The DL TA

[General Lee]

50-99 seats was approved by our pilot group shortly after Sept. 11, United had just filed Chapter 11 and Delta had just told us that we were fired, unless we could cut our costs by 20%. It was suppose to be basically an 18 month extention of our existing agreement and I for one (and I suspect a lot of others as well) figured it was a bad time to try to fight for industry leading pay and that perhaps things would be better in 18 months. We made a mistake. We made a mistake because we didn't anticipate a three year bankruptcy at United. We didn't anticipate that the industry would still be in the ********************ter three years later. We didn't anticipate that Delta would file for bankrupcy last year. We didn't anticipate a lot of things, but we weren't the only ones. I think most people thought that this was just another downturn in a cyclical industry. Delta did (both pilots and management); their strategy (MGNT) was to hunker down, mortgage the farm and wait it out, just like they always did. Didn't work this time. Come to find out that this time is different; LCC's and oil $70 a barrel. The past is history and the future ain't going to look like the past. What's it going to look like? I don't know and we didn't know three years ago either. At the time we made that concession we believed our survival was at stake. Brad Holt said, "Deal me an Ace." He has played it like a joker. At that time we didn't have any planes larger than 50 seats and as far as I knew we weren't getting any, Scope was still intact at both United and Delta so, so what if the compay wants a 50-99 seat rate. A moot issue. There is also a rate for 100 plus seats, we don't have any of those so, so what? We're not geting any, just ask General Lee.
To catagorically demonize the SKYW pilots for a the decision we made back then requires a willful ignorance of the facts and history. The SKYW pilot group isn't catagorically different than any other pilot group. Jerry doesn't just hire stupid people. What is different at SKYW is the the experience the pilot group has with their relationship with management. ANY other pilot group in our shoes WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING!

Peace or GFYS, it's up to you. I don't care.

The break down was this----the top 1/4 of the pilot group voted NOPE, because they could see that they should be paid for what they are worth. The junior Captains (the next 1/4) voted for growth, because they had short term goals, and wanted more lines and maybe a base change. All of the FOs voted for growth, so they could move up the ladder, and they didn't care too much about the pay since they would make it up at Fedex. Those were the demographics, and they sold common sense that the senior guys knew about for growth that will in reality keep them at SkyWest longer, since it could take away mainline jobs. Sad but true, and this is according to my SkyWest buddy in SLC. (he voted NO)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Jon Rivoli]

Willful ignorance General. There wasn't any growth on the table at the time. The vote was about 75% yes though, but hey 25% will say no to just about anything. Maybe that 25% did see the writing on the wall, but if they did they had a far better crystal ball than most these days. More likely the made a stand on principle not knowing any better than the rest of us what the future held.

 

[737 Pylt]

Willful ignorance General. There wasn't any growth on the table at the time. The vote was about 75% yes though, but hey 25% will say no to just about anything. Maybe that 25% did see the writing on the wall, but if they did they had a far better crystal ball than most these days. More likely the made a stand on principle not knowing any better than the rest of us what the future held.

Jon:
I only keep bringing it up, becuase of a POS like CFIT who seems to "get off" on the demise of the DL pilots. Then No Delay chimes in.....Well, my patience has warn out with these types.
I guess its ok for you guys to take a "18 month" pay freeze (BTW its now April 2006, nearly 4 1/2 years later), but when the DL pilots do it, its that we have "no balls." Its not a slam at the SKY pilot group in general (te he), but towards your loudmouth spokespeople like cfit! Sorry if it comes off as offensive towards the pilot group in general (oh brother)!
Why is it when concessions happen at that person's airline, there is every justification, but when it happens at DL, its just too easy to take a cheap shot. I guess we (the DL pilot group) are the group everyone loves to hate. Its also a lot easier to blame us for their problems.
Regards,
737

 

[WSurf]

LMAO! Is that what you said to the Us Airways pilots when they voted in concessions...How about the UAL pilots??
The DL pilots, in fact voted in the most lucrative (highly paid) contract in aviation history....And this down spiral is OUR fault.
Congrats, you get the idiot of the year award!
737



From Airline pilot central:

Year 10 CRJ cpt SKYW ASA
$74.00 (crj 70)$57.00 (e120) $81.00 (crj70) $71.00

Now back to your rock Dave!

