The Arbitration

[vtwo]

What do you mean By "reasonable expectation" ?

Ther are no reasonable expectations when you are an employee. especially in aviation.
I don't buy the "reasonable expectations" argument.
Even the retired guys had reasonable expectation of the pensions they earned. now look how that worked out.

 

[Green]

My case is one of many....hired in 1989.....was supposed to retire in the top 50 of the AAA seniority list. Furloughed but with out a single new jet on the property for the next 20 years, I still end up @ #20 on the list and get to fly the 757/767 starting @ age 52 and the A330 starting at age 55. That is what attrition brings to the table.....a rapid progression up the list without any growth.

Now with the new list, I end up @ 800 or so. This makes it impossible to fly the A330 and even the 767 is questionable. Who will be taking my place? A West pilot who had no reasonable expectation of widebody flying sans the merger.

DOS was a reasonable point to merge the lists with the restrictions/fences in place, no West pilot would ever be displaced. The list as it is would be acceptable with larger, longer fences that preserve both groups pre merger expectations as far as attrition. It isn't the number on the list, it is where it places you 5, 10, and 15 years out. I would take the list as it is now with a larger fence on the widebodies as well as some way to protect my progression to where it was or even close to it. I think no matter how you slice it, going from # 20 to # 800 isn't even in the ballpark as far as a reasonable endgame.

Never before in seniority integrations have two lists at such opposite ends of the spectrum been placed together with such puny, ineffective fences.

A350

If you believe Parker's assertion that AWA would probably have had to restructure in BK then you also have to remember that he has stated multiple times that AAA would have certainly liquidated without the merger. He has leaked that AAA was in the process of liquidation when the merger was consumated. So your chances of retiring number 20 were slim to none. Those were the facts...

I have compassion for the terrible blows that AAA has taken but I don't buy the victim persona. You got the top 500 slots and nobody has moved backwards. Not bad for an airline on death's doorstep. I'm sure TWA pilots would have killed to get the same deal.

 

[eaglefly]

My case is one of many....hired in 1989.....was supposed to retire in the top 50 of the AAA seniority list. Furloughed but with out a single new jet on the property for the next 20 years, I still end up @ #20 on the list and get to fly the 757/767 starting @ age 52 and the A330 starting at age 55. That is what attrition brings to the table.....a rapid progression up the list without any growth.

Now with the new list, I end up @ 800 or so. This makes it impossible to fly the A330 and even the 767 is questionable. Who will be taking my place? A West pilot who had no reasonable expectation of widebody flying sans the merger.

DOS was a reasonable point to merge the lists with the restrictions/fences in place, no West pilot would ever be displaced. The list as it is would be acceptable with larger, longer fences that preserve both groups pre merger expectations as far as attrition. It isn't the number on the list, it is where it places you 5, 10, and 15 years out. I would take the list as it is now with a larger fence on the widebodies as well as some way to protect my progression to where it was or even close to it. I think no matter how you slice it, going from # 20 to # 800 isn't even in the ballpark as far as a reasonable endgame.

Never before in seniority integrations have two lists at such opposite ends of the spectrum been placed together with such puny, ineffective fences.

A350

Agree that U pilots should've gotten a better deal on widebody fences.

 

[The Victors]

Regardless of the backpack wearing junior AWA FO's rants, it's wrong to staple 1800 pilots to the bottom of the list. The fences should have been longer and the furloughees should have been slotted in.

 

[The Victors]

and yes, above awa junior FO's. What was there career expection going to be in an almost certain AWA bankruptcy without the merger?

 

[Dogwood]

Regardless of the backpack wearing junior AWA FO's rants, it's wrong to staple 1800 pilots to the bottom of the list. The fences should have been longer and the furloughees should have been slotted in.

Agreed. The east furloughees should have been slotted in, with protections for the west so as not to harm their expected upgrade progression either.

There was a much better way to do this, that would have kept both sides fairly content.

 

[BigMotorToter]

Never before in seniority integrations have two lists at such opposite ends of the spectrum been placed together with such puny, ineffective fences.

A350

Actually all you have to do is go back to 2001 and get educated about the TWA/AA seniority integration, and you will see that is has happened before. Our 1988 hires, All Captains, some on the 767 were stapled below probationary new hires.

We tried to appeal to ALPA National. We even traveled to Herndon and gave a power point presentation on what 1113 bankruptcy's were and how it was being used to ramrod a one sided seniority integration against us.

Maybe if the LEC reps. of each airline were looking out for the collective good of ALL ALPA pilots, instead of Delta plus a dollar, you would not be in this situation.

From one who has been there, I truly feel your pain. Good luck.

