The Arbitration

[EdTeachLives!]

I have a question for the AAA pilots out there. That means the AAA pilots: not Whiskey, HP, + rate, TWA dude, Grog or DP. With all due respect, let them answer and step back from the computer for this one.

What specifically about the list and the award is it that is unfair in your opinions or has been presented to the Executive Board as such.

Please also explain how your attrition at AAA has been addressed by the arbitrator.

It has been suggested more often than not that the AWA side was handed "the winning lottery ticket". As it appears the list went roughly by relative seniority, I am curious about those claims and the present appeals to national.

Ed

 

[Dogwood]

I have a question for the AAA pilots out there. That means the AAA pilots: not Whiskey, HP, + rate, TWA dude, Grog or DP. With all due respect, let them answer and step back from the computer for this one.

What specifically about the list and the award is it that is unfair in your opinions or has been presented to the Executive Board as such.

Please also explain how your attrition at AAA has been addressed by the arbitrator.

It has been suggested more often than not that the AWA side was handed "the winning lottery ticket". As it appears the list went roughly by relative seniority, I am curious about those claims and the present appeals to national.

Ed

The East brought the massive amounts of retirements to the table, and the arbitrator did not consider this at all. Some type of fence should have been put in place for this.

Also the furloughees should been considered in some way. 1800 on furlough is too many just to brush under the carpet, which is exactly what he did.

If I came back as a furloughee, the west should have been protected so my return did not damage them.

He did a relative position integration, with no consideration of anything else, except the east widebodies for 4 years.

Many east retirements result in a clear windfall for the west, which is in direct violation of ALPA Merger Policy.

DW
DOH - 1988
Furloughed

 

[EdTeachLives!]

Thanks DW.

One more question. Were there any active pilots that were not furloughed from the late 80's that were placed behind west pilots?

Ed

 

[abefly]

The East brought the massive amounts of retirements to the table, and the arbitrator did not consider this at all. Some type of fence should have been put in place for this.

Also the furloughees should been considered in some way. 1800 on furlough is too many just to brush under the carpet, which is exactly what he did.

If I came back as a furloughee, the west should have been protected so my return did not damage them.

He did a relative position integration, with no consideration of anything else, except the east widebodies for 4 years.

Many east retirements result in a clear windfall for the west, which is in direct violation of ALPA Merger Policy.

DW
DOH - 1988
Furloughed

My only question for the east guys is this....If this was such a concern then why wasn't that in your original argument to the arbitrator? Why did you continually try for date of hire which is a staple job to half the america west pilots? Even after the arbitrator said that was not going to work you continued for date of hire. The list is fair. Even with no fences the amount of attrition will put the america west pilots right where they would have been before the merger. Upgrade around 7 years. For the past two years there has been no movement at all on the west side while the east has been recalling. The list is fair and it will stick. As far as the furloughed pilots go. Furloughed is furloughed. I do feel bad for these pilots that had 18 years and were on the street, but that is due to the failing us airways prior to the merger. They came into the merger with no job. Dave odell was active and flying and there for he had something to offer. A seat. Not the hope of a seat as the furloughed pilots had. Alll that Prater and the big wigs at alpa are doing is giving the east pilots time to cool off before they say what they can do, which is give the list to parker. They have no choice. That is why it is called BINDING ARBITRATION! The east piots wanted this and they got what they asked for. Nicolau is 80 something years old and knows what he is doing. It is not like he made this decision overnight. He put hundreds of hours into listening to both sides and he came up with the most fair list. Now we need to move on and get a ta that benefits both sides of the company. Otherwise the comany wins.

 

[Dogwood]

My only question for the east guys is this....If this was such a concern then why wasn't that in your original argument to the arbitrator? Why did you continually try for date of hire which is a staple job to half the america west pilots? Even after the arbitrator said that was not going to work you continued for date of hire. The list is fair. Even with no fences the amount of attrition will put the america west pilots right where they would have been before the merger. Upgrade around 7 years. For the past two years there has been no movement at all on the west side while the east has been recalling. The list is fair and it will stick. As far as the furloughed pilots go. Furloughed is furloughed. I do feel bad for these pilots that had 18 years and were on the street, but that is due to the failing us airways prior to the merger. They came into the merger with no job. Dave odell was active and flying and there for he had something to offer. A seat. Not the hope of a seat as the furloughed pilots had. Alll that Prater and the big wigs at alpa are doing is giving the east pilots time to cool off before they say what they can do, which is give the list to parker. They have no choice. That is why it is called BINDING ARBITRATION! The east piots wanted this and they got what they asked for. Nicolau is 80 something years old and knows what he is doing. It is not like he made this decision overnight. He put hundreds of hours into listening to both sides and he came up with the most fair list. Now we need to move on and get a ta that benefits both sides of the company. Otherwise the comany wins.

