Take bonus-stay in the Air Force or ??

[CCDiscoB]

I sit here and read about Stop-Loss and dudes thinking about the bonus. I think "those poor bastards, thank God I got out!"

Here is another secret for pilots thinking about the Guard. But it's a secret, so keep it quiet. Sign on as a Technician. You will earn about 2x what you earn now (don't include bonus) (Unit with alert).

You want AGR, OK, sign on as an AGR and sign the bonus. No PCS, no SWA, No field grade TDY's for 90 days, and most importantly no staff job. Oh my head!! My head spins thinking about it.

I remember being on your side of the fence. Don't be afraid to burn some bridges. I had to take a flame thrower to them. There was even a stop-loss when I got out. Do it!! I returned home, now I never miss a Little League game, I have tons of time-off and my wife says this is the best job we've ever had. I was walking back from lunch today smiling as I was thinking about the freedom I have with no commitments. Now if the airlines would start hiring again....anyway...don't lose sight of your dream job, just because of a little bump in the road.

I'm mail you some matches.

 

[llowwelll]

BeeVee,
What would be even more criminal than passing up the $25K per year bonus would be selling your soul and control of your life and destiny to the Air Force for $25K per year. By NOT taking the bonus you give yourself and your family a major bonus in terms of options and freedom.
Sure, the airlines aren't hiring so much right now, but as sure as the sun will rise, they will hire again and you'll be much better positioned to take advantage of that fact than the folks who locked themselves into the bonus in the panicked months after 9/11.
In many ways, an Air Force pilot nailed down by an ADSC or a bonus is like an indentured servant. Why would you want that yoke over your shoulders?

 

[Caveman]

While I can't disagree with the logic of the financial aspect of this discussion I find it very ironic that folks are suddenly extremly philosophical about their preference for freedom when a military commitment is what allowed them to be in this position in the first place. I guess being an indentured servant for the first 8 or so years is o.k. but anything more than that is foolish. Stay or go, either way is a valid choice but why the sudden aversion to a long term commitment based on philosophical reasons?

 

[looseca]

Wow Caveman! You is smart...

 

[skiddriver]

Not quite right on the AGR issue CCDiscoB. I just had a friend ship over from active duty USMC (Cobra guy) to AGR (A-10 guy). He finished training, got back home, and just mobilized and deployed. AGR generally means no deployments during peacetime.

Typical jarhead, he was rarin' to go. His wife was less enthused.

 

[pilot141]

Caveman,
Please don't give us the "in for 20+" speech again. At what point do we become team players? Everyone here made a decision to serve their country - and they did, and they also served out their contract with the guv'ment. They are now wrestling with the very tough decision as whether or not Uncle Sam controls the NEXT 10 years of their life as well as the LAST ten years. Do you think everyone signed the original commitments without thinking about the affects they would have on their lives? How about the majority of folks who found wives and had kids during their time in service? Are they being too "philosphical" when they want to coach their son's little league team?
Besides that, most of the people here are talking about leaving active duty and continuing to serve in the Guard or Reserve. Are they quitting the team? The people we are talking about have done and will do more for their country than 90% of the American population, yet some still question whether they are "team players" because they re-evaluate their options when able to do so. I say that they are keeping the country and the democracy alive by soliciting opinions in an open forum and then exercising their right to the pursuit of happiness.
Of course, this is just an 11-year Team Player who bailed to AA and the Reserves talking, but I probably have enough happiness now to fill up 4 ADO slots!

 

[MsFan]

A friend of mine explained it to me this way. You can get out now, get a guard/reserve job (definitely), try to land a job with FedEx, SWA, or JetBlue. Worst case is you have to live on your guard pay for a year or two until you get a job. You will get a job though, maybe sooner than you think. Meanwhile, you're making peanuts for money the first couple years while your children are young. When they're 18 and getting ready for college you are making very good money and probably have a good schedule based on your 10 years of seniority so you're able to go the the football games, daughter/father dances, etc etc.

