delta and USAirways (I don't know what NWA new rates are for that equipment).

If you want to move to a "major" to fly the same airplane for less money, that's fine with me. If the Delta pilots want to destroy their company over that, that's fine with me too.

However, I'm a little tired of the BS about regional's lowering the bar for the majors. The fact is that the majors are the ones who have forced the regionals to lower their wages. The first to do it was USAirways. Followed by JetBlue and offered (I have no idea of what's in their TA) by Delta.

Every bit of the scope turd and all the associated problems can be laid squarely at the feet of ALPA and the major airline pilots who run it.

The bar isn't lower because of regional pilots. It is lower because of ALPA policies, all of which were put in place and maintained by major airline pilots.

Call a spade a spade and stop drinking Kool Aid.

Thanks to SkyWest pilots allowing their company to fly jets from 50 seats to 99 seats at one rate, Comair now does the same. I would say that SkyWest changed the regional industry at that point, and unfortunately Comair had to follow with a judge looking over them. (a fact SkyWest did NOT have) If DL mainline got 100 seaters, most likely fairly senior pilots (10-12 years at DL) would bid left seat initially (like they did at Delta Express with the 737-200s) because a new aircraft usually has problems starting up due to lack of crews, and those already there would get plenty of greenslips and good schedules since there would be a lack of reserve lines and hence more line holders.(due to training etc) That would mean it would be possible that DL would pay top rate for their Captains on an E190 for example, and the FOs would be returning furloughs in a fair and just world. The pilots DL would expect to fly in the left seat of those planes would actually move up the ladder on the 767 or INTL 767, and keep their same pay rates, not cutting them by moving down to a 100 seater. Any returning furloughs would fill those right seats, and any new growth in larger aircraft would allow them to bid up and newhires to come to DL. That is how it should work. I won't vote for a TA that doesn't include a plan like that. Not many would. Count on it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[benjakes]

Surplus gets it.

ALPA acts like a super-agent for star athletes (legacy pilots), not as a representative for all pilots. Wake up people, your union is killing your industry. Allmost all of your issues are because of terrible union leadership and business practices.

 

[MONKEY]

general lee

I along with about 75% of the people on this board can't stand your attitude. You have been saying for some time that there will be no movement on scope. Now you are saying probably no movement. It's your attitude that everyone hates. As for me, I couldn't care less if scope is loosened or not. But be a man, stand by what you have been saying for months. If scope is loosened, you slink away in shame and never post again. If it is not loosened then I go away. Either way you are rid of me for good. Problem is, you know deep down inside that it will be loosened, that's why you won't agree to my proposal. I'm sure you will try to make light of this post and play it off like a joke, but I'm serious. You talk a big game, now it's time to back it up, or you will be seen as a loser with a big mouth but nothing to back it.

 

[WSurf]

No, Yes and Yes!

 

[General Lee]

I along with about 75% of the people on this board can't stand your attitude. You have been saying for some time that there will be no movement on scope. Now you are saying probably no movement. It's your attitude that everyone hates. As for me, I couldn't care less if scope is loosened or not. But be a man, stand by what you have been saying for months. If scope is loosened, you slink away in shame and never post again. If it is not loosened then I go away. Either way you are rid of me for good. Problem is, you know deep down inside that it will be loosened, that's why you won't agree to my proposal. I'm sure you will try to make light of this post and play it off like a joke, but I'm serious. You talk a big game, now it's time to back it up, or you will be seen as a loser with a big mouth but nothing to back it.

I honestly don't care what you think. Really, I don't. I am on these boards because I enjoy the debate and sometimes learn something new or learn new info about what is going on. That's it. There are some people I do enjoy talking to, and I PM them mostly. I will continue to give my opinions on any subject in any forum. Count on it. If you don't like it, please place me on ignore. I don't mind at all.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[737 Pylt]

Some very valid points

Your rhetoric is interesting but your $.02 doesn't happen to agree with the facts.

Just because its YOUR opinion, does not make it facts!

At any regional, a CRJ-900 would be the most senior airplane. It would expectedy be flown by the most senior captains. All of those would probably have at least or more than 12 years with the company; probably more. The regional rates do NOT cap at 12 years.

Very valid point!

The 12 yr rates are:

Rep = $92 (E-190) Mesa = $82.00 (CRJ-900), SKYW (who flys it for 50-seat pay) $78

The other "regionals" all fly the CRJ-700 or E-170. Their 12 yr rates are

ASA $86 (CRJ-700); REP $84 (E-170), PSA $80 (CRJ-700); CMR $79, (CRJ-700);

Pathetic pay rates. All Negotiated by their RESPECTIVE MEC.....Nothing gets approved without the MEC of that particular airline!

Two "majors" have rates for the E-190 but only one of them actually has the airplane. In any case, it would be the most junior airplane with captains with about only 3 yrs. seniority (all of which are now FO's or could turn out to be new hires at 1st yr. pay rate).

I have to agree with you there....Have you noticed they're knocking down the door to get on with JB because of the fast upgrade!

The captain's 12-yr cap rate for the E-190 at USAirways (which has zero) is $95. At JetBlue it is $89. Delta pilots proposed to fly it for an amount slightly more than JetBlue but less than USAirways.

