The Death - Final Blow

[Smash312]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6413315.stm

 

[Huck]

The World is Flat.

And we will be flattened.

Not on the domestic side (yet), but here come the Trans-Atlantic low-cost operators....

 

[720persecond]

The World is Flat.

And we will be flattened.

Not on the domestic side (yet), but here come the Trans-Atlantic low-cost operators....

Huck,

I agree. But imagine when it's the low cost indian or chinese airlines that will be able to walmartize us...

Not defending the europeans, but hey, deregulation started in the US almost 30 years ago. Europe lagged by more than 20 years

 

[crashpad]

"However, the deal would make it easier for EU companies to buy all of an airline's non-voting shares. At the same time, the EU would be able to restrict US investment in EU airlines."


See what happens when we don't secure the borders?!!! The United States might as well hang a sign which says:
"Land of the Free....to give away."


With Congress working on a Bill to tax the living $hit out of general aviation, I'd say this is the literal end to the Golden Days of flying.

 

[TheBaron]

"However, the deal would make it easier for EU companies to buy all of an airline's non-voting shares. At the same time, the EU would be able to restrict US investment in EU airlines."


See what happens when we don't secure the borders?!!! The United States might as well hang a sign which says:
"Land of the Free....to give away."


With Congress working on a Bill to tax the living $hit out of general aviation, I'd say this is the literal end to the Golden Days of flying.

I think you're missing this key element. The EU companies can invest their money in US airlines but won't have any say over how we are run. It will also allow a greater penetration of the European market by US carriers, which is where the $$$ are now. Domestic is nickel and dime and the domain of the LCC.

 

[Dizel8]

"In order to speed consolidation in the industry, the "open skies" deal would be extended to include African or non-EU airlines controlled by EU firms, and would give anti-monopoly immunity to make mergers easier".

"Virgin Nigeria now boarding flt. 2341 LHR-ORD!"

 

[c9skytrain]

My greatest fear is that in a couple years we will have Chinese and Indian pilots over here, working for half our pay, packed 20 to a crashpad as part of some foreign airline. Maybe I am thinking too deeply into this annoucement.

 

[doh]

My greatest fear is that in a couple years we will have Chinese and Indian pilots over here, working for half our pay, packed 20 to a crashpad as part of some foreign airline. Maybe I am thinking too deeply into this annoucement.

No you are not! Your greatest fear is the governments wet dream!uke:

 

[BoilerUP]

The Chinese and Indians don't have enough pilots in their own countries to fly domestic routes, let alone a massive international push into US markets. Foreign airlines are paying top dollar for American pilots right now to fly everything from Dash 8s to 777s.

The sky isn't falling...yet.

 

[apache]

In 18 months you can teach a monkey to fly a modern automated jet. Be afraid.

 

[BigMeat]

The only thing we can do is be political. Either vote Democrat and IF you are going to vote republican find one thats sympathetic to our cause. You can bash ALPA all you want but they have a little thing called ALPA PAC. Yes we buy politicians too just like big business. Its time to donate. JetBlue guys need to understand the political benfit of being a strong union. You guys would get it in the shorts. Im sure Neelman is not going to be fighting against the right of foriegn investors if it benefits him. You guys need to contribute. ALPA, SWAPA, APA all fight against cabatoge all the time. Support them. We are a very educated professional group, lets put it to use. The thing I like about pilots is we pick on each other all the time but if something endagers our livelyhood we can come together really quick. In order to that however we need to have an infrastructure that we can channel our efforts.

 

[apache]

We are screwed voting Democrat also. They are the party that is in lock-step with Decider Bush to dissolve American economic and political sovereignty.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

Apache is DEAD accurate.

Excellent post!

 

[JimNtexas]

Democrats are all about open borders, as is Bush. But on the Republican side we do have many elected officals who would still like to have some sort of control of immigration.

The Democrats want all jobs, voting, and all goverment bennies opened up to anyone who walks in the door, no questions asked.

 

[BigMeat]

Democrats have traditionally been the friends of organized labor and not outsourcing. I know its not the "in" thing to support a dem. but thats the truth of it. I think it was Senator McCain that wanted to make pilot strikes illegal wasnt it?

 

[JFReservist]

Don't be duped in to a Democrat v. Republican argument. Be pro-American. We have put everyone's interest and 'rights' above our self-interest for too long. I have been a conservative my entire adult life, and Bush is not a conservative when it comes to our economic soverignty. It would be easy to say look to the party that upheld strong immmigration policies - like the Dems in the teens - the 50's - unfortunately, the other side of the aisle is also willing to give the shop away. The argument should be for secure borders in all respects. This is not anti-immigrant or anti-business, just a - dare I say - common sense approach. In some respect, an old question posed comes to mind. If you break this down to a very local level, Would you let this happen in your own household?

 

[BigMeat]

JFReservist you said it right on. Back your union politcal groups and let them support those who support us. They have already weeded out the evil ones. Those who are not union. Get one. Youll need it.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Democrats have traditionally been the friends of organized labor and not outsourcing. I know its not the "in" thing to support a dem. but thats the truth of it. I think it was Senator McCain that wanted to make pilot strikes illegal wasnt it?

