Tell 'em what they've won Bob!

[DarnNearaJet]

There is a big difference between:

1) We will hire you if you have the following qualifications: blah, blah, blah hours, blah degree, blah type-rating.

2) We will hire you if you pay us $blah.

 

[YaMama]

You say potato ...

People who are pointing out that distinction between paying for a Commercial certificate and "PFT" is basically a matter of semantics are right on. I've heard enough of people whining "You're dragging us all down by accepting xyz job." It's supply and demand, folks - that's the way it's supposed to work in a free enterprise economy. You don't want that job, fine - but don't make moral judgments about another guy who's making his own choice.

When people say "Nobody should ever PFT, and if they do I hope they get stuck with the bottom feeder they deserve," what I'm hearing is essentially a wish that we should have a nationwide pilot's union. With some rules like "No pilot with a commercial certificate shall operate an aircraft except under these conditions of employment ..." and if they break a rule they're blacklisted. Now, maybe that's not such a bad idea ... whether it's feasible or not is another question. But until it happens, it's free enterprise out there, supply and demand, every man for himself. Caveat emptor, and beware of the dogs. You don't like it, stop complaining and figure out how to start a union.

Please note that I'm not defending the company whose "job post" started this thread - I'm all for discussing the pros and cons of different jobs, pseudo jobs, type rating outfits, whatever. It's one thing to point out that a certain company is run by sleazebags who try to profit by treating their employees like $hit, it's another thing to make the whiny "quit dragging us all down" argument.

 

[Timebuilder]

You don't want that job, fine - but don't make moral judgments about another guy who's making his own choice.

Let me give you a little feedback.

People make judgements, moral and otherwise, every day. It's part and parcel of being human. In fact, it's a necessity to successful living.

Everyone who makes a choice is subject to the reaction of others. If he makes what most people think of as bad choices, he is then stigmatized. Good choices, and he is applauded, even admired.

My purpose, speaking only for myself, is to help eager young pilots to make, IMNHO, good choices with regard to PFT. Certainly, even the most objective person must admit that every commercial pilot job that becomes a PFT position is a loss of a paying job to pilots as a group. We can argue about whether the piloting profession is lowered becuase of PFT, but we must also agree that if sufficient number of new pilots are well informed about PFT and its repercussions, then by the same token there will be too few pilots available who will be willing to take a PFT position, and the practice will become far less widespread. The result? More avalaible piloting jobs that pay a wage to the pilot, and fewer "jobs" where the young hopeful is exploited.

You see, this is a part of the "free market". Knowlege is power. By being informed, you become empowered.

Use the power.

 

[YaMama]

Timebuilder,

First, thanks for the reasoned tone of your reply. I was expecting a lot more flame and a lot less thought than that.

if sufficient number of new pilots are well informed about PFT and its repercussions, then by the same token there will be too few pilots available who will be willing to take a PFT position, and the practice will become far less widespread. The result? More avalaible piloting jobs that pay a wage to the pilot, and fewer "jobs" where the young hopeful is exploited.

I'm all for pilots being educated about exploitative employers, or "employers," but I don't see what's so uniquely heinous about what's commonly called PFT. It's just another point on the spectrum of what people will do to get ahead in this industry. True, there may be a strong correlation between PFT and sleazebag companies, but it's not an absolute correlation. Anyway, I think it's interesting to put this "let's inform the new pilots about PFT" into the union context. It's almost like you're trying to enforce a de facto union with at least one rule - "Thou shalt not PFT." It's just that so many important things are missing - there's been no formal discussion, no voting, no leaders, no way to inform everybody about rules - and it's not fair to enforce union sanctions on pilots without all the other trappings of a union.

Everyone who makes a choice is subject to the reaction of others. If he makes what most people think of as bad choices, he is then stigmatized. Good choices, and he is applauded, even admired.

