The CPI and You

[CopilotDoug]

It started when I asked a fellow pilot what he made his first year as a pilot. His response? $5,880/yr back in 1967 flying a Twin Turbo-prop for a REGIONAL. I asked him how he managed to live on that kind of a wage...to which he showed me this website

http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/data/us/calc/

When I punched the numbers in, I was dumbfounded to see how much $5,880 in 1966 equaled in today's money. The kicker? He made $14,000/yr second year. I wanted to vomit and cry all at once.

Every year, the buying power of $1 gets weaker. Yet every year, the compensation for airline CEO's goes up. Meanwhile alot of airlines have either stagnated their pay OR have taken paycuts. This right here is the reason to fight for better pay. Make your Union reps earn their money.

 

[Soverytired]

Well, to be fair, the airlines were pretty heavily regulated at the time. Consumers were SCREWED, and getting into aviation was pretty hard.

Now I'm NOT defending CEO pay. I work for JO at Mesa . . . his compensation package was 4.5 million last year ALONE, even though this place is quickly getting run into the ground.

But the aviation world has changed dramatically, and until pilots quit en masse due to lack of QOL that isn't even compensated by generous renumeration . . . it's just going to continue.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Perspective always helps in these scenarios.

Soverytired is right, things were FAR more regulated then, and the supply of pilots was very TIGHT. I mean very.

121 carriers were sending recruiters to local FBO's to find pilots, so what do you think the little puddle-jumpers were doing?

Supply and demand. You might make your union rep earn his money by learning just what that means.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Also, those puddlejumper pilots making the eq of $35k first year? They weren't unionized either.

Ask your union rep about that next time you see them. Just what have they done for you?

 

[CopilotDoug]

I see what you're saying Jungle Jet. What I gained from having been shown this that there are alot of people (I myself included in this group) that don't understand the economic implications. This was not meant to be a "Hey...they got their's where the helll is ours?!?" type post.

Rather, it just highlights the slow backslide of the American Paycheck. This trend has been continuing since about the 60's. Studies have shown that a single income could support a family back in 1955, while it takes two incomes to support that same family today.

Unfortunately, you get alot of fresh, young aspiring pilots who think

"$20k/yr? Why not, it's a heck of alot more than what they were making 20 years ago doing the same Regional Gig"
​

when it's not. Sadly, in 15 years when Regional FO's are averaging $25k/year...they'll look back and think they are doing better than we are today.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Interesting.....

ASA's pay rates corrected for inflation....

First year $24 an hour
Second Year CRJ700 $46

Five Year RJ Capt. $76.50
Ten Year 700 Capt. $100.00

Top Capt. Rate $127

Where do I sign. I would love my 1998 contract

Even better, my Dad's job as a second year Second Officer $187 an hour.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

I see what you're saying Jungle Jet. What I gained from having been shown this that there are alot of people (I myself included in this group) that don't understand the economic implications. This was not meant to be a "Hey...they got their's where the helll is ours?!?" type post.

Rather, it just highlights the slow backslide of the American Paycheck. This trend has been continuing since about the 60's. Studies have shown that a single income could support a family back in 1955, while it takes two incomes to support that same family today.

Unfortunately, you get alot of fresh, young aspiring pilots who think

"$20k/yr? Why not, it's a heck of alot more than what they were making 20 years ago doing the same Regional Gig"
​

when it's not. Sadly, in 15 years when Regional FO's are averaging $25k/year...they'll look back and think they are doing better than we are today.

Sorry man, I apologize if it came out as if I was flaming you.

We (as pilots) kill ourselves because we are one of the few work groups out there that would do our jobs for free, to say nothing of those who actually pay to do it. Think about it, who else do you know who would pay to do their job? Can you blame a business owner for taking advantage of that fact? I'm not defending that, just stating the reality.

It's tough to compare working conditions in this industry to the 60's because things were so different. Most major crew members were ex-military (in fact, it was fairly rare to see civies then) and flying for one of these commuter carriers wasn't necessarily a step-up entry level job but seen more as a career back then. These were small companies, either individually or family owned that had small numbers of aircraft and crew. People were treated differently, as they didn't come into the job with the expectation of moving on at 1000tt PIC.

Things changed around the early 80's as the industry began to see these carriers as a way to cheaply sub-contract out their lower yielding routes. With the feds no longer guaranteeing a profit for a company to fly Des Moines-Cincinnati, they had to find alternatives. Commuter carriers were there to fill the void, then with so many new carriers popping up nearly on a daily basis, the sudden shortage of pilots caused majors to look at the ranks of commuter pilots to fill those spots.