Again A rate negotiated by the DMEC

The 3-yr rate at JetBlue is $74. At USAirways it is $82.

Keep in mind that if you move from a regional to one of those "majors" you will be moving as an FO, not as a captain. If you get hired off the street as a captain, the 1st yr rate is $71 at JetBlue and $79 at USAirways. Only a babe in the woods would give up his longevity and senior and become furlough fodder for that.

Maybe, maybe not....I think you are having a difficult time understanding that mainline growth means growth for the feeders as well. If all the growth is only at the regional/feeder level, how much growth before it caps out?!

Since the rates at JetBlue and USAirways (and the proposed DAL) are all the maximum rate for a 100-seat airplane (not for a 76 or 79 seat airplane) I simply is NOT TRUE that the "majors" would be paying more for the same airplane. In fact they are paying LESS!

I can't argue with that fact....Our objective is to get the aircraft on the property and then negotiate a BETTER pay rate down the line. JB does not have that option as they do NOT have a union.

The race to the bottom has been won, but the victor is not MESA or any other regional. It is JetBlue, Delta and USAirways (I don't know what NWA new rates are for that equipment).

I see you don't mention CMR and thier promise of new aircraft for concessions in all that.....

If you want to move to a "major" to fly the same airplane for less money, that's fine with me. If the Delta pilots want to destroy their company over that, that's fine with me too.

See the above statement re: growth at mainline vs. regional/feeders..

However, I'm a little tired of the BS about regional's lowering the bar for the majors. The fact is that the majors are the ones who have forced the regionals to lower their wages. The first to do it was USAirways. Followed by JetBlue and offered (I have no idea of what's in their TA) by Delta.

Again, why is it you fail to mention CMR and their concessions to get new aircraft. Didn't you guys screw over your ASA brethren by doing that??
How about the fact that SKY is flying 90 seat aircraft for 50 seat wages???
Why not mention that.....Is it because its a lot easier to target the legacy pilots, especially the greedy evil DL pilots!

Every bit of the scope turd and all the associated problems can be laid squarely at the feet of ALPA and the major airline pilots who run it.

The bar isn't lower because of regional pilots. It is lower because of ALPA policies, all of which were put in place and maintained by major airline pilots.

Call a spade a spade and stop drinking Kool Aid.

Take it up with the individual MEC's
737

 

[Soverytired]

No point. Just making an observation.

Pathetic pay rates. All Negotiated by their RESPECTIVE MEC.....Nothing gets approved without the MEC of that particular airline!



I737

(I hasten to point out that DW at ALPA national has VETO AUTHORITY over any contract negotiated by local MEC's. . . . and has been known to use it. Just ask CCAir. . . . .)

 

[strega7]

How about the fact that SKY is flying 90 seat aircraft for 50 seat wages???

SkyWest does not fly any 90 seaters. Mostly 50's and 66's with a few 70's.

 

[johnsonrod]

I along with about 75% of the people on this board can't stand your attitude. You have been saying for some time that there will be no movement on scope. Now you are saying probably no movement. It's your attitude that everyone hates. As for me, I couldn't care less if scope is loosened or not. But be a man, stand by what you have been saying for months. If scope is loosened, you slink away in shame and never post again. If it is not loosened then I go away. Either way you are rid of me for good. Problem is, you know deep down inside that it will be loosened, that's why you won't agree to my proposal. I'm sure you will try to make light of this post and play it off like a joke, but I'm serious. You talk a big game, now it's time to back it up, or you will be seen as a loser with a big mouth but nothing to back it.

You sound like a complete idiot. Try not to drink and type... Let's pray that scope is not loosened so that we can eventually make the jump up to a higher pay grade some day as opposed to bringing the pay grades from the mainline down to regional levels. Doesn't that make sense? I think too many people like Monkey are just too lazy to get off their a$$es and apply.

 

[FDJ2]

Rumor I've been hearing is that the scope relief is tied to mainline growth. We'll see I guess.
737

Where have we heard that before?

 

[Heavy Set]

Any provisions made for the 400+ furloughed pilots at Delta? Love to hear some details around that on Wednesday. Everyone seems to forget the furloughees...

 

[737 Pylt]

Where have we heard that before?

FDJ2:
Its just rumors. Friend of mine on the 88 flew with a capt. who had Lee Moak on the JS and supposedly they were talking about the TA.....I don't believe anything until I see it on paper!

Any provisions made for the 400+ furloughed pilots at Delta? Love to hear some details around that on Wednesday. Everyone seems to forget the furloughees...

Heavy.....According to the rumors (and thats all it is right now) all furloughed pilots would be recalled. Again, its all tied to growth.
737

 

[General Lee]

Where have we heard that before?

Until the Iran War. Then, out of nowhere, the company will give us Forced Manure 2--and say those 76 seaters could actually fit 90 onboard, and with oil at $100 a barrel, they need every seat possible. When we whimper that they said they wouldn't do that (like the PBL--Pre BK letter that their lawyers now say doesn't count....) they tell us to GRIEVE IT. No way.


Bye Bye--General Lee