Tell 'em what they've won Bob!

[ellsworb]

Good point about SWA being like many other corporate departments. Also, SWA offers a number of scholarships each year to walk across the street from teh people center to get a type. All it takes is asking. Lets see a TRUE PFT do that for their applicants.

 

[Bake]

PPL, instrument, commercial, ATP, BFR's, checkrides with examiners. Didn't most of you pay for these? Isn't this training? I don't know but sounds to me like you are complaining about having to CONTINUE to pay for training. Hey, I don't blame you. I paid for all these too and then went to the military where they paid you (although, you pay for it with your life instead of your money). Look back on those things you paid for and all the money you invested in them, and figure out what those ratings have given you in return and I think you will find that the rate of return on your investment is horrible. Now look at the 737 type. 7300.00 dollars is what I paid, got hired by SWA and in one year my rate of return on the investment is incredible. This is the sensible way to look at it, WHAT IS THE RETURN ON THE INVESTMENT? But just like the market there is some risk, You might not get hired. That 7300 dollars is probably a drop in the bucket compared to what you have already paid, so it basically comes down to "IS IT WORTH THE RISK?". This LAS ad sounds like it has a horrible return on your investment.

I take a stand on many things, for instance I will not drink Miller Lite, ever, never will, for some reasons that I will not discuss. And if that is the way you feel about the type rating I can't help you or blame you for taking your stance on the issue. But I do ask you to look at the potential reward for making the investment, it really is incredible.

Bake

 

[bobbysamd]

Pay-for-training v. Pay-for-training

PPL, instrument, commercial, ATP, BFR's, checkrides with examiners. Didn't most of you pay for these? Isn't this training?

No, earning your initial certificates is not the same as P-F-T.

Unless someone will train you completely for free (I'm not counting military), everyone must remit payment in return for receiving training appropriate to their certificates. No matter what form it takes, it boils down to renting aircraft and paying instructor(s). It's the same as going to college or any other form of vocational training. The P-F-T controversy comes in when an employer requires as a condition of employment that you remit payment for its company training, with that training being esoteric and specific to that company. In other words, you don't earn a tangible credential from that training.

I realize this is a strict definition. I would say that the Las Vegas job that started this thread still would be P-F-T. Although you would get a type rating, the place is specifying where it must be earned and is specifying that you must earn the type to be "employed." Reread the ad and you will see why I put "employed" in parens. This is not a real job. It is a way for this company to establish itself without having to pay to train some of its pilots. The "pay" is nominal, and may not even be minimum wage. I question the veracity of the statement where P-F-T FOs will be considered for permanent employment. This "job" is not the same as Southwest. It is P-F-T in every way.

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

I just cant leave this one alone..Da#n my weak soul!!

They wont let you drive a car without a license that you have to pay for and sign over some of your basic rights..

They wont let you fly a C-152 unless you have a license that you paid for and signed over some of your basic rights..

They wont let you practice as an MD unless you get a license that you paid for and sign over some of your basic rights..

They wont let you work as a Microsoft tech unless you have paid to become Microsoft certified and sign over huge amounts of your personal rights..

The military will not let you fly an F-16 or F-18 unless you have a four year degree that you paid for,sign away major portions of your life,and make you give up most of your basic rights as a citizen...

They will not let you fly a Turbojet aircraft carrying passengers unless you have an ATP and all the flight training and flight time that you more than likely paid for major portions of in addition to giving up some of your basic rights..

Another way to look at it..

A guy early in his collage years decides that he wants to be an airline pilot..
He decides to let Uncle Sam teach him how to fly a 737 at the cost of 8 to 10 years of his life after paying for a four year degree..He gets out and gets a job with one of the Big Four and makes the big bucks up until he gets put on the street due to the next downturn..

The next guy works at flying all the "crappy" jobs picking up time along the way and buys himself a CFI,Multi,ATP, and over a period of 8 to 10 years gets to the point of being able to apply to the Big Four..All this, in many cases, after having paid for a four year degree with no idea of where or how he might get a job..

They both meet one day on the street..But thats another story..

The question that comes to my mind is this..

Why all of a sudden do we think that some one like SWA requiring a type rating in a 737 is a big deal?

Its not PFT..

Its a requirment for hiring..

Just like having to have the First class medical and the ATP with 1000 PIC jet..

They dont care how you got it or if you paid for it..

But..They wont hire you without it..

How is this different than all the majors requiring you to have a four year degree that..you guessed it..most of us had to pay for and none of us had a job offer?

You can try to split hairs all day in order to make your weak argument work against the SWA type requirment..

But...It never was..never will be..Anywhere near a PFT or a buy a job program..

And like it or not..We have ALL paid in some way ..at some point..to get into this profession..


Mike

 

[Timebuilder]

And like it or not..We have ALL paid in some way ..at some point..to get into this profession..

You're right. If we didn't have EZPass here on the east coast turnpikes, I might find myself dropping a live chicken into a basket in lieu of the change. Somehow, we pay for a lot of things.

