TABEXPRESSF/O Appreciation day!

[JD2003]

training

some very thought provoking statements by all...thanks

i can't make this very long because i have to study for a systems exam...required to get a 100 percent to pass...

just a few further points for clarification...

i gather that all of you think im going to pay for the training at colgan or elsewhere...untrue...completely untrue...the expenditure for the program at Tab is closer to 50K for a guy coming in with my level of experience....beyond that... i will never pay any future employer any money for training as a condition of employment...this i reject

the training conducted at Tab are on non-revenue loft type routes...we carry no mail...no cattle...no people (two legged cattle)...and the company does not derive money based upon our willingness to fly asm's for no pay....strictly a training regime...half of which is done in level 6 simulators...hey...beats the frasca and the pcad.

as far as unions...well i was a member of the international association of machinists...never trusted management...never will

thanks to all for the lively debate!

gotta go study...

jd2003

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Re: training

some very thought provoking statements by all...thanks

as far as unions...well i was a member of the international association of machinists...never trusted management...never will

thanks to all for the lively debate!
jd2003

To add to the lively debate, you say you don't trust management (which I can appreciate) but you seem to be at peace shelling out $50K at TAB? Probably rushing to judgement, but TAB doesn't strike me as a school that is overly concerned for their students. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[Resume Writer]

Re: A more intelligent TAB discussion . . .

You leave TAB with five hundred. How will you build the rest (rhetorical question)? Moreover, your logbook won't lie. It'll show that your turbine was paid-for at TAB. It may not mean much to H.R.(comments, Resume Writer?), which primarily compares your quals to its requirements, but it will mean everything to the interview board composed of your pilot peers.

You hit the nail on the head Bobby - it will not mean much to the HR people who are looking at the application and seeing if you fit minimums. But it probably will mean a great deal to the interview board. It truly depends on the pilots sitting on that board.

As far as the guarantee of an interview goes - all they have to do is give you ONE interview to legally meet their obligation. I wonder if TAB foots the bill for a full time HR person at these bridge airline(s) to only conduct interviews for the purpose of fulfilling this requirement.

Let me also say that in the resume writing industry, there are people that guarantee you will get an interview with the document they write. I do not offer that guarantee. (mainly because my clients do get interviews! ) Oh, I could offer that guarantee. All I would have to do is get one of my staffing recruiter buddies to give a call to that person and interview them. Fulfills my requirement, right? But I do not participate in unethical practices.

When I talk to potential clients, I ask a LOT of questions. I will ask what they are doing now and what they want to do. I want to ascertain if they have the requirements of the position they are seeking. If not, I will refuse to do their resume and suggest other options.

I had a woman a number of years ago who called me and wanted me to write her a resume to be a graphic artist. I asked this woman if she had any training in that field, particular use of programs, any employment in that field, etc. Turns out she did not. I told her quite plainly that I could not write a resume for her for a field in which she was not qualified to work. I also warned her that she should be wary of working with a resume writer that said they could.

I then gave her advice to get an education in that field. When she replied that she did not have the money, I educated her on financial aid programs to help her get her training. I never took a dime from her.

I had another guy about three weeks ago who wanted to work "overseas." When I inquired as to what he wanted to do, he had about 100 different targets, none of which matched his previous background while going to school. I refused to do his resume until he went on to the internet (I gave him sites to look at) and choose positions he might be interested in. Then I told him to see if there was a common thread running through any of them. That way we could match his quals to the jobs if he had them.

Further, I told him that he needed to check into the requirements for working overseas. (He told me he had his passport) I told him that a passport was not enough and that some countries require you establish residency for a year before you are allowed to work there. Once again, I did not take his money and warned him against anyone who would.

The point here is ethical behavior. I question the ethics of PFT promising interviews. I think people should be wary of this. I have always told my clients to not pay for job, no matter what industry they are in. When they think about going through a recruiting agency, the first thing I tell them to ask is "Are you fee paid by the employer." If not, politely move on.

These are just my opinions.

 

[bobbysamd]

An aviation employment expert's point of view . . .

Originally posted by Resume Writer
I question the ethics of PFT promising interviews. I think people should be wary of this. I have always told my clients to not pay for job, no matter what industry they are in. When they think about going through a recruiting agency, the first thing I tell them to ask is "Are you fee paid by the employer." If not, politely move on.

(emphasis added)

Now, we have opinions from an expert.

Great overall comments, Kathy. Thank you.

 

[TonyC]

Re: the Avatar

Mommy's Little Girl

She's a sweetheart, Kathy!

 

[Resume Writer]

Re: Re: the Avatar

She's a sweetheart, Kathy!

Thanks Tony! She is the best baby and a personality that knocks everyone's socks off.

I forgot that you had not seen her picture..

Kathy

 

[NYRANGERS]

Re: Re: A more intelligent TAB discussion . . .

I had a woman a number of years ago who called me and wanted me to write her a resume to be a graphic artist. I asked this woman if she had any training in that field, particular use of programs, any employment in that field, etc. Turns out she did not. I told her quite plainly that I could not write a resume for her for a field in which she was not qualified to work. I also warned her that she should be wary of working with a resume writer that said they could.

So YOU determine whether or not YOU think your client will get hired. If you think they will, you will help them with their resume? Doesn't sound like much of a service to me.

While resume services may be the norm out side of aviation, I don't see how this is not the same thing as old Kit Darby does. I would think as pilots one would find the resources on their own to write thier unique resume.

I can appreciate your trying to make a living, but it seems like exploiting pilots durring a down cycle. I have many many friends who have been hired by majors etc, that have never used or needed to use a resume service.....as a matter of fact, I don't know any who have.