AF90 was a great example, as the CA on that one was a DC-3 CA not too long before that flight, doing short-haul flights around the Keys and couldn't fly his way out of a paper bag, by all accounts.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Airline ticket prices not keeping up with inflation


Submitted by WWAY on 18 April 2007 - 8:20pm.READ MORE: News | Airlines | Business | Consumer | Transportation
Story body

CONSUMER WATCH -- Buying an airline ticket today is a lot different than it was 25 years ago. With websites like Orbitz and Expedia and low-cost carriers like AirTran and Jet Blue competing for your business times have changed.
One thing that hasn't changed: it still feels expensive to buy an airline ticket. It seems we are paying more these days. But when you take inflation into account, flying is surprisingly less expensive.
Booking an airline flight and searching for the lowest fare? You might be surprised to learn that in many cases, ticket prices have actually not kept pace with inflation.
Air travel analyst Terry Trippler conducted a random survey of schedules and airfares comparing ticket prices of today with those from 25 years ago for 27 different cities.
When 1982 prices are adjusted for inflation, Trippler found that today's prices are actually lower.
In 1982 there were three roundtrip flights from Boston to Los Angeles, with the lowest fare costing $298. Adjusted for inflation, that ticket should cost $635 today, but Trippler found that, not only are there nine roundtrip flights instead of three, the lowest fare was just $199.
Flying from New York to Miami? In the eighties there were 21 flights, with the lowest fare costing $188. That same ticket should cost $400 in 2007, but Trippler found that the lowest fare was actually $158 and there are now 25 nonstop flights.
So take some comfort when paying for that ticket. You could be paying a lot more.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Computers have decreased in price dramatically. Not hearing Dell workers whine about wages, threatening strikes or calling in unions.

Lot's of markets see dramatic decreases in pricing. The difference lies in the fact that they aren't sticking to a failed 1950's era business model.

 

[merlindrvr88]

Sorry Jungle

Sorry man, I apologize if it came out as if I was flaming you.

We (as pilots) kill ourselves because we are one of the few work groups out there that would do our jobs for free, to say nothing of those who actually pay to do it. Think about it, who else do you know who would pay to do their job? Can you blame a business owner for taking advantage of that fact? I'm not defending that, just stating the reality.

It's tough to compare working conditions in this industry to the 60's because things were so different. Most major crew members were ex-military (in fact, it was fairly rare to see civies then) and flying for one of these commuter carriers wasn't necessarily a step-up entry level job but seen more as a career back then. These were small companies, either individually or family owned that had small numbers of aircraft and crew. People were treated differently, as they didn't come into the job with the expectation of moving on at 1000tt PIC.

Things changed around the early 80's as the industry began to see these carriers as a way to cheaply sub-contract out their lower yielding routes. With the feds no longer guaranteeing a profit for a company to fly Des Moines-Cincinnati, they had to find alternatives. Commuter carriers were there to fill the void, then with so many new carriers popping up nearly on a daily basis, the sudden shortage of pilots caused majors to look at the ranks of commuter pilots to fill those spots.

AF90 was a great example, as the CA on that one was a DC-3 CA not too long before that flight, doing short-haul flights around the Keys and couldn't fly his way out of a paper bag, by all accounts.

Sorry Jungle, but some of us are not perfect, and won't work for free. I make more than most 12 year captains at the regionals. We need to stand up and say no. You pay me!!! I don't pay you. We need to stand up. I don't say you are the blame, but we need to stand up and say no, that is the only way things will get better. Say no, and stick together, and get rid of ALPO, our biggest enemy!!!

 

[CopilotDoug]

Computers have decreased in price dramatically.

How many computers are manufactured here in the US?

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Sorry Jungle, but some of us are not perfect, and won't work for free. I make more than most 12 year captains at the regionals. We need to stand up and say no. You pay me!!! I don't pay you. We need to stand up. I don't say you are the blame, but we need to stand up and say no, that is the only way things will get better. Say no, and stick together, and get rid of ALPO, our biggest enemy!!!

Guess what Merlin, you have the choice! Don't take the friggin' job. This is America this is (sort of) a free country, nobody is forcing anyone to take a substandard job.

Do you think these days that people are uneducated about Mesa, Gulfstream, Colgan, etc? Of course not, yet they go there in droves (though I hear Mesa is having some issues with being short-staffed).