Now say you take the 10 year bonus. Yeah, you get a sh!tload of money up front, but you're either TDY 200 some days a year or you're sitting in a cubicle not building up flying time compared to all those stop-lossed C-17 pilots someone was talking about. Not to mention you're moving every 2 years to meet the "needs of the AF." At the 20 year point you're 43 or so, kids are getting ready for college and you're looking for a job. You will get a job, but you're making peanuts for money and you're sitting reserve somewhere and aren't home much (unless you're lucky enough to live in domicile). And you've got less than 20 years to build up that airline retirement.

I've always said I'd rather sell vacuum cleaners at Sears than give the AF another 10 years to suck the life out of me. If you can get a Guard/Reserve job, do it and get the heck out. If you can score a technician job you're gonna make as much money as you're making now and you'll have a lot more control of your life. And you can still get that AF retirement, with a heck of a lot less pain. You want to be available when that major comes calling, because they will.

I have many friends who are trying to make the same decision you are. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Caveman]

Pilot141,

I wrote : "Stay or go, either way is a valid choice....."

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't comment one way or the other about being a lifer or being a 'team player' and I didn't mention anything about being "in for 20+" either. This thread started out asking about a financial decision. My experience, and I stated it, was that I found my retirement check to be very handy during a strike/furlough. Most of the other posters recommended an alternate approach that, frankly, made a lot of sense. Then the thread took a turn towards the realities of a military commitment and the loss of freedom in your life as a result. I just found it unusual that pilots that were o.k. with making an initial 10 year commitment now generally thought that the loss of freedoms was too high a price. I didn't comment on anybodies patriotism or anything like that. My question was almost rhetorical. In other words, things that make you go hmmm?

 

[CCDiscoB]

I find it interesting that Caveman writes about military issues and only has civilian time. I'm sure I missed his career in pervious posts. Caveman, are you a 20 year Marine?

Anyway, I think AF pilots look at their initial commitment in a way that is similar to how a civilian pilot looks at a training contract. It's a contract, sign here and fly some amazing machines. No one should complain after they sign the contract. What gets AF dudes upset is we are made to feel guilty after our initial contract is complete. They make us accept continued commitments because we are forced to move or regain or flying currency. I know a few pilots that have unhappily signed the bonus because they incurred a training commitment. That's where the feeling of being an indentured servant comes from.

AF pilot training used to be only 6 year commitment after pilot training. Now it's an incredible 11 years! (10 years after pilot training) This time frame takes a pilot to the point where he/she has pinned on Major and incurred a commitment for the new rank. Would I do it again? Yes. Would I start at age 30 looking at 41 when my commitment ended? No. I guess it depends on what your goals in life are.

 

[skiddriver]

Yes he's a 20+ year retired Marine, and so am I. I fully understand your issues with stop-loss as a manning tool. The Air Force has a problem with that. The most expensive service per capita with the best quality of life out of all of the services, and they can't retain their people. Makes you wonder why. The junior guys say it's because the leadership is so bad. The senior guys say that it's a lack of dedication by the junior guys. Who's right?

That said, I'm a Marine who actually believes we need a fully manned and equipped Air Force. Since your leadership can't seem to pay you all enough to stay in, and since any other cultural changes they might be able to make are going to take years to implement and have effect on target, unless we just distribute your assets lock stock and barrel to the other services, it looks like stop-loss is the only answer.

Why is it any of Caveman's and my business? Let me see...oh yeah - we're citizens in this great republic - yeah, that's it.

BTW, the Air Force pilots I know didn't look at their "initial commitment in a way that is similar to how a civilian pilot looks at a training contract." They looked at it as a chance to serve their country doing something they loved, which I'm sure is how you looked at it too. Hope you still do.