I sometimes try to explain the difference between PFT and paying for instruction for basic certificates. Sometimes, I just don't have the patience. Bobby does a good job at making this clear, so if you have doubts, just read his posts again, and search for his answers and some of mine by using the search button. There's a lot of contention over this, but the basics are always the same.

PFT hardly ever leads to a real job. It's a "program" where you are building "expereince". In addition, you are displacing an otherwise qualified pilot who would have been paid, not paying for this position. Almost always, this is a commercial bottom feeder operator who is using this "program" to cut his costs of operation, hoping to take advantage of the inexpereinced and the uninitiated young pilots who are hot to trot for that 121 job, or turbine time, or the ability to say "I'm a professional pilot". What these kids don't know is that the title "professional" has many meanings beyond becoming a required crewmember for an air carrier.

But I digress. Use the search button, and don't PFT.

I now relinquish control of my soapbox to the next poster.

Good day.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

There is a big difference between:

1) We will hire you if you have the following qualifications: blah, blah, blah hours, blah degree, blah type-rating.

2) We will hire you if you pay us $blah.

 

[YaMama]

You say potato ...

People who are pointing out that distinction between paying for a Commercial certificate and "PFT" is basically a matter of semantics are right on. I've heard enough of people whining "You're dragging us all down by accepting xyz job." It's supply and demand, folks - that's the way it's supposed to work in a free enterprise economy. You don't want that job, fine - but don't make moral judgments about another guy who's making his own choice.

When people say "Nobody should ever PFT, and if they do I hope they get stuck with the bottom feeder they deserve," what I'm hearing is essentially a wish that we should have a nationwide pilot's union. With some rules like "No pilot with a commercial certificate shall operate an aircraft except under these conditions of employment ..." and if they break a rule they're blacklisted. Now, maybe that's not such a bad idea ... whether it's feasible or not is another question. But until it happens, it's free enterprise out there, supply and demand, every man for himself. Caveat emptor, and beware of the dogs. You don't like it, stop complaining and figure out how to start a union.

Please note that I'm not defending the company whose "job post" started this thread - I'm all for discussing the pros and cons of different jobs, pseudo jobs, type rating outfits, whatever. It's one thing to point out that a certain company is run by sleazebags who try to profit by treating their employees like $hit, it's another thing to make the whiny "quit dragging us all down" argument.

 

[Timebuilder]

You don't want that job, fine - but don't make moral judgments about another guy who's making his own choice.

Let me give you a little feedback.

People make judgements, moral and otherwise, every day. It's part and parcel of being human. In fact, it's a necessity to successful living.

Everyone who makes a choice is subject to the reaction of others. If he makes what most people think of as bad choices, he is then stigmatized. Good choices, and he is applauded, even admired.

My purpose, speaking only for myself, is to help eager young pilots to make, IMNHO, good choices with regard to PFT. Certainly, even the most objective person must admit that every commercial pilot job that becomes a PFT position is a loss of a paying job to pilots as a group. We can argue about whether the piloting profession is lowered becuase of PFT, but we must also agree that if sufficient number of new pilots are well informed about PFT and its repercussions, then by the same token there will be too few pilots available who will be willing to take a PFT position, and the practice will become far less widespread. The result? More avalaible piloting jobs that pay a wage to the pilot, and fewer "jobs" where the young hopeful is exploited.

You see, this is a part of the "free market". Knowlege is power. By being informed, you become empowered.

Use the power.

 

[YaMama]

Timebuilder,

First, thanks for the reasoned tone of your reply. I was expecting a lot more flame and a lot less thought than that.

if sufficient number of new pilots are well informed about PFT and its repercussions, then by the same token there will be too few pilots available who will be willing to take a PFT position, and the practice will become far less widespread. The result? More avalaible piloting jobs that pay a wage to the pilot, and fewer "jobs" where the young hopeful is exploited.

I'm all for pilots being educated about exploitative employers, or "employers," but I don't see what's so uniquely heinous about what's commonly called PFT. It's just another point on the spectrum of what people will do to get ahead in this industry. True, there may be a strong correlation between PFT and sleazebag companies, but it's not an absolute correlation. Anyway, I think it's interesting to put this "let's inform the new pilots about PFT" into the union context. It's almost like you're trying to enforce a de facto union with at least one rule - "Thou shalt not PFT." It's just that so many important things are missing - there's been no formal discussion, no voting, no leaders, no way to inform everybody about rules - and it's not fair to enforce union sanctions on pilots without all the other trappings of a union.

Everyone who makes a choice is subject to the reaction of others. If he makes what most people think of as bad choices, he is then stigmatized. Good choices, and he is applauded, even admired.

