Thanks Again ALPA

[Mr.B]

You and your fellow pilots voted for those scope concessions, not John Prater, not the Executive Council, and not the Executive Board. You made your own bed. Now lie in it.



Complaining about your union and you're so ignorant that you don't even know what you pay in dues? It's 1.95%, genius. Get informed.

Typo...my bad. Now kiss my ass. I don't don't need it from some internet coward.

 

[sgu]

Uggggly!

Whew, I am glad we went IBT....good luck all....

 

[CopilotDoug]

You think any union can protect you when liquidation in bankruptcy is eminent? Keep dreaming.

Wrong. I am merely pointing out the fantasy land your typical ALPA cheerleader lives in. Your arrogant posts seems to imply that ALPA is the one calling the shots. When ALPA speaks...Management snaps to attention. The reality of the matter? ALPA will get what Management gives them. Nothing more...often less.

As Rez always tells you, your expectations are never realistic. Learn to work within the system...

This is what boggles my mind. The System? You mean the system HEAVILY slanted in Management's favor? You're going to abide by the rules and expect change?

...and you can advance this profession back to what it used to be.

Did someone forget to tell that to the Mesa pilots?

Your crazy ideas about illegal work stoppages will lead nowhere.

I know pilots would never carry these actions out. When there is a line of applicants at Mesa, and you still have people paying for their jobs at GIA...you know the future of the industry is screwed. But hey, Johnny P. has his retirement pension all set up and he didn't have to produce one measurable result...Way to go ALPA!

 

[PCL_128]

The reality of the matter? ALPA will get what Management gives them. Nothing more...often less.

Yes, because I'm sure Fred Smith would have been happy to pay his pilots $300k a year if they didn't have a union fighting for it. :sarcasm:

This is what boggles my mind. The System? You mean the system HEAVILY slanted in Management's favor? You're going to abide by the rules and expect change?

If you don't like the rules, then you work within the system to change the rules. The problem we have is decades of anti-labor case law. The way to fix bad case law? Work with Congress and the President to pass new statutes that set the law back to the way it was originally intended, rather than the bastardized Republican anti-labor version it has become.

But hey, Johnny P. has his retirement pension all set up and he didn't have to produce one measurable result...Way to go ALPA!

Seems to me that he's produced pretty good results overall. Several non-union pilot groups have joined ALPA during his tenure, several non-ALPA groups have merged into ALPA, Alaska has a good TA, Hawaiian will soon have a good TA, and AirTran will follow soon after. There were certainly missteps along the way, but his legacy is shaping up to be pretty decent after all. He's earned his pension.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Then, 15 ALPA strikes at a "Legacies" in 31 years of a Regulated Industry with improving contracts for pilots.

Now, 4 ALPA strikes at "Legacies" in 31 years of of a Deregulated Industry with ONE in the past 12 years and NONE since 9/11, with contracts gutted.

Both periods under the RLA.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything." Alexander Hamilton, 1798

,


Savage,

So, what union do you belong to and how is that union working to better the profession for all of us? Thanks,

BD

 

[Redmeat]

ALPA is now like the UAW which was also once a proud powerful union. When the industry the union represents is essentially ready to go tango uniform you take the work that the company is offering or you don't. A strike in the airline biz these days essentially means the demise of the carrier...same as the auto industry. It may turn around in maybe 5, probably more like 10 years, but right now union dues is a waste of money unless you're a screw up and shooting holes in your AC or inducing confrontation with your uniform (hats), etc. If your a slacktard that needs your job saved on a regular basis, ALPA is great.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Yes, because I'm sure Fred Smith would have been happy to pay his pilots $300k a year if they didn't have a union fighting for it. :sarcasm:

And if FedEx wasn't profitable? ALPA is not the power house you and the other cheerleaders portray it to be. I'll go so far as to say an in-house Union at FedEx would have gotten similar results.

If you don't like the rules, then you work within the system to change the rules. The problem we have is decades of anti-labor case law. The way to fix bad case law? Work with Congress and the President to pass new statutes that set the law back to the way it was originally intended, rather than the bastardized Republican anti-labor version it has become.

Seemed to be pretty good right up to about the point of deregulation (Co-Authored by pro-labor Teddy Kennedy) Is the US Government beholden to the 60,000 or so ALPA pilots...or the remaining 300m citizens? ALPA's voice is but a whisper among the screams on Capitol Hill...but you won't hear this at any pro-ALPA Union Drives.

Seems to me that he's produced pretty good results overall. Several non-union pilot groups have joined ALPA during his tenure, several non-ALPA groups have merged into ALPA, Alaska has a good TA, Hawaiian will soon have a good TA, and AirTran will follow soon after.

Don't forget to give him credit for Comair's paycuts...Pinnacle STILL not having a contract...that abortion Mesa pilots call a "T/A", etc, etc, etc.

