Ted gets star-ted at DEN, LAS

[T-Bags]

Come on Dizel, your boy started with the direct attacks (something about a rock...)

 

[T-Bags]

F9,
First, since the announcement of TED, FRNT has been frantically trying grab some headlines with lower and lower fare promises. It's Boyds contention that prior to TED UAL was already matching FRNT's fares. Now TED is apparently flying the same jets with 18 more seats AND a higher load factor, all the while at a CASM that is reported to be "equivilent" to FRNT's.

As to your 757 remark, let me clarify a few things. If UAL replaces a 737 (8-112) and a 757 (24-158) with two A320's (156) then ASM's go up. Additionally, ASM's aren't the important factor. If that was the case, TED would be 747-400's. CASM matters. The 320 burns about the same gase as a 737-300, and less than the 757. The 320 IS cheap to operate. Thats why you guys chose the 319 over the similarly sized 737-300 you already had and even the NG 737's. Don't quote me, but I think ASM's went UP in each TED market. More seats at a lower CASM. For example LAS-den used to run 9 737's (with a few 320's) they ranged from 104 seat jets up to 138 seat jets. Now the market has 8 TED flights, all at 156 seats. Even assuming every was a 134 seat jet, that's an increase in seats. Same for the Florida markets. Currently, DEN-MCO has 4 A320s at 12-126. Within a month it goes to 4 TED jets all at 156 seats. Same number of flights, more seats (and contrary to popular belief, the same number of F/A's). Cost doesn't go up, revenue does.... and the loads don't look like they are going down...

 

[Dizel8]

General,

"I think TED is designed to hurt the competitors---and maybe break even for UAL---I don't know if it will be a huge money maker. What were those two TED sayings again?"

Yet when we say the same about Song you get upset?

Tbagged,

He ain't my boy, but your rhetoric sometimes comes perilous close to condemming LCC pilots in general. Then again, maybe that is how you want to come across. Not flaming, just asking?

 

[T-Bags]

"but your rhetoric sometimes comes perilous close to condemming LCC pilots in general. Then again, maybe that is how you want to come across. Not flaming, just asking?"

Well....YES!!!

I'm actually a STRONG believer in the concept of more standardized wages and easier portability industry wide. We pilots are stupid and are mostly responsible for our own situation. I still need somebody to convince me how "probationary pay" is rational. Just what was it that the rEAL guys were proving when they were hired by other majors? That they could juggle credit cards enough to support a family on $20 K? But I'm about to get spun up, and off topic....

 

[Dizel8]

Just wanted to be sure, thanks for the honest answer!

So, if you are proposing portability, you would not have opposed the US DOH scenario when there were talks of merging U-UAL!

As far as probationary pay, well, I am happy to say, that jetBlue does not have that. Besides, isn't that really the senior people sacrificing their young, much like what we have just seen the U MEC do with their furloughed pilots and the E-170?

 

[jetblue320]

"It puzzles me why you even care what we do. Explain to me how it effects you directly, or indirectly for that matter?"

Thanks for answering the questions.... OF COURSE what YOU do affects the rest of us. LCC's make up over 20% of the market. you ARE bidding down wages. When the wages at the majors go down, yours will also (mark my word, Jblu will be asking you to "help them out" of financial difficulties within 5 years). In any case, if I crawled out form under a rock, you feel off my arm around two weeks after the small pox vacination...

As to TED. Load factors are being booked at better than 90%. It's been reported and I verified it by checking "sample" routes and dates. It ain't Rocket science, UAL is selling seats for the same price as before, but putting around 150 on each 320 vs 120 before. Looks like around 20% more revenue per flight....

Well, it seems I struck a nerve with you with the rock jargon. Maybe it was harsh and I should have said, "haven't seen you on this forum for a while"? Silly of me to think we could actually have an intelligent internet exchange. So you reply by calling me a scab? Man, you are pathetic. Firstly, I have been in this business for 26 years and have never done anything remotely associated with any action of any union backed airline or labor organization. Secondly, and more importantly, I am done with you and I won't spend another second of my time. You are a sub human and are not worth the effort. Good luck with your future. Rest assured mine is going to be fine, but then, what do you care.

P.S. Thanks Dizel8. Do me another favor and don't spend another second with that worm, he's not even worth a keystoke.