That's true, but I don't think tactical decisions about how to advance one's aviation career deserve to have that kind of value judgment attached to them. By the logic of the rabid anti-PFTers, we should all be snubbing anyone who would accept a job for one penny less (or one penny more of training) because "it drags us all down. Civilian? Get lost, scumbag. While you were spending $30k on your ratings, we in the military were getting paid to do the same thing. If you louses wouldn't PFT, the airlines would have no choice but to do the right thing, which is hire and train people with zero hours, after hiring us military guys first of course." [satire]

Anyway, I have to admit that this particular thread has been much more about commenting on the specific company at hand than mindless PFT raving, but I've read enough of that stuff in here that I finally had to say something about it.

-YM

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

I sometimes try to explain the difference between PFT and paying for instruction for basic certificates. Sometimes, I just don't have the patience. Bobby does a good job at making this clear, so if you have doubts, just read his posts again, and search for his answers and some of mine by using the search button.

Thanx, Mr. Time.

PFT hardly ever leads to a real job. It's a "program" where you are building "expereince". In addition, you are displacing an otherwise qualified pilot who would have been paid, not paying for this position. Almost always, this is a commercial bottom feeder operator who is using this "program" to cut his costs of operation, hoping to take advantage of the inexpereinced and the uninitiated young pilots who are hot to trot for that 121 job, or turbine time, or the ability to say "I'm a professional pilot".

Honest to G-d, this is P-F-T in a nutshell, stripped of all the (subjective) moral and ethical discussion and (cautionary) fraud warnings.

I'll try to boil down P-F-T ethics and morals, and fraud. P-F-T brings down pilots overall because it proves to penny-pinching, disrespectful, and probably shady, management that they get pilots for a song - that some pilots will do anything for a job, or a "job," beg for it, even pay for it. If all pilots were to eschew P-F-T, perhaps management would treat pilots somewhat fairly. That ain't gonna happen because there will always be someone who will P-F-T. Moreover, plain and simple, getting a job and paying the employer just goes against the grain. I never heard of such a thing until I was involved in professional aviation for a few years.

Fraud should be manifestly clear. Companies are in the business of making money; why would they have P-F-T in the first place? To save money on training. So, isn't in the company's best (nefarious) interest to make as much money as it can off its trainees? In other words, these companies may try to maximize its P-F-T earnings by washing out as many trainees as possible, artificially, and not return their money. Accordingly, you will never know for sure if you're getting a fair shake. The conflict of interest in the training department should be apparent.

This has been one of the better P-F-T discussions.

 

[Flechas]

F**K PFT

i dont get it how some people still think that PFT is a good way to go, it only makes our proffession cheaper, it makes us look like cheap prostitutes, might as well go ahead and bend over at the interview. all you guys that like the PFT way, get some self respect, this is like paying a woman to be your wife, thats lame and low. im not saying you guys are not good pilots, you may be good or bad, who cares, the "employer" doesnt care, he only cares that you are paying for what he should be paying, just do the math, that looks appealig to them, so they will end up making it a normal thing to do. love what you do and make it a very noble thing to do, we have worked very hard to get where we are, lets not get degraded like that.

fly safe, flechas

 

[YaMama]

I guess it was bound to happen eventually

Yeah, well I think that anyone who paid for their double I or MEI must be a desperate A$$-raped prostitute (my employer paid for mine). You wouldn't know anyone like that, would you Flechas?

It's all a matter of degrees, bud. There will always be somebody who paid for more training than you did, and somebody who paid for less. So judge not lest ye be judged, and remember that you're in a glass cockpit yourself before you go around throwing stones.

 

[Timebuilder]

It's all a matter of degrees, bud.

Ah, you have just stumbled upon a kernel of truth.

In this case, the degree is easy to determine: are you paying for the right to sit in a cockpit, or being forced to pay for training which is by overwhelming industry standard the responsibility of your employer? Is this called something like "first officer program" or some variant of that?

PFT is easy to spot. Anyone who is confused about what it is can feel welcome to post a situation, and many of us will help you.

 

[Flechas]

yamama,
i agree that some people pay for more than others, and when it's only for personal gain is ok(getting more ratings, etc) but when you are being trained for a position that will generate income to somebody else, and you are being trained because you were hired, thats what i don't agree with, or even worse, when you pay for flying a plane full of pax, doesn't get any lower. the only reason i disagree with the whole idea of PFT, specially F/O programs, is because if people woldn't pay for those positions, those airlines would have to hire pilots to do that job. this means more jobs and better paychecks for us.

flechas

 

[FL240]

QUOTE]PFT is easy to spot. Anyone who is confused about what it is can feel welcome to post a situation, and many of us will help you.[/QUOTE]


I think there is a distinct difference in paying to acquire ratings such as your CFI, commercial, or multiengine ratings, than paying to go work for someone. You need some/most of these ratings to enter the profession at any level. We all know that you have to build upon your experience through instructing, flying cargo, traffic watch, throwin skydivers out the back...etc ect. When you have a good measure of experience to bring to the table I don't see how anyone could ask you to pay for a type, recurrent, or any portion of that training. Moreover I can't believe that anyone actually agrees to do so! As far as SW being PFT...I think that's a stretch.