There were certainly missteps along the way, but his legacy is shaping up to be pretty decent after all. He's earned his pension.

Age 65 happened on his watch...but I know what you're going to say...there were bigger organizations pushing for it. Guess what? That is the story of ALPA in a nutshell...the runt of the litter...always getting elbowed out by bigger groups.

I know you need to do your brown nosing since you aspire to be an executive officer one day with ALPA...but you're in there pretty deep. Just make sure Rez doesn't let go of your ankles.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA is now like the UAW which was also once a proud powerful union. When the industry the union represents is essentially ready to go tango uniform you take the work that the company is offering or you don't. A strike in the airline biz these days essentially means the demise of the carrier...same as the auto industry. It may turn around in maybe 5, probably more like 10 years, but right now union dues is a waste of money unless you're a screw up and shooting holes in your AC or inducing confrontation with your uniform (hats), etc. If your a slacktard that needs your job saved on a regular basis, ALPA is great.

Satisfied needs are not motivators. Methinks you don't appreciate the standard obtained....

Wishing for a unionless profession to me, is like an 18 year declaring she is independent and can make it on her own..... IOW, the day after she moves out she thinks she will be just as well off as she was living at home...

 

[eaglesview]

Yeah, those record-shattering contracts at NWA, AAA, UAL, and DAL in the late-'90s and early-'00s were a real ass-kicking.

Hey scooter your post (number 26) was referring to RLA strikes so tell me about the one ALPA ran since the 80's that was successful. As for the contracts what they last, a year??? give me a break and get your head out of the ALPA sand box.

 

[PCL_128]

And if FedEx wasn't profitable?

So what you're saying is that you think a union should be able to get you massive pay raises even when a carrier is losing massive amounts of money and slipping towards liquidation? Get real.

ALPA produces results when it's possible to produce results. Had FedEx not been ALPA, then they wouldn't have gotten as good a contract in '06. Companies don't just hand over money to employees when they turn a profit, you have to fight for it.

I'll go so far as to say an in-house Union at FedEx would have gotten similar results.

The FDX pilots know better than you. They decertified ALPA in the early '90s because they thought they could do better themselves, and they created their own union called the FPA. After a few years of FPA failure, they realized that they had made a big mistake and voted in record numbers to bring back ALPA. They've had some of ALPA's highest approval ratings ever since.

Seemed to be pretty good right up to about the point of deregulation (Co-Authored by pro-labor Teddy Kennedy) Is the US Government beholden to the 60,000 or so ALPA pilots...or the remaining 300m citizens? ALPA's voice is but a whisper among the screams on Capitol Hill...but you won't hear this at any pro-ALPA Union Drives.

And despite your pessimism, ALPA produces results on Cap Hill. ALPA actually has the biggest PAC in the airline industry. ALPA contributes more money to politicians from ALPA-PAC than the ATA does.

Don't forget to give him credit for Comair's paycuts...Pinnacle STILL not having a contract...that abortion Mesa pilots call a "T/A", etc, etc, etc.

CMR - What don't you understand about bankruptcy?

PCL - You vote for Bush, you suffer the consequences of an anti-labor NMB. Things are about to change.

MAG - I think they got a pretty good deal. An 18 month agreement that fixed some of their biggest problems they had in their contract during a period of time when most people were expecting the company to file Chapter 7. Now they're only a year away from negotiations again under the Obama NMB when their company will likely be doing better. Smart strategy. I'm not surprised that you're not bright enough to understand that, though.

Age 65 happened on his watch...but I know what you're going to say...there were bigger organizations pushing for it.

No, that is one of the missteps that I referred to. I've always disagreed with Captain Prater about Age 65.

 

[PCL_128]

Hey scooter your post (number 26) was referring to RLA strikes so tell me about the one ALPA ran since the 80's that was successful.

NWA '98 and CMR '01 come to mind.

 

[CopilotDoug]

So what you're saying is that you think a union should be able to get you massive pay raises even when a carrier is losing massive amounts of money and slipping towards liquidation? Get real

Not saying that at all...just emphasizing the point that ALPA takes what management is willing to give them...just like ANY Union. What it boils down to is that there is nothing special or magical about the ALPA Logo.

ALPA produces results when it's possible to produce results. Had FedEx not been ALPA, then they wouldn't have gotten as good a contract in '06. Companies don't just hand over money to employees when they turn a profit, you have to fight for it.

The FDX pilots know better than you. They decertified ALPA in the early '90s because they thought they could do better themselves, and they created their own union called the FPA. After a few years of FPA failure, they realized that they had made a big mistake and voted in record numbers to bring back ALPA. They've had some of ALPA's highest approval ratings ever since.

While UPS and NetJets have shown that it can be done without ALPA. Why is ALPA so special again?