 

[Boeingman]

T-Bags is your typical Brain Surgeon. What more could any of you possibly expect?

 

[T-Bags]

"Firstly, I have been in this business for 26 years"

"Rest assured mine is going to be fine, but then, what do you care."

26 years and you are just getting started at Blue? Bet your career has been the picture of good decisions and successes...

You accuse me of coming out from under a rock and then get a whinny when it comes back at you? By the way, some Law text define "scab" as working for less than prevailing union wages.... Not calling you one, just pointing out the falacy of your contention that you have never done anything remotely like it.



It is funny that the "s" word comes out and Boeingboy, their number one defender shows up....

 

[Boeingman]

It is funny that the "s" word comes out and Boeingboy, their number one defender shows up....

Well Mr. Brain Surgeon, you lost me on that one. My comment was geared more towards your continued arrogant industry diatribe. But the denial runs very deep over there at UAL so it really is no surprise.

And BTW ball boy, I am the number one defender of my pilot group. Good and bad.

 

[Dizel8]

"Bet your career has been the picture of good decisions and successes..."

Ah, the typical arrogant attitude, that is so often in the "Chosen Few". Just curious, is that what they teach during indoc?

Of course, you better be careful, Skirt might come teach you a thing or two!

 

[V2+10]

T-Bags,

Man...who pi$$ed in your corn flakes?!!!

Your attitude is typical of those that are always trying to place the blame of their own woes on someone else. Maybe it's time to look under your own rock first and see whats wrong before you start throwing it at someone else.

V2

 

[T-Bags]

"Bet your career has been the picture of good decisions and successes..."

Ah, the typical arrogant attitude, that is so often in the "Chosen Few". Just curious, is that what they teach during indoc?

Of course, you better be careful, Skirt might come teach you a thing or two!

Now now Dizel, your boy was bragging about his superb financial situation. Just merely remarked that after 2o some odd years, being a new hire didn't impress me. Doesn't say much for his track record either.

As to Skirt, she won't admit it, but I'll bet she is already having second thoughts. What's her strike price? I will say this, she alluded to the fact that she wasn't being hired as just another line pilot. If she is at JB to "give away" UAL's CLR program, something developed over the years at a considerable cost, then it strikes me as somewhat sleazy...

 

[T-Bags]

Yeah yeah Boing Boy, tell us how everybody had medical bills and we just wouldn't understand....Blah blah blah....

 

[Boeingman]

Yeah yeah Boing Boy, tell us how everybody had medical bills and we just wouldn't understand....Blah blah blah....

Ball boy once again comes through with another brilliant attempt to deflect a well deserved chastizing.

I defend my pilot group for the good of us all at CAL. In fact, I'll hold all of our guys in better regard than a bunch of whining prima dona children like yourself, who for the most part were hired and jump started their careers due to their skin color or gender.One thing is for sure, your attitude personifies the UAL pilot right to the "T"

You mentioned in an earlier post the term scab can also label one who works for less than prevailing union wage rates. So are all UAL pilots now scabs after your concessions are below "prevailing ALPA wage rates"?

Like I said homo, you're the typical Brain Surgeon. Do keep posting though, you're a laugh a minute.

 

[JayDub]

T-Bags, I think where you are getting confused is you mistakenly thought our contract is one of "limited duration" like you find at a lot of foreign freight companies. Those say 'you'll work there for x amount of time then it ends, no matter what, but we may re-new... but it depends'. Ours, on the other hand, say you can only be fired for x,y,z, and it will be automatically renewed at five years, unless either party has reason not to. We are talking two completely different animals here.

Remember, we are paid time and a half for everything over 70 hours. Most of my friends make 135-145K a year. What's an Airbus Captain at United making these days? Remember, the guy in the left seat of the Bus at United has at least 15 years more with their company than I have with mine. It is easy to have the hourly rate throw you off, but compare 4 year scale with 4 year scale, and you'll find we are a lot farther from collecting public assistance than you'd have folks believe.

As I read your posts, the "baseline of compensation" thing jumps out at me. What exactly is that? I have yet to see anyone that thinks like this push any hard numbers. I truly believe this is because there is no "baseline". No matter how much you, I or anyone else makes, it will never be enough. That's cool, but at least be honest with yourself about it and move on.