Don't think you understood what he said!! Work rules make up most of your money! Now I am sure that SKYW management would give their pilots a 8-10 dollar pay raise if they were allow to pull some of there work rules!
Work rules at a region means the difference between a 80hr. pay credit month compared to a 110hr pay credit month! So with the work rules I would guess to say ASA wouldn't take that much of a pay hit.
Maybe someone else can chime in on the ASA workrules Vs. SKYW!!

 

[Lebowski]

To catagorically demonize the SKYW pilots for a the decision we made back then requires a willful ignorance of the facts and history. The SKYW pilot group isn't catagorically different than any other pilot group. Jerry doesn't just hire stupid people. What is different at SKYW is the the experience the pilot group has with their relationship with management. ANY other pilot group in our shoes WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING!

Peace or GFYS, it's up to you. I don't care.

What Rivoli said. I am 100% behind Delta maintaining scope and turning things around. Continually lashing out at SKYW pilots does not help your cause as mainline pilots. Trying to pit ASA against SKYW doesn't help our cause, either. I look forward to working with our friends at ASA to improve things for both groups.

If you are upset at the tools who appear happy to take flying from Delta, please don't blame the rest of us who are behind you. Not only is it unbecoming, it's counterproductive.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Work rules are 75% of what we are fighting for in our negotiations. The other 25% is our pay rates that we will not reduce in order to get growth. Every time managment has asked for concessions we have told them NO! Our managment wants a concessionary contract and to bring our rates on the 70 down to comair levels. They can pound sand IMO and a lot of others at ASA.

From what little I know about SKW's work rules they are better than ASA's.

Hindsight is always 20/20. That applies to a lot of pilot groups, DAL and SKW included. Can't undo history, it is what we do now that matters.

 

[mrnolmts]

the problem is there is no such thing as a 76 seat aircraft.

Not that it matters in this particular scenario, but QX is putting 76 seats in their Q400's...

 

[Dave Benjamin]

From Airline pilot central:

Year 10 CRJ cpt SKYW ASA
$74.00 (crj 70)$57.00 (e120) $81.00 (crj70) $71.00

Now back to your rock Dave!

Before I go back to my rock maybe I can sell you a clue.
Hourly rates don't include bonuses and profit sharing. Nor do they take into account work rules or guarantees. Many of the ASA guys on this forum seem to want what SKYW has.

Work rules are 75% of what we are fighting for in our negotiations. <snip>
From what little I know about SKW's work rules they are better than ASA's.

Hindsight is always 20/20. That applies to a lot of pilot groups, DAL and SKW included. Can't undo history, it is what we do now that matters.

You also manage to ignore the fact that 50 seat pay at ASA is $3 less per hour than SKYW. Both airlines operate mostly 50 seaters. Another fact off the airlinepilotpay website you mentioned.

ASA - Most junior CA hired in 2001
SKYW - Most junior CA hired in 2005

Both airlines need improvements to pay but to say SKYW pilots are holding ASA back is nothing but ignorance on your part. Of course you know what they say - ignorance is bliss.

I guess you're one happy guy.
Good luck with your TA.

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

Before I go back to my rock maybe I can sell you a clue.



I guess you're one happy guy.
Good luck with your TA.

Dave,

Don't waste your time confusing him and genital leech with facts. They are just stupid, arrogant (my guess) or trolling to stir up arguments.

Here is the $64 question. If DALPA agrees to >70 seats, will these two finally leave and quit stirring things up?

 

[homerjdispatch]

Dave,

Here is the $64 question. If DALPA agrees to >70 seats, will these two finally leave and quit stirring things up?

We can all dream, cant we! :uzi:

 

[General Lee]

Dave,

Don't waste your time confusing him and genital leech with facts. They are just stupid, arrogant (my guess) or trolling to stir up arguments.

Here is the $64 question. If DALPA agrees to >70 seats, will these two finally leave and quit stirring things up?

No, I will continue to give my opinions forever. Get used to it dumba$$. Do like Dave Benjamin and put me on ignore if you don't like it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[WSurf]

No, I will continue to give my opinions forever. Get used to it dumba$$. Do like Dave Benjamin and put me on ignore if you don't like it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

No, Yes and Yes!!!!

 

[737 Pylt]

Before I go back to my rock maybe I can sell you a clue.

Sure you can afford it??

Hourly rates don't include bonuses and profit sharing. Nor do they take into account work rules or guarantees. Many of the ASA guys on this forum seem to want what SKYW has.

Hey whatever justification you have for taking concessions...I gues when concessions happen to your group, its called "bonuses and profit sharing." But when others do it, is easy to point the finger and place the blame.
Hello pot, meet kettle!