That's true, but I don't think tactical decisions about how to advance one's aviation career deserve to have that kind of value judgment attached to them. By the logic of the rabid anti-PFTers, we should all be snubbing anyone who would accept a job for one penny less (or one penny more of training) because "it drags us all down. Civilian? Get lost, scumbag. While you were spending $30k on your ratings, we in the military were getting paid to do the same thing. If you louses wouldn't PFT, the airlines would have no choice but to do the right thing, which is hire and train people with zero hours, after hiring us military guys first of course." [satire]

Anyway, I have to admit that this particular thread has been much more about commenting on the specific company at hand than mindless PFT raving, but I've read enough of that stuff in here that I finally had to say something about it.

-YM

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

I sometimes try to explain the difference between PFT and paying for instruction for basic certificates. Sometimes, I just don't have the patience. Bobby does a good job at making this clear, so if you have doubts, just read his posts again, and search for his answers and some of mine by using the search button.

Thanx, Mr. Time.

PFT hardly ever leads to a real job. It's a "program" where you are building "expereince". In addition, you are displacing an otherwise qualified pilot who would have been paid, not paying for this position. Almost always, this is a commercial bottom feeder operator who is using this "program" to cut his costs of operation, hoping to take advantage of the inexpereinced and the uninitiated young pilots who are hot to trot for that 121 job, or turbine time, or the ability to say "I'm a professional pilot".

Honest to G-d, this is P-F-T in a nutshell, stripped of all the (subjective) moral and ethical discussion and (cautionary) fraud warnings.

I'll try to boil down P-F-T ethics and morals, and fraud. P-F-T brings down pilots overall because it proves to penny-pinching, disrespectful, and probably shady, management that they get pilots for a song - that some pilots will do anything for a job, or a "job," beg for it, even pay for it. If all pilots were to eschew P-F-T, perhaps management would treat pilots somewhat fairly. That ain't gonna happen because there will always be someone who will P-F-T. Moreover, plain and simple, getting a job and paying the employer just goes against the grain. I never heard of such a thing until I was involved in professional aviation for a few years.

Fraud should be manifestly clear. Companies are in the business of making money; why would they have P-F-T in the first place? To save money on training. So, isn't in the company's best (nefarious) interest to make as much money as it can off its trainees? In other words, these companies may try to maximize its P-F-T earnings by washing out as many trainees as possible, artificially, and not return their money. Accordingly, you will never know for sure if you're getting a fair shake. The conflict of interest in the training department should be apparent.

This has been one of the better P-F-T discussions.

 

[Flechas]

F**K PFT

i dont get it how some people still think that PFT is a good way to go, it only makes our proffession cheaper, it makes us look like cheap prostitutes, might as well go ahead and bend over at the interview. all you guys that like the PFT way, get some self respect, this is like paying a woman to be your wife, thats lame and low. im not saying you guys are not good pilots, you may be good or bad, who cares, the "employer" doesnt care, he only cares that you are paying for what he should be paying, just do the math, that looks appealig to them, so they will end up making it a normal thing to do. love what you do and make it a very noble thing to do, we have worked very hard to get where we are, lets not get degraded like that.

fly safe, flechas

 

[YaMama]

I guess it was bound to happen eventually

Yeah, well I think that anyone who paid for their double I or MEI must be a desperate A$$-raped prostitute (my employer paid for mine). You wouldn't know anyone like that, would you Flechas?

It's all a matter of degrees, bud. There will always be somebody who paid for more training than you did, and somebody who paid for less. So judge not lest ye be judged, and remember that you're in a glass cockpit yourself before you go around throwing stones.

 

[Timebuilder]

It's all a matter of degrees, bud.

Ah, you have just stumbled upon a kernel of truth.

In this case, the degree is easy to determine: are you paying for the right to sit in a cockpit, or being forced to pay for training which is by overwhelming industry standard the responsibility of your employer? Is this called something like "first officer program" or some variant of that?

PFT is easy to spot. Anyone who is confused about what it is can feel welcome to post a situation, and many of us will help you.