To insinuate our book keeping is dishonest without any proof is disingenuous. The exact same hollow claims could be made of any other organization. Including, but not limited to, your airline, and even ALPA itself, if you choose.

20% returns are indeed unrealistic. All you have to have are returns that match the Dow from here on out to have a nice little nest egg. I believe that is what most of my peers are hoping for.

One last item; you might want to take it easy on JetBlue320. I have never, ever heard any one doubt his experience, character, skills, or patriotism that has met him. In fact, I would hold his qualifications that you seem to doubt against any one you choose.

Respectfully,

JayDub

P.S. Sorry the numbers didn’t add up. I never was any good at spelling.

 

[T-Bags]

Jdub,
WRT the "contract", I was wondering if that gave the comapny an "out" when the concept of post retirement benefits were considered. If you are a "contract" employee, it would follow that when that contract ends, their "responsibility" ends. I am honestly asking the question.

Books: I have backed up my ascertion REPEATEDLY (I know that puts me in the minority...).
MX costs: JBLU has SIGNIFICANTLY lower MX costs currently because they don't account for MX that is performed under warrantee. Sounds good, but IMHO, a more honest accounting would either use traditional A320 lifetime MX cost schedule and "debit" the books for that amount with the in warrantee "savings" being reflected in cash flow, or assign a value to that warrantee (Airbus does...) and have that value amortized for the duration of the warrantee (what I've been told is the most appropriate)
Depreciation: 25 year straightline with a 20% residual?! Come on!!! Does anybody fly 20 YO buses? I think AF has been dumping their oldies on the cheap. And when you figure in the composites, there isn't even enough aluminum to make a 12 pack!!!
Lease expenses: Hard to get a firm grasp on them. Most of the leases are are of a short term nature, with the rumors of "teaser rates". I don't know, but it is propriotary infor so it will never be released to anybody, but assuming they are at "normal" rates, the interest rate used in the lease payment equation is a variable rate. While this isn't "dishonest", it does mean significantly higher lease rates if interest rates start to climb

FWIW, I'm a purist WRT my thinking on accounting. For example, I think money saved by fuel hedging should be considered "investment income". Management is gambling on a speculative market, and they aren't even doing it with jet fuel in most cases. They buy futures on other petroleum futures and "trade" them for Jet fuel. You could hedge fuel with bananas if someone could give you an exchange rate. Operating results should report how a company is performing WRT to it's peers with speculative "investments" removed from the picture.

 

[Ty Webb]

T-Bags . . . the "dino-sore" . . . . .

Face it, Bags, the problem isn't LCC pilots. I could just as easily make the case that your dinosaur airline keeps MY wages down.

How, you ask?

Simple. If your company actually charged passengers what it cost them to operate the flights, plus a reasonable profit, then MY employer could raise our prices, make even more money, and we, the pilots, would be right there looking for our fair share of the profits.

Instead, your compnay has lost billions of dollars by dumping seats at huge losses . . . and will probably keep doing so right into Chapter 7.

Meanwhile, you, with all the friends you've made on this board, should have no problem finding yourself a job at a surviving "non-dinasaur" airline.

Good luck.

 

[T-Bags]

Jdub,
I split the subjects so one post wouldn't take two pages.

Industry "baseline" wages.
If you fly an A320 as a captain, I don't care if it's year 2 or 22, you should make at least a minimum level of compensation. Same for F/O. If a company can't survive while paying that minimum, they should liquidate. That includes UAL. We as pilots also need to become more rational with F/O rates to make it a little less "painful" if your company liquidates. Again, what is a former rEAL capt proving when he is on "probation". Why should a first year F/O make 1/3 the pay of a 3rd year guy for doing the same job. To Jblu's credit, they don't appear to play this game to the extent of the majors. If Jblu or anybody else has some magic elixer of a business plan that results in phenominal growth, fine, then the top quality guys will go there. But the growth should NEVER come as a tradeoff for pay. This starts the snowball (or more appropriately, the avalanche...) "If only you guys will take Virgin Americas pay, we can grow...." and they cycle continues.

Pay must be considered as a WHOLE package. If company X wants more w2 cash and less tax free retirement funds, fine, but the total cost per flying hour for a pilot should be above a minimum at ALL airlines.