I think this post was to the east, to ask a question. Not to start another debate. We've done enough of that.

This is going to be a long battle. I wish you all the best.

 

[Green]

I think this post was to the east, to ask a question. Not to start another debate. We've done enough of that.

This is going to be a long battle. I wish you all the best.

the battle is over Dogwood. the bitching has just begun.

 

[EdTeachLives!]

Green and Abe,

You both couldn't just shut up and color could you. Try sitting on your hands this time. You don't need to be stirring the crap just to make it stink. The AAA POV was all that was asked for so when you can't control yourselves like this all it does destroy your crediblity and hurt your case.

Ed

 

[Dogwood]

the battle is over Dogwood. the bitching has just begun.

No, the battle will be fought every day between the east and west, just like the north and south has for the last 20 years since the Pied / USAir Merger.

This arbitration deal is nothing compared to the future debates that are in your future. The MEC meeting rooms will be split on every issue.

My suggestion is for everybody to stay in their original crew bases, and life will be much better.

In fact the new MEC should vote in a new base freeze for the next 8 years.

DW

 

[ferlo]

AAA side was blinded by greed...and as usually happens to those folks, they got blindsided. The blame for this is solely, and singularly on the MEC of AAA. Decertify ALPA if you want, it won't change anything.

 

[Freight Dog]

I have a few questions for AAA guys ONLY:

1) What were your expectations for your furloughees? In other words, where did you expect they would land in the integration? Bear in mind, they are not employed - they only have a right to be called back. Do you place them above active pilots?

2) Where do you put a "junior" reserve narrowbody FO who just happened to have a DOH of 1988?

3) You said East offers "retirements." How do you figure bringing retirements to the table is relevant especially in light of people hired in the late 1980's only being reserve narrowbody FO's because that is all they could hold?
How would you address that in the integration? Bear in mind, you have to be fair to West side as well - no windfall.

I'm really curious about specifics. What does AAA group want? Again, you have to be fair to your West counterparts too. DOH merger means a windfall for the East - today "junior" narrowbody reserve FO is tomorrow's senior captain. Is that not a windfall?

I don't have any affiliations with either America West or USAirways or any commuters associated with any of them. I am trying to understand the logic that East guys are following.

I'd also like to only hear from the East side guys ONLY.

 

[AA717driver]

I'm sorry but if you are a 1989 USAir hire and you're sitting on furlough waiting for that big day when you get recalled and haven't gone out and gotten a better job, you deserve what you got.

And that's what you get for not paying attention to this F'ed up business for the past 18 years! TC

 

[JetMonkey]

You forgot me on your list!!! I feel so left out. :bawling:

 

[Green]

Green and Abe,

You both couldn't just shut up and color could you. Try sitting on your hands this time. You don't need to be stirring the crap just to make it stink. The AAA POV was all that was asked for so when you can't control yourselves like this all it does destroy your crediblity and hurt your case.

Ed

ouch.....but i don't like coloring Ed. I'm glad that you're working hard trying to solve the case...lol....

 

[A350]

My case is one of many....hired in 1989.....was supposed to retire in the top 50 of the AAA seniority list. Furloughed but with out a single new jet on the property for the next 20 years, I still end up @ #20 on the list and get to fly the 757/767 starting @ age 52 and the A330 starting at age 55. That is what attrition brings to the table.....a rapid progression up the list without any growth.

Now with the new list, I end up @ 800 or so. This makes it impossible to fly the A330 and even the 767 is questionable. Who will be taking my place? A West pilot who had no reasonable expectation of widebody flying sans the merger.

DOS was a reasonable point to merge the lists with the restrictions/fences in place, no West pilot would ever be displaced. The list as it is would be acceptable with larger, longer fences that preserve both groups pre merger expectations as far as attrition. It isn't the number on the list, it is where it places you 5, 10, and 15 years out. I would take the list as it is now with a larger fence on the widebodies as well as some way to protect my progression to where it was or even close to it. I think no matter how you slice it, going from # 20 to # 800 isn't even in the ballpark as far as a reasonable endgame.

Never before in seniority integrations have two lists at such opposite ends of the spectrum been placed together with such puny, ineffective fences.

A350

 

[AA717driver]

A350--I understand your reason for hanging around. But you would need 20 year fences to protect everyone. I just don't see any arbitrator doing that.

It was a crappy situation--forced marriage of two weak airlines with such lopsided seniority lists. TC

 

[vtwo]

What do you mean By "reasonable expectation" ?