 

[llowwelll]

Caveman,
Caveman, c'mon, are you serious that it makes you go "hmm" that a pilot who made a decision EIGHT years ago that it was okay to sign a commitment to the AF may (Gasp!) not want to do so again? I don't have to tell you that many, many circumstances can change in a person's life over the course of eight years that could cause them to change their mind about a lot of things. The idea that it makes you go "hmm" makes me go "hmm".
Now that we're all going "hmm", I'm curious, what was the longest legal commitment that you signed to the USMC?

 

[looseca]

Skiddriver,

That's cool that you've done 20+ years as a Marine Aviator. My last tour in the Navy was as a VX Operational Test guy, and there were lots of great Cobra guys there, so I got to see a little of what they do first-hand (hornet v. AH-1 in BFM - very interesting!).

I think the deal with Caveman is he likes to tweek guys who are down (military guys affected by stop-loss or furloughed military dudes) by playing the "I did it the hard way as a civilian" card and the "I did it the hard way as a career non-aviator Marine" card simultaneously (brandishing the globe and anchor - "get used to it".) All the while taking tacit jabs at AF guys who don't take the bonus or who bitch about the stop-loss situation with self-absorbed and patronizing commentary about commitment and duty. Anyone who's flown for the military for 10 years had made their share a sacrifices, so of course guys are going to take the bait and react. But I guess that's what keeps the board interesting...

Obviously, there's no free-pass on the military or civilian route, and we're all citizens of the republic who want to maintain a strong defense.

Loose
(member of the "Former Fighter Jock Club" and current Soup Kitchen propriator.

 

[AlbieF15]

Loose,

That must be an "OK 3 wire" you are about to take, because you are spot on.

Albie

 

[Caveman]

I have nothing but respect for anybody that served honorably in the military regardless of how long they chose to serve. I do not have a bone to pick with Air Force aviators. I wish them every success in whatever path they choose. 100% of the former military pilots I've been privileged to fly with are excellent aviators and I've learned something from everyone of them. I am a little bit envious of folks that have had the opportunity to fly something slick like an F-18. So is almost every other non-fighter pilot I know.

I am proud of my flying career, but the reason I'm proud of it is that so far I've been successful. The path I chose to get here is largely irrelevant. If I had to do it all over again I would have done it a more traditional way, namely via the Air Force. I was young and stupid and made some dumbass decisions so I ended up here via the back door. It was not harder or easier for me to get here, just different. I don't make a big deal about it but I not going to sit in the back of the bus because of it either. I am in a slightly small fraternity though. I'm retired military and an airline pilot but I never flew in the military. I know of at least two others that fit that description. So what. Slightly unusual, but that's about it.

I am not the one that keeps making my background an issue. I only mention it whenever I'm attacked for commenting on military issues as someone that 'hasn't been there and done that'. I definitely have a limited perspective of what military flying is about, but I'm certainly entitled to comment on military life in general. Feel free to research any of my previous posts. I don't know 10 cents about flying military aircraft so I don't comment on it. I do know about deployments, stop-loss, hardship tours, family separations, crappy pay, espirit de corps, etc, etc. , but you'll not find one word about actual military flying.

Too many of us take any criticism about organizations we are affiliated with too personally, me included. My posting history on this board shows that I have been known to reply to some posts in an occasionally overaggressive manner. I am working hard to not do that because it does nothing to further the debate. What frustrates me about this particular thread is that I was honestly just asking a philosophical question about why we change our minds about some things. I never intended to question anyones patriotism, commitment, or anything else. I guess I need to work on my writing skills because apparantly my tone kept coming across as accusatory. That was never my intent.

 

[OPIE01]

What happened to answering BeeVee

First of all “It's Not About the Money."

Boy, you all have gotten way off vector. BeeVee asked for some advice and you all proved the old adage: Opinions are like A**holes, everyone has one (or is one, I can't remember).