And despite your pessimism, ALPA produces results on Cap Hill. ALPA actually has the biggest PAC in the airline industry. ALPA contributes more money to politicians from ALPA-PAC than the ATA does.

And how do the PAC contributions size up against corporate contributions? I'm guessing they're not as much.

CMR - What don't you understand about bankruptcy?

Just want to make sure ALPA gets all the credit they deserve.

PCL - You vote for Bush, you suffer the consequences of an anti-labor NMB. Things are about to change.

Yes...with the economy in the toilet and Obama racing around the globe to appease tin pot dictators...ALPA will be in line for a while.

MAG - ...Now they're only a year away from negotiations again under the Obama NMB when their company will likely be doing better. Smart strategy. I'm not surprised that you're not bright enough to understand that, though.

I forgot, JO and his attorney only know how to play fair:laugh:

What's so special again about ALPA? Besides the magazine of course...

 

[PCL_128]

Not saying that at all...just emphasizing the point that ALPA takes what management is willing to give them...just like ANY Union. What it boils down to is that there is nothing special or magical about the ALPA Logo.

No, ALPA gets what they negotiate. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. Management is not benevolent. You have to fight for every scrap.

While UPS and NetJets have shown that it can be done without ALPA. Why is ALPA so special again?

NetJets isn't an airline, so I wouldn't expect them to need the Air Line Pilots Association. As for UPS, their contract doesn't match up to the FDX agreement that was negotiated by ALPA. I'd rather have ALPA representing me than the IPA if I needed help.

And how do the PAC contributions size up against corporate contributions? I'm guessing they're not as much.

I'm guessing you'd better do some better research next time.

What's so special again about ALPA?

Effectiveness.

 

[sgu]

I would not call ALPA "Effective"? In what way? How effective were they against age 65? USAir vs AWA? Atlas VS STN(AABO), Atlas vs Polar??
All they have done is screwed up!

 

[PHXFLYR]

All they do is "screw up ?? " Care to explain why 747 was recently placed into trusteeship. Why 1124 can't seem to get the severance money for the released Airborne guys their company owes them ? Hell, you just voted in a union that takes screwing up and elevates it to an art form.


PHXFLYR

 

[CopilotDoug]

No, ALPA gets what they negotiate. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. Management is not benevolent. You have to fight for every scrap.

And what ALPA negotiates is nothing over or above what any other Union would negotiate.

As for UPS, their contract doesn't match up to the FDX agreement that was negotiated by ALPA. I'd rather have ALPA representing me than the IPA if I needed help.

Why would they match up? Are they the same management team and pilot group? How many Management Pilots fly for FedEx? It's a comparison using false reasoning that You and Rez love to get hung up on. If you're going to use that...why not ask the reason for the contract disparities for ALPA represented carriers flying similar equipment? KittyHawk and FedEx???

I'm guessing you'd better do some better research next time.

...because you know it's true. And Rez will be the first to tell you that Money talks in D.C.

Effectiveness.

Maybe effectiveness at brainwashing...I can see why you're a poster child for the ALPA Youth.

Alas, I've taken up too much of your time. Time for you to get back to pointing the finger at the UAL pilots for the failures of ALPA. Maybe Rez will jump in and let them know they are ruining his contract.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And what ALPA negotiates is nothing over or above what any other Union would negotiate.

Why would they match up? Are they the same management team and pilot group? How many Management Pilots fly for FedEx? It's a comparison using false reasoning that You and Rez love to get hung up on. If you're going to use that...why not ask the reason for the contract disparities for ALPA represented carriers flying similar equipment? KittyHawk and FedEx???



...because you know it's true. And Rez will be the first to tell you that Money talks in D.C.



Maybe effectiveness at brainwashing...I can see why you're a poster child for the ALPA Youth.

Alas, I've taken up too much of your time. Time for you to get back to pointing the finger at the UAL pilots for the failures of ALPA. Maybe Rez will jump in and let them know they are ruining his contract.

Then don't apply to an ALPA carrier and don't be a member..... problem solved?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Then don't apply to an ALPA carrier and don't be a member..... problem solved?

Better still, why not push for decertification of ALPA?

 

[zman]

UAL MEC= voted in by UAL pilots

UAL Scope= given away by UAL MEC

ALPA= a law firm with an insurance branch

Its easier to blame others for your voting errors then to blame ALPA national.

 

[bluefin]

If UAL pilots do have a chance to strike, lets see what kind of unity we have in the industry. How many express carriers out there are represented by Alpa? or for that matter represented by a union? Are these carriers going to respect the line? remember we are all unionized, right. The majority of this is UAL pilots fault. When the rj first appeared, it was considered beneath them to even think about flying the 50 seater. Now its too late to do one thing about it except jet for jobs and sitting in the right seat for 20 bucks an hr. This scope train for UAL has left the station and is not returning. The only fight left is other carriers that have scope, is to fight and keep it in check. Pilots are their own worst enemies.