You also manage to ignore the fact that 50 seat pay at ASA is $3 less per hour than SKYW. Both airlines operate mostly 50 seaters. Another fact off the airlinepilotpay website you mentioned.

It is based off the most "senior equipment." (the pay rate that is)

ASA - Most junior CA hired in 2001
SKYW - Most junior CA hired in 2005

(is that on the prop or the rj?)

Both airlines need improvements to pay but to say SKYW pilots are holding ASA back is nothing but ignorance on your part. Of course you know what they say - ignorance is bliss.

I guess you're one happy guy.
Good luck with your TA.

Very happy, just fed up with your pals like CFIpieceofsh*T)! You guys take pot shots at the legacy pilots...Particularly DL....My guess, you tried and were unsuccessful at getting hired....I've seen it a thousand times, now you are basking in the fact that the lagacies are suffering....Hey, whatever makes you happy.
Good luck trying to improve your wages.
737

 

[~~~^~~~]

737 :

You continue to take pot shots at us. Many of us never "failed to get hired." I have been hired at every aviation job I've applied to and have turned down three opportunities in the last 14 months. Some of us have looked around and decided that with the pay rates you mainline guys have negotiated to try to take back flying, that we are better off making our measly $70K up to $130K a year with decent security than being furlough fodder at one of your coveted mainline jobs.

Now that some of us have decided that in fact we are professional pilots where we are at we have begun to fight to raise the profession. Unfotunately our most serious adversary on the path to improving our profession has been our union, which is pushed by guys like you to keep the pilots "who failed to get hired" below them.

Thank you for wishing us luck on our efforts to improve our wages - I know where that came from and it sure wasn't your heart.

When will you guys learn that we raise the profession together? Mainline equipment should pay much more than it does, but rather than focus on 767 rates, you spend more of your time worrying about 50 seat RJ rates.

~~~^~~~

 

[737 Pylt]

737 :

You continue to take pot shots at us.

That's a joke right?? Since when, in any of your posts have you not blamed your current situation, or lack ther of by taking pot shots at the DMEC?? I submit your "bait" thread on the pass privilege debacle!

Many of us never "failed to get hired." I have been hired at every aviation job I've applied to and have turned down three opportunities in the last 14 months. Some of us have looked around and decided that with the pay rates you mainline guys have negotiated to try to take back flying, that we are better off making our measly $70K up to $130K a year with decent security than being furlough fodder at one of your coveted mainline jobs.

Is that before of after you won your lawsuit??

Now that some of us have decided that in fact we are professional pilots where we are at we have begun to fight to raise the profession. Unfotunately our most serious adversary on the path to improving our profession has been our union, which is pushed by guys like you to keep the pilots "who failed to get hired" below them.

By fighting to raise the profession, do you mean "sue to get what isn't rightfully yours?""

Thank you for wishing us luck on our efforts to improve our wages - I know where that came from and it sure wasn't your heart.

You see that's where you're wrong....I don't wish any bad on ANY pilots in this industry (well maybe CFIT and Oh Please). I don't find joy in others' misfortunes. Unlike these guys. While I don't agree with your lawsuit, I don't wish you out of work, just out of the union when this thing is finally rejected!

When will you guys learn that we raise the profession together? Mainline equipment should pay much more than it does, but rather than focus on 767 rates, you spend more of your time worrying about 50 seat RJ rates.

~~~^~~~

How can we raise the profession together, when you gusy are constantly blaming every one of your problems on the evil DL pilots....I'll make a deal, I'll stop worrying about 50 seat rates if you stop blaming all your problems on the DMEC. If your problem is with ALPA national, I must say, I agree with you there, there needs to be changes. You see we (DL pilots) are not your enemies, much as you try to tell yourselves and everyone else!
Respectfully submitted,
737

 

[rtmcfi]

I'll make a deal, I'll stop worrying about 50 seat rates if you stop blaming all your problems on the DMEC. If your problem is with ALPA national, I must say, I agree with you there, there needs to be changes. You see we (DL pilots) are not your enemies, much as you try to tell yourselves and everyone else!
Respectfully submitted,
737

737- This is your big mistake. You do need to worry about 50 seat rates. 50 leads to 70, leads to 90 and so on. Currently, SkyWest pays 50 seat rates to 70 seat pilots. If 90 seaters arrive, OO will fly those for the same rate, and others in the regionals will follow suit. If you watch 50, 70, and 90 seat payscales stagnate, you will sign your own furlough notice. 50 seaters have a tough time replacing a 73. 70 and 90 seaters can do this easily. You should be keeping your eye on 50 seat rates. What happens to the regionals does not occur in a vacuum. Pilots on all levels have their fate tied to one another, for better or worse.