BeeVee, I’ve been at this game for 20 years now and remember when the Bonus came out back in the late 80’s. You are not the first, nor will be the last to think about selling your Freedom for some cash.

One thing I do know is this: Of all the many guys that I know who have taken the bonus, very few got to enjoy it or save much of it. I myself got sent to Columbus AFB to teach T-37s. I was forced to live on Base and because of this the public schools my 3 sons would have had to go to were the worst I have seen in my 20 years. So guess what, like many of the other military on base, I ended up having to send my boys to a private school, $10K a year plus all the driving to and from school my wife did (no bus service). Because I was prior service and had to many years of service for the original bonus, I got only 4 years of the $22 K bonus when they changed the law. So for the $94K I signed for, here is the break down. Taxes $34K, Charity, >$10K, School $34K, Left over $16K.
Thank goodness I got to move from CBM, I saved $10K I didn’t have to pay into school. My kids education means more to me than money, but it did hurt to spend their future college fund on Kindergarten.

The sad thing is, there are hundreds of stories out there worse than mine. All intending to have a little nest egg for their family. But because of one thing or another, ie: base closer and couldn’t sell their house, they ended up not having anything to show for their big chunk of Cash.

I never expected to get the bonus, and was planning to stay to 20 years anyway (I had 16 years in at the end of my UPT commitment). I believe God blessed me with the Bonus so I could pay for my Kids elementary education.

BeeVee, you need to do what you feel is right, but I am here to tell you that $200K will not make you happy, nor will it make your bosses like you more and ease your deployment schedule. Nor will it reduce the stress your kids have in moving 3 or 4 times to different schools and new friends. Wait till your kids get to junior high/middle school. All the other kids in class will have known each other for 6-8 years, so why would they want to get to know your kids.

And your job, yea being a line dog isn’t to bad, but when you pin on Major and become ADO/Sup, do you think your life will become less stressful. I had a 5 years below the zone to O-6 tell me: “Opie, in the Air Force the only reward for a good job is MORE WORK or No Punishment.”

You are a cog in a big machine, when you are worn out, they will just replace you with a new cog, and discard you like last week's trash. We have an O-5 who turned down O-6 last month. He wants to go to the airlines and let his children stay put for a few years. Well guess what, the 4-star AETC/CC, tagged this guy for a 90 day TDY. He was called on a Friday and was told to report the following Monday for the TDY. No regard to the fact he has done everything asked of him for the past 22 years. He became a quitter and is being punished. Worse than that, this 4-star will be the one who has to OK the O-5s Stop Loss (yea you bet).

I truly hate it when people bad mouth the Air Force or Military by saying, “The Air Force screwed me.” The Air Force and Military in general are these Huge organizations that want to do what is right. But! There are thousands of jerks within that destroy other’s lives.

I thank God everyday that I have a beautiful wife, 3 great sons, and a Job with Southwest lined up. I also thank God that I have had the privilege to serve my country for 20 years. If it wouldn’t be so painful on my family I would continue to serve on active duty. But my wife and children are tired of the grind of moving and having to make new friends.

My advice to you, get out while the getting is good, get a guard job, and wait for the Major airlines to call you. From my vantage point, all the Good guys got out in the 90s because they knew they could get jobs. Most of those that stayed in were dead beats (like myself) because it was easier to do. Look around your squadron, look at the Majors and LtCols. How many of them do you think would have a chance at getting and passing an interview.

Nothing worthwhile is EASY, Nothing EASY is worthwhile. Don’t let money blind you, serving your country “Is not about THE MONEY.” We all stay for our own reasons, what ever you decide, Put your reasons on Video tape so you can look at it in 10 years and remember why you did what you did.

May God Bless you and your family, and fly safe.

