Thanks CJC3407

[Alert height]

Ironically, Q-400's will be unaffected by this rule since they are certificated for weights in excess of 60,000 lbs.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Do most airlines not have set criteria of when to turn on the ice protection? Maybe the Saab manuals have it in there for an AD, but I thought it was normal to have that stuff listed in the POM.

It's very well spelled out in our CR9 manual. A very well defined range for both ground and airborne ops. Plus the yellow ICE message that is very questionably accurate but whatever, it's not my fuel costs. ( the software update supposedly has been coming for a LONG time to make it more accurate, IE descending below 10k into AUS in August and it chimes, good luck getting ice in a freezer there.)

 

[JoeMerchant]

Remember the good old days when you used to look out the window....Oh well....

 

[bri5150]

Common sense dictates you turn on ice protection when it is icy...Silly concept I know, but that is common sense....

Is knowing the temp in which venturi effects within the Saab 340 engine cause the temp to lower enough to form ice common sense? I personally like having it spelled out. Less liability for me if something happens and I followed the procedures in the manual. I guess I'm not super pilot though.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Is knowing the temp in which venturi effects within the Saab 340 engine cause the temp to lower enough to form ice common sense? I personally like having it spelled out. Less liability for me if something happens and I followed the procedures in the manual. I guess I'm not super pilot though.

Can you see the engine intakes on the Saab?

 

[bri5150]

Can you see the engine intakes on the Saab?

Are there more places on an engine to get ice than just the intakes?

 

[Snaab]

On behalf of the entire Aviation Industry, Thanks!

Please enlighten me how 3407 is to "thank" for this?

 

[IBNAV8R]

Is knowing the temp in which venturi effects within the Saab 340 engine cause the temp to lower enough to form ice common sense? I personally like having it spelled out. Less liability for me if something happens and I followed the procedures in the manual. I guess I'm not super pilot though.

Are there more places on an engine to get ice than just the intakes?

If you're not already working for the FAA, you've missed your calling. Please, for the safety of your passengers, get out of commercial aviation.

 

[bri5150]

If you're not already working for the FAA, you've missed your calling. Please, for the safety of your passengers, get out of commercial aviation.

Huh? I should work for the FAA because I think it is good to have a set temperature when to turn the engine ice on? And that is detrimental to the safety of my passengers? Can you explain more please?

 

[IBNAV8R]

You should go to work for the FAA if you propose that pilot judgment, again, be written out of the equation.

1. Has there ever been an incident of reduced engine performance from icing that could NOT be detected at the inlet? (Of an aircraft built in the last 30 years).

2. Don't we ALREADY have specific criteria as to what constitutes "icing conditions"?

In recent years, 'headwork' and basic flying skills are being taken out of the equation. More and more we are finding that 'headwork' and basic flying skills are fast becoming a lost art - obvious only when it is needed the most (CJC3407, US1549, etc.).

No sane pilot could argue that TCAS was not a HUGE safety improvement but, at the same time, looking out the window is becoming a lost skill.

 

[bri5150]

You should go to work for the FAA if you propose that pilot judgment, again, be written out of the equation.

1. Has there ever been an incident of reduced engine performance from icing that could NOT be detected at the inlet? (Of an aircraft built in the last 30 years).

2. Don't we ALREADY have specific criteria as to what constitutes "icing conditions"?

In recent years, 'headwork' and basic flying skills are being taken out of the equation. More and more we are finding that 'headwork' and basic flying skills are fast becoming a lost art - obvious only when it is needed the most (CJC3407, US1549, etc.).

No sane pilot could argue that TCAS was not a HUGE safety improvement but, at the same time, looking out the window is becoming a lost skill.

Again, how is turning on the engine ice at +10c in visible moisture (company procedures) compromising passenger safety? Just because I like to have set temps for turning ice protection on doesn't mean I can't fly the airplane and don't look out the window. There are places on and in the aircraft I can't visually see (tail included). If there is a low pressure area inside the inlet that I can't see, then there may be ice there when outside OAT is above freezing. Having an engineer tell me when I should turn on ice protection before I can SEE the ice is a plus in my book.

 

[Clutch]

Gotten ice at +12 tat many times, for what it's worth.

 

[JAFI]

You should go to work for the FAA if you propose that pilot judgment, again, be written out of the equation.

1. Has there ever been an incident of reduced engine performance from icing that could NOT be detected at the inlet? (Of an aircraft built in the last 30 years).

2. Don't we ALREADY have specific criteria as to what constitutes "icing conditions"?

In recent years, 'headwork' and basic flying skills are being taken out of the equation. More and more we are finding that 'headwork' and basic flying skills are fast becoming a lost art - obvious only when it is needed the most (CJC3407, US1549, etc.).

No sane pilot could argue that TCAS was not a HUGE safety improvement but, at the same time, looking out the window is becoming a lost skill.

I agree about the lost art in some.

However - every aircraft, engine, and mod to that aircraft may be different to what a pilot "thinks" he/she knows from other aircraft. That is why they have type ratings and differences training. Having specific information from a company procedure or from the aircraft maker is critical to safe operation.

Don't guess - - - know......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Are there more places on an engine to get ice than just the intakes?

Bri5150, I was on the ATR for 14 years both pre and post Roselawn...I watched the ice procedure change at least 6 times.....It got absurd...

Now I'm supposed to look for a "magic 10 degrees TAT"....I've gotten ice above 10 degrees TAT, and no ice below 10 degrees...I'm tired of "recipe flying" over experiece....It is as simple as putting everything in nice black and white numbers for people who don't have the experience...