 

[Flechas]

yamama,
i agree that some people pay for more than others, and when it's only for personal gain is ok(getting more ratings, etc) but when you are being trained for a position that will generate income to somebody else, and you are being trained because you were hired, thats what i don't agree with, or even worse, when you pay for flying a plane full of pax, doesn't get any lower. the only reason i disagree with the whole idea of PFT, specially F/O programs, is because if people woldn't pay for those positions, those airlines would have to hire pilots to do that job. this means more jobs and better paychecks for us.

flechas

 

[FL240]

QUOTE]PFT is easy to spot. Anyone who is confused about what it is can feel welcome to post a situation, and many of us will help you.[/QUOTE]


I think there is a distinct difference in paying to acquire ratings such as your CFI, commercial, or multiengine ratings, than paying to go work for someone. You need some/most of these ratings to enter the profession at any level. We all know that you have to build upon your experience through instructing, flying cargo, traffic watch, throwin skydivers out the back...etc ect. When you have a good measure of experience to bring to the table I don't see how anyone could ask you to pay for a type, recurrent, or any portion of that training. Moreover I can't believe that anyone actually agrees to do so! As far as SW being PFT...I think that's a stretch.

 

[varicam]

If folks are having trouble distinguishing SWA from a PFT company, maybe the following will shed some light:


SWA=You bring to the table a pilot certificate containing a B-737 type rating. You present your resume, certificates, logbooks, etc. to the interviewer. If hired, FAA-required training will be provided by SWA at their expense.

PFT=You bring to the table a pilot certificate that may or may not contain a B-737 type rating. You present your resume, certificates, logbooks, etc., and a check to the interviewer. If hired, the check you presented will pay for FAA-required training.

 

[wingnutt]

BINGO, we have a winner! varicam just nailed it (barring all the other drawn out posts) on the head.

SWA=you dont pay the company a dime. they dont care how you got the type, be it; military, previous job, or on your own.

PFT=you actually pay the company you want to "work" for.

...thats about as simple as it gets

 

[bobbysamd]

SWA and P-F-T

SWA=You bring to the table a pilot certificate containing a B-737 type rating. You present your resume, certificates, logbooks, etc. to the interviewer. If hired, FAA-required training will be provided by SWA at their expense.

PFT=You bring to the table a pilot certificate that may or may not contain a B-737 type rating. You present your resume, certificates, logbooks, etc., and a check to the interviewer. If hired, the check you presented will pay for FAA-required training.

(emphasis added)

At least someone gets it. Seconded. Excellent, and elegant, analysis.

I still would submit, however, that you could forego your resume, certficates and logbooks and just bring the check. That's the only qualification they care about. That's one reason why P-F-T is such a sham.

 

[B190Captain]

If folks are having trouble distinguishing SWA from a PFT company, maybe the following will shed some light:


SWA=You bring to the table a pilot certificate containing a B-737 type rating. You present your resume, certificates, logbooks, etc. to the interviewer. If hired, FAA-required training will be provided by SWA at their expense.

PFT=You bring to the table a pilot certificate that may or may not contain a B-737 type rating. You present your resume, certificates, logbooks, etc., and a check to the interviewer. If hired, the check you presented will pay for FAA-required training.

SWA=You bring to the table a pilot certificate containing a B-737 type rating. You present your resume, certificates, logbooks, etc. to the interviewer. If hired, FAA-required training will be provided by SWA at their expense. If you do not have a 737 type rating that in most casesYOU PAID FOR!! You do not get hired. Please exclude the candidates that have obtained a 737 type from another employer.

If I send my resume to SWA and do not have a type rating, I do not have a chance in hell even if my experience and credentials exceed a candidate with a type. Not having a type is what hinders me from even being considered for employment at SWA.

The only way you can classify a company that is not PFT is a company that you bring to the table your resume, certificates, logbooks, etc. to the interviewer. If hired, FAA-required training will be provided by that particular company at their expense, INCLUDING TYPE RATINGS REQUIRED.

It is not required by the FAA for a entry level FO to have a type rating, therefore, training for a type for SWA is money out of YOUR POCKET. That my friend is PFT (Pay For Type) IMO, it's PFT no matter how you look at it.

For example Exec Jet even though they are not 121 they do require all pilots, no matter what seat, have a type for the aircraft flown. They do not require a type when you interview because THEY PAY FOR THE TYPE!!! not you.