Ther are no reasonable expectations when you are an employee. especially in aviation.
I don't buy the "reasonable expectations" argument.
Even the retired guys had reasonable expectation of the pensions they earned. now look how that worked out.

 

[Green]

My case is one of many....hired in 1989.....was supposed to retire in the top 50 of the AAA seniority list. Furloughed but with out a single new jet on the property for the next 20 years, I still end up @ #20 on the list and get to fly the 757/767 starting @ age 52 and the A330 starting at age 55. That is what attrition brings to the table.....a rapid progression up the list without any growth.

Now with the new list, I end up @ 800 or so. This makes it impossible to fly the A330 and even the 767 is questionable. Who will be taking my place? A West pilot who had no reasonable expectation of widebody flying sans the merger.

DOS was a reasonable point to merge the lists with the restrictions/fences in place, no West pilot would ever be displaced. The list as it is would be acceptable with larger, longer fences that preserve both groups pre merger expectations as far as attrition. It isn't the number on the list, it is where it places you 5, 10, and 15 years out. I would take the list as it is now with a larger fence on the widebodies as well as some way to protect my progression to where it was or even close to it. I think no matter how you slice it, going from # 20 to # 800 isn't even in the ballpark as far as a reasonable endgame.

Never before in seniority integrations have two lists at such opposite ends of the spectrum been placed together with such puny, ineffective fences.

A350

If you believe Parker's assertion that AWA would probably have had to restructure in BK then you also have to remember that he has stated multiple times that AAA would have certainly liquidated without the merger. He has leaked that AAA was in the process of liquidation when the merger was consumated. So your chances of retiring number 20 were slim to none. Those were the facts...

I have compassion for the terrible blows that AAA has taken but I don't buy the victim persona. You got the top 500 slots and nobody has moved backwards. Not bad for an airline on death's doorstep. I'm sure TWA pilots would have killed to get the same deal.

 

[eaglefly]

My case is one of many....hired in 1989.....was supposed to retire in the top 50 of the AAA seniority list. Furloughed but with out a single new jet on the property for the next 20 years, I still end up @ #20 on the list and get to fly the 757/767 starting @ age 52 and the A330 starting at age 55. That is what attrition brings to the table.....a rapid progression up the list without any growth.

Now with the new list, I end up @ 800 or so. This makes it impossible to fly the A330 and even the 767 is questionable. Who will be taking my place? A West pilot who had no reasonable expectation of widebody flying sans the merger.

DOS was a reasonable point to merge the lists with the restrictions/fences in place, no West pilot would ever be displaced. The list as it is would be acceptable with larger, longer fences that preserve both groups pre merger expectations as far as attrition. It isn't the number on the list, it is where it places you 5, 10, and 15 years out. I would take the list as it is now with a larger fence on the widebodies as well as some way to protect my progression to where it was or even close to it. I think no matter how you slice it, going from # 20 to # 800 isn't even in the ballpark as far as a reasonable endgame.

Never before in seniority integrations have two lists at such opposite ends of the spectrum been placed together with such puny, ineffective fences.

A350

Agree that U pilots should've gotten a better deal on widebody fences.

 

[The Victors]

Regardless of the backpack wearing junior AWA FO's rants, it's wrong to staple 1800 pilots to the bottom of the list. The fences should have been longer and the furloughees should have been slotted in.

 

[The Victors]

and yes, above awa junior FO's. What was there career expection going to be in an almost certain AWA bankruptcy without the merger?

 

[Dogwood]

Regardless of the backpack wearing junior AWA FO's rants, it's wrong to staple 1800 pilots to the bottom of the list. The fences should have been longer and the furloughees should have been slotted in.

Agreed. The east furloughees should have been slotted in, with protections for the west so as not to harm their expected upgrade progression either.

There was a much better way to do this, that would have kept both sides fairly content.

 

[BigMotorToter]

Never before in seniority integrations have two lists at such opposite ends of the spectrum been placed together with such puny, ineffective fences.

A350

Actually all you have to do is go back to 2001 and get educated about the TWA/AA seniority integration, and you will see that is has happened before. Our 1988 hires, All Captains, some on the 767 were stapled below probationary new hires.

We tried to appeal to ALPA National. We even traveled to Herndon and gave a power point presentation on what 1113 bankruptcy's were and how it was being used to ramrod a one sided seniority integration against us.

Maybe if the LEC reps. of each airline were looking out for the collective good of ALL ALPA pilots, instead of Delta plus a dollar, you would not be in this situation.

From one who has been there, I truly feel your pain. Good luck.