Pilots a couple of generations ago did wonders for the profession, and made it a great career. Most pilots that are currently in their twilight years have dropped the ball horribly, and through selfishness, have hastened the destruction of the profession. It remains to be seen if those of us left can do anything to salvage what remains. If anything positive is to occur, it will only be through unity and selflessness. Regional pilots need to pull for mainline, and those fortunate enough to be at mainline need to support their regional brethren. Infighting and apathy are not our allies....

 

[~~~^~~~]

I submit your "bait" thread on the pass privilege debacle!

The recap was in the Roar from 44, which is a DAL LEC 44 publication funded with ALPA money. Can you get me a link to the Roar and I will post the exact quotes.

 

[benjakes]

737- This is your big mistake. You do need to worry about 50 seat rates. 50 leads to 70, leads to 90 and so on. Currently, SkyWest pays 50 seat rates to 70 seat pilots. If 90 seaters arrive, OO will fly those for the same rate, and others in the regionals Will follow suit. If you watch 50, 70, and 90 seat payscales stagnate, you will sign your own furlough notice. 50 seaters have a tough time replacing a 73. 70 and 90 seaters can do this easily. You should be keeping your eye on 50 seat rates. What happens to the regionals does not occur in a vacuum. Pilots on all levels have their fate tied to one another, for better or worse.

Pilots a couple of generations ago did wonders for the profession, and made it a great career. Most pilots that are currently in their twilight years have dropped the ball horribly, and through selfishness, have hastened the destruction of the profession. It remains to be seen if those of us left can do anything to salvage what remains. If anything positive is to occur, it will only be through unity and selflessness. Regional pilots need to pull for mainline, and those fortunate enough to be at mainline need to support their regional brethren. Infighting and apathy are not our allies....

You get it...... Why do so few others?

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

No, I will continue to give my opinions forever. Get used to it dumba$$. Do like Dave Benjamin and put me on ignore if you don't like it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

And I'll continue to give mine as well MUNCH!!!!

Get used to it breath.

Don't like it? Ignore me.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And if this isn't frigging (and yes, that's allowed) poetic justice? Guess what? YOU also get 2 days in the PB just like your friend General Lee- and for the same offense. I've called ahead and had the warden give you two adjoining cells so that you can chat. True Irony. You gotta love it!

 

[737 Pylt]

The recap was in the Roar from 44, which is a DAL LEC 44 publication funded with ALPA money. Can you get me a link to the Roar and I will post the exact quotes.

I'm not a member of council 44...I find it ironic that you printed it, and you can't seem to back it up. Typical, just more lies from you.
I can submit this however...

As many of you know, Delta, in particular our friends at LEC44 have been trying to wrestle pass benefits away from ASA employees. However, I think Delta's greed may have shifted the table.

Delta offered to renew my pass benefits for one year in exchange for $50, which I just paid. Sounds like an offer, an acceptance, for a legal purpose, amongst capable parties with valuable consideration exchanged - in other words a binding contract. Better yet, Delta is in bankputcy and this contract was negotiated after the petition.

Account Activation Confirmation PPR Number: 70XXXXXAll flight benefits are activated from 03/XX/06 until 03/XX/07.
Your account activation confirmation number is #00XXXXXXXX. Total Amount: USD 50.00Print this receipt for your records.

Oh you can bet I will save that reciept - General, don't worry, you can still bump me, that is, unless I'm using my S2's.

And of course your retract, if thats what you want to call it:

Well my bait caught 737 Pilot. But it is true, do you read the "Roar from 44?" They have published arguements in favor of taking pass benefits from ASA pilots, not just on mainline, but on ASA too. This publication is produced with contingency funds if I am not mistaken - in other words - a portion of my ALPA dues goes to publish another MEC's political arguements to take away my benefits - thanks ALPA.

Very few ASA employees are senior to anyone at Delta anyway, so the S3C matter is really a distinction without much of a difference. If we had priority on ASA flights, it probably would be an overall benefit to ASA employees - but the Delta guys would really get screwed, in particular those who commute.

Fins:
Roar 44 has a section in the back of their publication where pilots can post gripes, and there have been numerous "gripes" about ASA now going below DL employees on DL aircraft. I don't see what the issue is, you are NO longer a wholly owned subsidiary!
737