The bottom line is if money leaves your pocket for training as a condition for employment, like the type requirement at SWA, then it is PFT.

Fly Safe!!!

 

[B190Captain]

BINGO, we have a winner! varicam just nailed it (barring all the other drawn out posts) on the head.

SWA=you dont pay the company a dime. they dont care how you got the type, be it; military, previous job, or on your own.

PFT=you actually pay the company you want to "work" for.

...thats about as simple as it gets

"or on your own."

Well those 67,000 dimes leave your pocket to yet another company to get the type!! (est. $6,700.00 for a 737 type)

 

[YaMama]

PFT is easy to spot.

Well, I think the continuing debate over whether SWA is PFT or not shows that it isn't. What is fairly easy to spot are the shady operators who are looking to make a few quick bucks by exploiting employees (and probably customers too). And when we get fired up about these guys, and warn other pilots to stay away from them, we are behaving as we should. But the central question is not "Is it PFT?" but "Is it a good company to work for?"

I would love to see one of the PFT zealots go into hysterics about how SWA should take their lousy job and shove it, must be a terrible company to work for, etc. They would be laughed into the next time zone.

the only reason i disagree with the whole idea of PFT, specially F/O programs, is because if people woldn't pay for those positions, those airlines would have to hire pilots to do that job. this means more jobs and better paychecks for us.

This is back to whining about the law of supply and demand (or the lack of a nationwide pilots' union). You know, back in 2000 I heard a lot of employers whining about how there was a CFI shortage - what they meant was there was a shortage of CFIs willing to hang around the FBO for 80 hours a week, teach in crappy equipment, and put up with bitchy management for the bargain rate of $12,000 a year (always somebody whining about supply and demand). The economic pendulum swings back and forth, and yes it sucks to be on the wrong end of the swing, as we pilots are now, but that's the way this game is played. Companies trying to exploit pilots is just a symptom, it's not the cause.

 

[YaMama]

Here's a good one.

Just saw this job post on climb to 350:

CFII needed in West Texas. 300 TT. If you are from West Texas it is a plus. Low time CFII's need not hesitate to apply. Duties include, Instruction, Maintenance scheduling, and light office work. Humble individuals wanting to build time fast preffered. No calls, FAX only. When applying, ref: climbto350.com

Gotta love the way they emphasize "low-time," "build time fast" and "humble." I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that this guy is a scumbag looking to exploit the pants off of some poor kid. Is it PFT? Of course not. Is it deserving of our scorn nonetheless? Heelll yes.

 

[bobbysamd]

Re: Here's a good one.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that this guy is a scumbag looking to exploit the pants off of some poor kid. Is it PFT? Of course not. Is it deserving of our scorn nonetheless? Heelll yes.

Not to mention that without a doubt in my $0.02 opinion that the office work and admin duties will be uncompensated. That is fine, up to a point - that is part of paying your dues, and you gain experience which you can list on your resume. It crosses the line if you are expected to do these things for free for too many hours.

 

[climbhappy]

eagleflip, nc state got their butts whooped right here in my home town yesterday. that avatar might be in need of refreshment!

i know the guy who is running vision. any one willing to pay for a seat is a total loser right now. your pulling onto the highway of airline flying by cutting in the the jam from the woods. y'ain't goin nowhere dadburnit. so get get real!

 

[CatYaaak]

I am confused... wouldn't southwest requiring a type be like most corporate flight departments. Don't most companies hiring pilots into a G-V expect that you are typed in the A/C? Doesn't seem very P-F-T to me...

It's NOT like most corporate fight departments that require a type-rating, because those that do will undoubtedly also require along with it TIME-in-type, not just the rating where the ink is still wet. They seek experience. For a flight department that is sending their pilots to training on a full-service contract anyway, a type-rating alone is essentially worthless. Go spend 22K on that G-V type-rating and see how far it gets you.

As far as I know, SWA is the only place that considers a no-experience type-rating worth more than the paper it's printed on. All in all, it's a joke that everyone keeps falling for, cuz you ain't gonna be able to sell it anywhere else.