 

[BRlinepilot]

Wow, good post Opie. Coming from an old man (he he!) like yourself, credibility has been established! I have to agree in saying........take your freedom, run like hell and don't look back. That's what I intend on doing once I get my chance. I've worked with some really good dudes but I can honestly say I haven't had one decent commander thus far in my flying career. All have been self-serving hypocrites who'll step all over others to get a pair of eagles. I'm sorry-I'm getting a little emotional. I'm proud to have served my country but I too don't appreciate being treated like a traitor when I showed my cards. Yeah, the grass isn't always greener on the otherside, but it can't be dead. Find a ANG/Reserve job and seek freedom!

 

[Kingwood]

Jeezzus BRlinepilot-

Does the heavy community leadership really suck that bad?? Seems I've ran into a least a few with a grip. I feel sorry for you if you haven't had it. Man it sure makes all the difference in the world when you are busting your ass for a driver you respect. F-15 community is chock full of studs...think Albie will attest to that since Tyndall has been putting out the most aweseme young drivers seen to date...gotta come from great leaders

Opie-

You've been around long enough to know better. A 4 star has plenty more to do than try to find ways to screw guys who decide to hang it up. There is plenty more to that story. We are constantly getting shacked with no-notice TDYs...there are usually specific requirements and not very many dudes who fit the bill. Is it possible this guy just happened to be the best match AND had turned down O-6?? (BTW, there is no more commitment and no need to turn it down...you can pin on one day and retire the next)

"All the good guys got out in the 90"s??? We definitely lost some great drivers but....YGBSM!!

Dudes-
Don't hang up your spurs bitter. Don't care if you've put in 8,14, or 20+. You guys rock for serving your country. There are leaders out there who recognize this and will help you any way they can with your transition. Seen it and been part of it. Don't be paranoid about stop loss and waivers...just shut up and drive and the respect you earn will surely get your bosses attention. If he doesn't...feel sorry for the poor slob and press on.

Caveman-
Gotta admit, having the mortgage guaranteed is a big plus. But by far the biggest high is continuing to drive with these young bucks. To me, that is worth much more than another year or two of seniority with an airline.

Finally, for those of you young guys wondering...you really can spend 20+ years in the AF....move 15 times...raise great kids who may not have seen you every night at supper but still think you are a great dad. Hey, if you think your leaders suck then why not hang around and try to make a difference??


Kingwood

 

[fox3]

Kingwood-- thank you!

Kingwood,
Thanks for the positive reply. I was beginning to think I was the only dude that enjoyed the 20 year career. Not all of the good guys got out -- I hung around (I know, YGBSM). There are a lot of good dudes still leading guys into combat, but i will agree that the Air Force lost a lot of great pilots in the 90s and I was sad to see them go. There are MANY guys that are getting squadrons right now that would have never been considered if it wasn't for the mass exodus in the 90s.

BeeVee, Do you enjoy getting up in the morning and going to work? If not leave -- life's too short. Getting out @ 14 years is a gut check -- 2 more assignments and you've got $2600/mo. for the rest of your life + the bonus if you manage to save it and most importantly the privilege of using the commissary for the rest of your life. I don't know about you, but $200K is nothing to scoff about. Invested wisely, it will supplement your airline and military retirement nicely. But if you hate what you're doing, then staying in isn't worth it.

Know this -- Flying for the airlines IS always about the money. You will still be gone from home a significant amount of time -- more than likely half of the year, and the flying is extremely boring. Your best days flying are behind you, especially if you get out. Being a pilot makes you part of the greatest fraternity on earth (civilian and military) and I enjoy it, but don't come to the airlines expecting Utopia.

 

[BeeVee]

Thanks for all the inputs!