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree about the lost art in some.

However - every aircraft, engine, and mod to that aircraft may be different to what a pilot "thinks" he/she knows from other aircraft. That is why they have type ratings and differences training. Having specific information from a company procedure or from the aircraft maker is critical to safe operation.

Don't guess - - - know......

You're right, but in the 12 years I had an ATR type rating, the "experts" changed the icing procedure numerous times....It got absurd...Sorry, sometimes experience trumps this "recipe flying".....

 

[IBNAV8R]

The conventional wisdom of the 20 years ago was to wait for 1/4" to 1/2" of ice to accumulate before activating the wing boots. Then it was just to run it continuously at the first sign of ice. Ice bridging is supposedly a myth. OK, I can deal with that.

Then, after a certain accident, all our Brasilias were fitted with a new ice detector/alarm system to tell us when we were in icing conditions. It was called the Combined and Optimized Minimum Airspeed in Icing Reactor box. Got a lot of false alarms as well as times when we were building ice without it going off. Same thing with the "new" airplane I currently fly.

Increasingly, the trend is toward making EVERYTHING black and white. Trouble is that we live in a color world - And there's just no substitute for 'pilot "stuff"'.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The conventional wisdom of the 20 years ago was to wait for 1/4" to 1/2" of ice to accumulate before activating the wing boots. Then it was just to run it continuously at the first sign of ice. Ice bridging is supposedly a myth. OK, I can deal with that.

Then, after a certain accident, all our Brasilias were fitted with a new ice detector/alarm system to tell us when we were in icing conditions. It was called the Combined and Optimized Minimum Airspeed in Icing Reactor box. Got a lot of false alarms as well as times when we were building ice without it going off. Same thing with the "new" airplane I currently fly.

Increasingly, the trend is toward making EVERYTHING black and white. Trouble is that we live in a color world - And there's just no substitute for 'pilot "stuff"'.

Quit with the common sense...There is no room for that anymore..:>)

 

[100-1/2]

It is real nice when someone links your post in their reply, however redacts the
pertinent information replacing it instead with, "blah blah blah" then proceeds to
slanderously quote statements and implications nowhere to be found in the
redacted posts link? It is further absurd when others implicitly refer to slanderous
ilk in their own posts?

Have you ever wondered why the FAA never conducts studies or collects data
following implementation of these scandalous and fraudulent pursuits of safety?
There were three separate studies and findings between the NTSB and FAA from
1969 to 1972. Most notably and ironically, the largest and strongest justification
for the (then) extremely expensive "TCAS Tech" was not sought until after the first
DC9/Piper mash-up over Indianapolis. It was tabled and not successfully lobbied
until AFTER DEREGULATION and a nearly identical collision over Cerritos 15 years
later.

NATA Conducted a Study that wasn't real well known and scuttled by the FAA in
2003 when EGPWS was proposed to curb CFIT. NATA based their data collection
and justification AGAINST EGPWS for turboprops and larger aircraft because of the
expense and lack of performance in other safety "enhancing" measures such as
TCAS deployed by the FAA where they have never proven with a single official and
all encompassing study that MAC accidents and NMAC incidents had been reduced
per 100,000 flight hours FOLLOWING TCAS REQUIRED DEPLOYMENT?

Sure you may "Feel" safety has been ENHANCED, however, as has been said your
exterior windows are the most effective tool in detecting and avoiding traffic. Not
a day passes in the air where I hear a GA Aircraft near a high volume commercial
airport where a discrepancy exists between what that GA Aircraft Xponder is replying
to ATC and what altitude they are actually flying. Your TCAS is going to give false
"feelings" of safety if that Mode C is sending an altitude is outside of YOUR 6,000 feet
of conflict resolution. Vigilance and Diligence PEERING OUT THE WINDOW is 75%
of our business. NOTHING INSIDE the cockpit will ever kill you. EVERYTHING
OUTSIDE the window will.

I challenge you to find one study conducted by the FAA following ANY
MAJOR INITIATIVE where they justify a change/reduction in fatalities as the direct result
of a policy implementation. You will not find one, because the FAA ARROGANTLY
determines the regulatory vehicle they operate like Ted Kennedy in Chappaquiddick
need not be scrutinized because the FAA NEVER makes mistakes and CERTAINLY
will NEVER RETRACT ANY INSTITUTED POLICY regardless of the harm or detriment
such policy may foster from its future and over reliance when it comes to ADM
(Aeronautical Decision Making-for the ERAU Grads).

Cheers, DoinTime! You seem an a55bucket and fond of the regulatorily destructive
pursuit of our government and the 4th Branch of Agencies that can trace no real
purpose to create anything that positively contributes to the edification of our society
and the people in it. Their purposes are self-serving, self-loathing and enforce their
mediocre existence and threaten anyone who would challenge, contradict or confront
their designs.

100-1/2

 

[DoinTime]

Cheers, DoinTime! You seem an a55bucket and fond of the regulatorily.............

100-1/2

Assbucket? Whats that, a chair? Certainly you can insult me better than that considering the depth of your vocabulary and your affinity for the use of ALL CAPS.

 

[JAFI]

You're right, but in the 12 years I had an ATR type rating, the "experts" changed the icing procedure numerous times....It got absurd...Sorry, sometimes experience trumps this "recipe flying".....

Ya gotta start some where. A "recipe" is a start. And there are many "experts" and with more research, flying into different weather areas, just maybe ideas will change to improve the operation.

So have you written down and submitted your observations/procedures to send to the engineers? You could be famous.