Boeing boy,
FYI, UAL's new pilot contract used CAL's as a template. Per hour pilot costs are roughly the same now. UAL's "old" contract would have resulted in over 1000 more pilots at CAL, but your scab infested LEC's gave Gordo just what he wanted. Hope you like you contract, you'll get to keep it for at least five more years. Congrats on matching UAL's contract..... As to your professionals, I've sat back and listened to your "company men" make @sses of themselves on 123.45 taunting about the jets and routes Gordo was going to take at liquidation. I've seen professional, and it ain't at CAL...

BTW, I'm a mayonaise monkey with balls. WRT to quality individuals hired at UAL, most had better qualifications than I and a majority came from other Airlines (like CAL).

 

[Boeingman]

Boeing boy,
FYI, UAL's new pilot contract used CAL's as a template. Per hour pilot costs are roughly the same now. UAL's "old" contract would have resulted in over 1000 more pilots at CAL, but your scab infested LEC's gave Gordo just what he wanted. Hope you like you contract, you'll get to keep it for at least five more years. Congrats on matching UAL's contract..... As to your professionals, I've sat back and listened to your "company men" make @sses of themselves on 123.45 taunting about the jets and routes Gordo was going to take at liquidation. I've seen professional, and it ain't at CAL...

BTW, I'm a mayonaise monkey with balls. WRT to quality individuals hired at UAL, most had better qualifications than I and a majority came from other Airlines (like CAL).

Yawn, Whatever. So the 1,000 you dumped are just the beggining? LOL, more to follow stay tuned. And the LEC's don't give the CEO the contract. The pilots vote on it. As far as my wages, well sonny, I'm not worried financially. I only care about my fellow pilots well being. Actually, during C-97 no scabs were on the LEC's. You shouldn't keep whining about your scab mantra without true facts.

5 more years? UAL be be lucky to be even around in 5 years.

Professionals? Like what you a$$wipes did to our Frontier ALPA brothers? Talk about taunting regarding a liquidation right Brain Surgeon? How about the taunting UAL did to CAL during your "professional" TORQUE program in DEN. Remember Brain Surgeon, you and yours attacks were directed by many over there towards full term strikers like myself.

I'd be willing to bet that many of the "taunts" you (supposedly)heard were from ex FAL pilots who are just salvitating over the demise of UAL. All I ever fly is international and I have never heard peep out of any CAL pilots on freq. During the USAIR/UAL pending merger, I sure did hear a lot of Brain Surgeons brow beating the U pilots on freq. with the same type of boistrous arrogance you display here. Sounds like you got the call signs mixed up.

The real reason you run your mouth is you're just plain scared. If I saw my management hinging our survival on a joke like TED, I'd be worried as well.

Mayonaise monkey with balls? Another glimps at the UAL professonalism? LOL I'd ask how you slipped through the process, but then again with all that career jumpstarting going over there..........................

It is guys like you over at UAL with your holier than thou attitude that will continue to foster contempt amongst your peers. Personally, after reading your posts and attitudes towards others I look forward to your forthcoming unemployment.

 

[T-Bags]

Ty, Faulty logic. First, for capacity to be considered dumping, it must be done at a cost below the maginal cost of producing those flights. Bout the only example I can think of is SWA in PHL. Your companies would not add higher fares and thus be able to pay more, they would add capacity. Thats exactly what FRNT did in DEN. UAL cut back capacity while FRNT added at around 20%, then their CEO had the audacity to complain of too much capacity...

The best thing for the Airline industry employees would be for the government to quit meddling and for the industry to mature to the level of other industries.
Consider Dallas Love. I think the government should repeal the Wright admendment, but in a controlled manner like they are doing Reagan. The should start giving out "beyond perimeter" slots, but in the name of "fairness" they should essentially exclude the largest local carrier from the deal. Give all those slots to "no-incumbants". Think it would fly? Yet that type of garbage is perpetuated against the bigs. Why was U-UAL stopped? Because it would make the company too strong since it would be more convenient for the pax. Ole' Herb literally used the notion that since it would be a benefit for the pax, the little guys wouldn't be able to compete. .

Hub and spoke carriers produce more revenue. LCC's will NEVER be able to pay the same LONG TERM as the incumbants, unless they themselves BECOME NETWORK CARRIERS. Quite honestly, 3 US carriers, all with relatively equivilent wage structures (high ;o) ), would benefit employees of the industry in the long term. It would produce higher wages, more stabile work enviroments, and more pilot jobs.