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback on my original post - alot of good info. After reading all the posts, it looks like about 80% recommend getting out - 20% say take the bonus and stay in.
I am currently flying the C-21 at Keesler (C-21 schoolhouse) - so life is pretty grand right now. But this is only a short term "dream world". The problem is, I had never planned on staying in the Air Force active for 20 years; therefore, never did the "things" required to get promoted past my current rank(Major). (eg - staff job, Masters degree, etc.) If I do end up staying in, I will be a passed over dude having to go back to the C-17/C-5 community based on my C-141 background. Never been overseas - so a high probality of getting sent remote for a year around the 17-18 year point ( I would be leaving Keesler with 15 years in if I stay here for 3).
After thinking it through, ..........I plan on hanging out here at the schoolhouse - NOT taking the bonus, and wait and see what happens with the industry. As I said in a previous post - I HAD a Southwest and Northwest interview cancelled last September - so hopefully those companies will call me back next November when I will be available to get out again. If I get no calls after this assignment runs out (May of 2005) - and I decide to take another Active duty assignment- then I will take the 25k a year bonus for the last 5 years of my AF career. At least that way I will not be locked in to the Air Force until I am sure I am going to stay in until retirement and will have a bit of leverage if AFPC tries to hose me with a lousy assignment. I could always turn it down and get out all together. We'll see what happens.....
Again thank you all for the good info - I really appreciate it.

BeeVee

 

[llowwelll]

Kingwood,
Thanks for the perspective from the greener side of the fence. To answer your question: yes, the leadership in the heavy community REALLY does suck that bad. If you haven't seen the same thing over in the fighter world, then, dang, I wish I'd put in for x-flow when I had the chance. While I can’t say that I haven’t seen a single decent commander, I can say that the proportion of good to bad has been miniscule.
I agree with you that it would seem like a 4-star would have better things to do than try to find ways to screw guys who decide to hang it up. But that whole grounding-pilots-who-turned-down-the-bonus thing in the mid-90's kind of created a lot of suspicion and mistrust in the ranks. They did it then, why do you think they don’t it now? It'd be difficult to argue the position that the policy was some sort of necessary personnel tool that was not designed to punish those who were moving on.
On an idealistic level, the notion of staying in and trying to make a difference is nice. Realistically, though, to get into a position where you could make a difference requires playing THE GAME. Playing the game requires religious belief in the party line and complete devotion to the advancement of both your own career and those appointed over you. Unfortunately, doing all this without sacrificing your family, your ethics, your grip, or stomping upon those around you is a dicey proposition at best. What’s more, there’s no guarantee that after you’ve offered up so much of what’s valuable in your life to the finicky gods of the Air Force, that you’ll be placed in a position to affect some change for the better.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, Kingwood, I really do. I hope that my perspective is too cynical and that what I’ve experienced has been atypical. You sound like somebody who might be good to serve under. However, I truly believe that the Air Force, based on what I’ve seen and heard, is plagued with a systemic blight of careerist leadership. Today. we can very easily roll over nations like Afghanistan or Iraq with minimal casualties and lots of glory, but I fear what would happen tomorrow if we tangled with say…China. Sure, effective, inspirational, combat leaders would eventually rise to the top in such a situation but how long that would take and how precarious a situation our nation would be in by that time is anyone’s guess.
So, to tie this all together…the decision to stay or go. The decision, of course, is not nearly all about money. I have sadly come to realize that the Air Force is gripped by a leadership that requires its underlings to give EVERYTHING to the advancement of it’s vaunted colonels and generals. It beckons us with the lusty possibility that we might one day, if we act right and the stars align just so, be able to enter their ranks. So help you God, though, if you upset one of them. We all swore an oath to support and defend the CONSTITUTION, not to posture for the best career move or to collect glowing OPR bullets. Giving EVERYTHING might just be worth it if it were more truly about supporting and defending the Constitution and less about plotting your path to eagles or stars on your shoulders. If you want FREEDOM from the machine that threatens to consume you in the all-important push for career advancement, then get out or at least preserve your freedom to get out by not taking the bonus. You can save your everything to give to who and what you see fit: your wife, your kids, your friends, your hobbies, your LIFE. If you feel that you are truly supporting and defending the Constitution by your service in the Air Force, then stay in. That really is the only reason any of us should stay in.