Tuesday, February 27, 2001

Pilots pay smeared in U.S. air woes outcry
By Simon Hirschfeld


NEW YORK (Reuters) - Are pilots highly trained professionals with immense
responsibility, or overpaid aerial cabbies with the airlines in their
unionized grip?

As labor battles further complicate the delay-plagued U.S. air traffic
system, some politicians have pointed to the high pay levels pilots earn as
they scrutinize the use of tactics such as refusing overtime to pressure
management.

Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott this month urged the Department of
Transportation to examine pilot wages and worker-related delays. "What do
they make? Look at those salaries," Lott told the DOT Inspector General.
Airline pilots take home pay is comparable to doctors, lawyers or corporate
executives -- most earn more than $100,000 -- with very senior pilots making
a quarter million or so. They require specialized training, and a pilot one
day may make a life-saving -- or fatal -- decision.

"One of the reasons why they are rather highly paid is that the flying
public and the airlines don't want a pretty good pilot flying a commercial
airliner -- they want a great pilot," said human resources specialist Carl
Weinberg, a principal at the Unifi Network division of
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP.

Another prominent Republican senator, John McCain, blasted pilots at United
Airlines for engaging in a no-overtime campaign to "satisfy their personal
greed" that was blamed for increased delays and cancellations during
contract talks last summer.
Pilots are the most costly of airline workers, and labor is the biggest cost
for airlines. Contract negotiations between their unions and management are
often bitter.

"The fact that they've bargained for these pay levels suggests that they're
getting paid what they ought to be paid based on supply and demand,"
Weinberg said.

Last year, the contract between UAL Corp.'s United, the world's largest
airline, and its pilots ignited a new round of cost increases throughout the
industry. Several major airlines are now in negotiations with various labor
groups.

Delta Air Lines Inc., the world's No. 3 carrier, is in talks with its
pilots, some of whom have, like United pilots last summer, refused overtime
as a pressure tactic.

How much the delays and cancellations resulted from the job actions is
difficult to sort out, because of a myriad of problems ranging from limits
on airport capacity to outdated air-traffic control technology to weather.

SENIORITY LADDER

In September, McCain compared the 1998 per capital U.S. income of $20,120
with the $342,000 a year that the most senior United pilots will make by
2004. But pilots must climb a fairly rigid ladder of seniority and training
to reach those levels. Once they do so, they cannot switch over to another
airline without losing that seniority.

Pilot pay is based on the years at the airline and the type of aircraft
flown. Starting out, pilots can make less than $20,000. But by the time they
reach captain at a major airline, usually in their mid-30s, they make well
over $100,000.

A pilot usually starts at a major carrier with eight to 12 years of prior
experience, said Kit Darby, president of Air Inc., an Atlanta-based career
resource firm for pilots and other airline workers.

They typically work only 15 days a month, amounting to about 80 flight
hours, the only hours pilots are paid for. They usually spend another 80
unpaid hours on duty at airports. Add time in hotels at destination cities,
and you get 240 to 320 hours pilots spend away from home a month, Darby
said.

Pilots have always been well paid, Darby said. Pay is usually a measure of
productivity and responsibility. An airliner captain is paid based on the
size of the aircraft, an indirect reflection of the number of passengers and
cargo tonnage and the distance they are moved.

"He's got a lot going in one direction and he's responsible for that. It's a
measure of his productivity, like a ship's captain," Darby said.

A co-pilot flying a Boeing 757 or 767 aircraft with five years of experience
at the airline makes $115,392 a year at Delta now, while at United, the same
worker makes $128,712.

A 10-year captain of Boeing 737-200s makes $157,152 at Delta, and $178,152
at United. The most senior captain, with 30 years of experience, flying a
Boeing 777 wide-body, makes $248,040 at Delta, and $254,748 at United.

Delta pilots are expected to top United pilots, who now stand with the
highest pay among passenger carriers.

Delta's recent wage offer included pay increases from 7 to 17.5 percent on
May 1, depending in aircraft type, with average raises for mainline pilots
rising to 30 percent by the end of the proposed four-year contract.

 

[30West]

MOST earn 100,000? Where did THOSE numbers come from?

Hey you dip********************s, know how much 737-200 captains at UA and DL make? 0, cause there aren't any!
And when did flying overtime become mandatory?

Hey John- "Keating Five" you crooked dick.

No wonder this is going to be a third world country in the next 20 years.

 

[Groucho]

The other real kicker is the inclusion of African and other Asian carriers if they are controlled by an EU carrier.

You only have to look at the condition of the maritime industry to see how this will work. An EU carrier will use Kenya or some other african carrier as a Flag of Convenience and the certificate will be in that country where you can by any official for about $10 grand.

How will this carrier be certified and what regulations and oversight? The Kenyan equivalent of the FAA, which has already been bought off?
This is the worst case but it has already happened to the ocean cargo and passenger shipping industry. There are no US flag ocean carriers because of the lax regulations of the Flags of Convenience. Conservatives would tell you that the maritime unions destroyed the industry, but buying off ship inspectors in Liberia is just as effective for cost control.

We will effectively be ceeding the FAR's concerning international Flag operations to the lowest common denominator which has always been money.