 

[vtwo]

Expectations?????????????

and yes, above awa junior FO's. What was there career expection going to be in an almost certain AWA bankruptcy without the merger?

What were the Pan Am career expectations, Braniff, Eastern, ect...
Vangaurd, Access air, Twa, American airlines, bla bla bla.

It's not fair I was expecting my first wife to follow through with our planed expectations, before she changed her plans, I was expecting my airline to give me a pension and health care after 60.

Don't expect things and then your feelings won't be hurt.
Now get back to work, your just an employee.

 

[BigMotorToter]

Aren't mergers also part of "career expectations".

 

[vtwo]

Aren't mergers also part of "career expectations".

Absolutely, also you should expect to be blindsided a couple of times.

Medical issues, Bankruptcy's, Scabs trying to undermine what you are fighting for, Management to LIE's to you.

Maintenance pencil whipping, Feds Changing their interpretation.Are the any More that I left out?

 

[A350]

Vtwo:

Your claim about my reasonable expectation has merit....but all I see from the West is arguements about this very thing and how this "preserves" their expectations......

Further, the assertions that AWA or AAA would have entered BK or liquidated without the merger are just assumptions that noone can validate with any degree of certainty. Just because Parker says it doesn't make it so. I have no doubt that if a deal with AWA wasn't done, AWA or AAA would have merged with different partners. The guy running AAA at the time was a money guy, not necessarily an airline guy. Parker has made it no secret he wants to merge, so his MO is the same as it is now. Of course this is just speculation, just like the liquidation of U and the BK of AWA. Further, if no deal is done and U did liquidate and AWA entered BK, I can only assume that save Dave would have been looking for work with all the U pilots....so that is what assumptions will get you.

As far as being blindsided, I think the AAA guys have been blindsided more than a few times.

The TWA/AMR deal was similar to this staple job, however the TWA pilots were unfortunately dealing with a different union. This was ALPA/ALPA. Not fair by any means, but different.

A350

 

[PHXFLYR]

USAir guys just don't get it. Never have.Never will.


PHXFLYR

 

[iflyhigh]

A350:

Just a question??

How done the list due you want to protect your guys on the East?????

A 1989 guy hired at US Air spent most of the 90's on furlough and was refurloughed in 2001 or 2002??? How much time in service???

Believe I have been furloughed from a Major, and I know what its like to have career expectations destroyed. Crap, I should be flying the 757/767 right now for UAL, but my career was put on hold for the same reasons US Air pilots were, BK.

I since have moved on and no its just part of the business. Take the emotion out of it and look at the picture. How far down the list does US Air guys get protected??

Plus how many pilots active are retiring, how many off of furlough, and the big questions how many captains in the next few years? If a majority of your retirements are not captain slots?? The captain slots are the main issue, because that brings upward mobility.

I know at UAL, 99% of the retirements are from captain seats.

Believe I am not trying to pick a fight, not looking at the picture from the outside and trying to understand..

 

[fr8doggie]

Thanks DW.

One more question. Were there any active pilots that were not furloughed from the late 80's that were placed behind west pilots?

Ed

A buddy of mine who was hired by Piedmont in July of 1987 (never furloughed) was placed behind a HP 2003 hire.

That kind of blows, I think.

 

[Green]

I wish everyone who thinks AAA got a raw deal could spend 10 minutes looking at the Us Airways proposed list. It basically stapled all of AWA behind virtually every AAA pilot. ?? I don't know what some of you guys are smoking but nobody wanted a piece of Us Airways in 2005. The airline was all but done and any likely deals would have involved buying chunks of AAA as nobody wanted the whole thing. You guys were radioactive and virtually every analyst and writer thought AWA had made the mistake of the decade picking up Us Airways. Before you trash the Nicalau award I suggest you read it first. I don't think he could have done a better job crafting a fair award.

A350

Reasonable expectations are hard to bank on in the airline industry. All those senior AWA captains that you wanted to staple below Furloughed AAA pilots were expecting to retire as 747 captains flying to Japan. So correct me if I'm wrong but AWA flew bigger airplanes than anything AAA ever had. You'll likely point out that we had a tiny fleet but I would counter that AAA's coveted 330's represent 3% of the fleet. Not a very impressive number.

Finally if we had been stapled in this deal we would have bitch#d and moaned but I guarantee we would have shown a lot more class than the AAA pilots who are threatening to throw some 40k jobs down the toilet because you didn't get your wish list. Pretty childish...I fail to see the earth shattering raw deal you supposedly got. Your top 500 pilots moved up on a percentage basis and every other active pilot stayed in basically the same relative spot. You aren't going to be able to make up years of furlough on the backs of AWA pilots, but that's not how Alpa merger policy works.