My point being that we as a work group control this, not management, and certainly not the clowns at ALPA.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

How many computers are manufactured here in the US?

According to this report, about half. Computer manufacturing in this country is about a $41 billion dollar business.

I assume you were trying to hint that computers are getting cheaper because greedy capitalists are simply outsourcing the manufacturing, but that's not necessarily the case.

 

[CopilotDoug]

According to this report, about half. Computer manufacturing in this country is about a $41 billion dollar business.

I assume you were trying to hint that computers are getting cheaper because greedy capitalists are simply outsourcing the manufacturing, but that's not necessarily the case.

Who said I was trying to hint? I was ASKING a question because I did not know the answer. But since you do bring up that report, I will ask another question: Is it finally assembled here in the US, or is the manufacturing of all the components completed here in the US too?

But yes, I will make the connection that cheap labor costs over seas are what have helped drive computer costs down.

I made my mistake by going to a regional...I learned from it..and I will seek employment outside aviation before I go back to another regional. Did you know you can START in a warehouse making $40k a year with full benefits , retirement (in the form of deferred savings) AND get re-imbursed for your masters degree 100%? What does the BEST regional out there offer that can compete with that? Too many pilots don't heed the advice given to them before they jump head first into the airlines. Everybody thinks they will be the exception, and that they will have a grand old time flying..."Well, the pay sucks...but man, I get to fly a JET! How bad can it really be? Besides, I'll be here for only 5-7 years before going to SWA or FedEx"

Riiiiiiight...get in line behind the thousands of other pilots who came up with that idea.

Pilots have to look around them and realize the airline they are with now MAY be their career. No more of this BS attitude of "It's only a stepping stone, I'll let someone else fix it"

Pilots need to collectively put their foot down to improve their working conditions and compensation.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Relax bud, it seems that we are actually in agreement here.

We have a choice: work under crappy conditions or not. More often than not, we choose to ignore crappy conditions hoping for that 1000PIC.

I disagree that regionals will be a career. The corp/frac/charter world is booming, and on the verge of downright exploding. VLJ's are as easy to fly as a Seminole, and there will be many operators hiring low-timers to fly right seat. That will be competition to the regionals, who will be forced to improve conditions in order to complete flights.

 

[CopilotDoug]

That will be competition to the regionals, who will be forced to improve conditions in order to complete flights.

I sincerely hope you are correct. It would be a welcome relief.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

It's simply a case of supply and demand. For some time now there've been way too many starstruck kids reading Flying mag and jetting down to FLA for their overpriced flight school with a "guaranteed interview". There have been waiting lists at FBO's all over the country for CFI gigs. When bottom feeders like Great Lakes can institute a 1000hr min to fly a King Air on steroids, then you know something is wrong.

Now? Comair is junior manning, Pinnacle is way shorthanded, Mesa, Colgan, Commutair, you name it.

Nobody forces us to take crappy jobs at substandard pay. We do it to ourselves, because we are one of the lucky ones who get to do something we are truly passionate about.

There are cycles to everything, and I think we are trending upwards. Hang in there, and keep the right side up.

 

[merlindrvr88]

I agree.

Guess what Merlin, you have the choice! Don't take the friggin' job. This is America this is (sort of) a free country, nobody is forcing anyone to take a substandard job.

Do you think these days that people are uneducated about Mesa, Gulfstream, Colgan, etc? Of course not, yet they go there in droves (though I hear Mesa is having some issues with being short-staffed).

My point being that we as a work group control this, not management, and certainly not the clowns at ALPA.

I agree, and think like you. Mesa is having problems, and will continue to do so. Thanks for the support, and screw ALPO. We need to stand up and fight. I love my job, and would never give it up. It is just sad that I have more than 20 days off a month, and make more than 90K a year. While these guys stay at Mesa, and take the abuse, Like I use too.

 

[av8er2]

I personally don't need to compare to the past. I just know there is a lot of problems with the airlines.

That is why I am out soon.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

I agree, and think like you. Mesa is having problems, and will continue to do so. Thanks for the support, and screw ALPO. We need to stand up and fight. I love my job, and would never give it up. It is just sad that I have more than 20 days off a month, and make more than 90K a year. While these guys stay at Mesa, and take the abuse, Like I use too.

Hang in there, my man. Nothing beats the view at FL320, especially when someone is paying you to see it.