 

[vtwo]

Expectations?????????????

and yes, above awa junior FO's. What was there career expection going to be in an almost certain AWA bankruptcy without the merger?

What were the Pan Am career expectations, Braniff, Eastern, ect...
Vangaurd, Access air, Twa, American airlines, bla bla bla.

It's not fair I was expecting my first wife to follow through with our planed expectations, before she changed her plans, I was expecting my airline to give me a pension and health care after 60.

Don't expect things and then your feelings won't be hurt.
Now get back to work, your just an employee.

 

[BigMotorToter]

Aren't mergers also part of "career expectations".

 

[vtwo]

Aren't mergers also part of "career expectations".

Absolutely, also you should expect to be blindsided a couple of times.

Medical issues, Bankruptcy's, Scabs trying to undermine what you are fighting for, Management to LIE's to you.

Maintenance pencil whipping, Feds Changing their interpretation.Are the any More that I left out?

 

[A350]

Vtwo:

Your claim about my reasonable expectation has merit....but all I see from the West is arguements about this very thing and how this "preserves" their expectations......

Further, the assertions that AWA or AAA would have entered BK or liquidated without the merger are just assumptions that noone can validate with any degree of certainty. Just because Parker says it doesn't make it so. I have no doubt that if a deal with AWA wasn't done, AWA or AAA would have merged with different partners. The guy running AAA at the time was a money guy, not necessarily an airline guy. Parker has made it no secret he wants to merge, so his MO is the same as it is now. Of course this is just speculation, just like the liquidation of U and the BK of AWA. Further, if no deal is done and U did liquidate and AWA entered BK, I can only assume that save Dave would have been looking for work with all the U pilots....so that is what assumptions will get you.

As far as being blindsided, I think the AAA guys have been blindsided more than a few times.

The TWA/AMR deal was similar to this staple job, however the TWA pilots were unfortunately dealing with a different union. This was ALPA/ALPA. Not fair by any means, but different.

A350

 

[PHXFLYR]

USAir guys just don't get it. Never have.Never will.


PHXFLYR

 

[iflyhigh]

A350:

Just a question??

How done the list due you want to protect your guys on the East?????

A 1989 guy hired at US Air spent most of the 90's on furlough and was refurloughed in 2001 or 2002??? How much time in service???

Believe I have been furloughed from a Major, and I know what its like to have career expectations destroyed. Crap, I should be flying the 757/767 right now for UAL, but my career was put on hold for the same reasons US Air pilots were, BK.

I since have moved on and no its just part of the business. Take the emotion out of it and look at the picture. How far down the list does US Air guys get protected??

Plus how many pilots active are retiring, how many off of furlough, and the big questions how many captains in the next few years? If a majority of your retirements are not captain slots?? The captain slots are the main issue, because that brings upward mobility.

I know at UAL, 99% of the retirements are from captain seats.

Believe I am not trying to pick a fight, not looking at the picture from the outside and trying to understand..

 

[fr8doggie]

Thanks DW.

One more question. Were there any active pilots that were not furloughed from the late 80's that were placed behind west pilots?

Ed

A buddy of mine who was hired by Piedmont in July of 1987 (never furloughed) was placed behind a HP 2003 hire.

That kind of blows, I think.

 

[Green]

I wish everyone who thinks AAA got a raw deal could spend 10 minutes looking at the Us Airways proposed list. It basically stapled all of AWA behind virtually every AAA pilot. ?? I don't know what some of you guys are smoking but nobody wanted a piece of Us Airways in 2005. The airline was all but done and any likely deals would have involved buying chunks of AAA as nobody wanted the whole thing. You guys were radioactive and virtually every analyst and writer thought AWA had made the mistake of the decade picking up Us Airways. Before you trash the Nicalau award I suggest you read it first. I don't think he could have done a better job crafting a fair award.

A350

Reasonable expectations are hard to bank on in the airline industry. All those senior AWA captains that you wanted to staple below Furloughed AAA pilots were expecting to retire as 747 captains flying to Japan. So correct me if I'm wrong but AWA flew bigger airplanes than anything AAA ever had. You'll likely point out that we had a tiny fleet but I would counter that AAA's coveted 330's represent 3% of the fleet. Not a very impressive number.

Finally if we had been stapled in this deal we would have bitch#d and moaned but I guarantee we would have shown a lot more class than the AAA pilots who are threatening to throw some 40k jobs down the toilet because you didn't get your wish list. Pretty childish...I fail to see the earth shattering raw deal you supposedly got. Your top 500 pilots moved up on a percentage basis and every other active pilot stayed in basically the same relative spot. You aren't going to be able to make up years of furlough on the backs of AWA pilots, but that's not how Alpa merger policy works.