I don't mean to sound too harsh here, but I does seem to me you are using this web site to exploit some pilots. It may not be that their resume is bad........it might just be that their are ~15,000 pilots looking for a few jobs in this down cycle.

Regards,

NYR (Sorry if I missed your intent)

 

[Resume Writer]

NYR,

I think maybe you did misinterpret what I said. This woman did not have the training in the field she wanted to enter. Trust me, without any experience she would not have been hired as a graphic designer when there are people out there with portfolios, tons of work experience and educations to back them up. But I went two steps further with her and told her HOW to get the experience to give her a fair shot. This woman was calling only to inquire about getting a resume prepared - she had not paid me a dime. I gave her advice that some people would have charged her for. I would say that kind of service is rare to find....

Do I play God with people - no. I believe it is unethical to take someone's money when they do not have the necessary requirements for the job.

Now, you used the example of the airline industry and the 15,000 people trying to secure jobs. You also suggested that I am in the same league as Kit Darby. I am not in the same league as Kit Darby by any stretch of the imagination. I believe I proved that by my two examples that I stated in my previous post.

I do not exploit this website by any means. I think if you look at any of my posts on here, I have not once said that people cannot write their own resumes. In fact, the only things I have talked about are HR issues. If you search the threads, you will see comments by people that have used my service and have had success. I do more for my clients than most resume writers. I give people ideas of where to look and stay current on hiring issues and trends. A great deal of people come to me (in any industry) when they have not had success on their own. If people have success with their documents, why would they call me?

If someone's resume is fine the way it is, I tell them it is. To do otherwise would be unethical. I operate honestly - always have, always will.

It was suggested by some people on this board that I join to see if I could shed any light on hiring practices since I have a background in that arena. I am more than happy to provide any insight that I can.

 

[bobbysamd]

You did get it wrong

So YOU determine whether or not YOU think your client will get hired. If you think they will, you will help them with their resume? Doesn't sound like much of a service to me . . . . I don't mean to sound too harsh here, but I does seem to me you are using this web site to exploit some pilots . . . . NYR (Sorry if I missed your intent)

You have indeed missed her intent, sir. Kathy is using her vast experience in H.R., on the right side of the desk now, by helping pilots. Kathy helps people prepare resumes, as Kit has. Where you fail to see the difference is Kit has played the "pilot shortage" card since at least 1987 to hook people into his business, first as FAPA and later as Air, Inc., and to make false promises. Kit is the Pied Piper of the Pilot Shortage and is unethical. Kathy is a very welcome member of this community. Her sole contribution to this forum is her insight into the inner-workings of H.R. That is something we have needed since at least the 2 1/2 years that I've been here. You are clearly off the mark when you accuse Kathy of pushing her business, or "pilot shortage," or playing G-d about who is hired or who is fired, or anything else.

Several board members had recommended Kathy's resume services for some time. Finally, several begged her to register and join, according to this post:

I called my friend Kathy, the resume writer. I told her about the thread on here and wanted to find out if she had any insight. We lucked out
on the timing of this thread . . . .

I think it would be valuable if she did join, since she has a good background
in hiring . . . . .

A response:

Kathy is a wealth of information. I'd just hate to see her ripped to shreds by some of the flamers on this board, just for trying to help. She's already been wrongly accused of making up fake screennames (including mine!) in order to put her name out there.

(emphasis added)

And her initial post:

I just got around to joining the forum. I want to say thank you to those of you who felt it would be a good idea for me to join. As New2Flying said, I just would like to see what help I can provide and possibly some insight into the whole HR/Airline game. I will do my best to answer any questions that anyone on the board has; if I do not know the answer, I will try to find it for you.

Just a little about my background. I was in the airline industry for 16 years in several different positions. Some of those include recruitment, international sales and marketing, customer relations, revenue accounting, yield management and I worked all of the line positions, including the last few years as a Flight Attendant. Prior to working in the airline industry, I was a Hiring Manager for a Fortune 500 company. Since 1987, I have owned a resume writing and employment consulting business. While I specialize in the airline industry, I compose resumes for all positions; from front line workers up to CEOs.

The reason I tell you this information is NOT to advertise, but to let you know that I do have a substantial background in hiring. I really try to help my clients in all aspects of their job search. I will try to do the same for those individuals with questions on the boards.

(emphasis added)

if anything, some of our members had to twist her arm to get her to join our group. Is there any indication here that Kathy is trying to plug her business? Absolutely not.

Your statement that Kathy played G-d by not writing the artist's resume is inaccurate in every way and absolutely out of line. Did she ever state that she was hiring the person? That's not what I read. She simply opined to the person that she was unqualified to enter the field of art. For that reason, she refused to accept her case. Lawyers refuse every day to take cases they feel cannot succeed. To accept a bad case would be unethical. Just because you meet with a lawyer does not mean that he/she is obligated to take the case. Take it from someone who knows; I spend plenty of time interviewing new clients whose cases my lawyer eventually refuses - and it's not because we're too busy. Similarly, Kathy was under no obligation to take the artist's case, nor is she obligated to take any of ours. I'd bet that if I called her and told her that I wanted to go back to aviation as a regional pilot, at my age and after not having flown for more than ten years, and I wanted her to work-up my resume, she'd inquire which Kool-Aid I've been drinking. We should be glad that we have a member in our group who is ethical.

Kathy was honest with this person. More so than most aviation services vendors. When was the last time Kit Darby refused a membership order because he felt the person could not make it in aviation? Or, a P-F-T vendor refused to take a customer's $50K when it was clear that person might not survive P-F-T training or be "hired" thereafter? Or, a flight school refusing a potential student's money when it was clear that person would go nowhere after being pushed through its program?

I say again, Kathy did not join the board on her own volition; people here asked her to join.

To equate Kathy to Kit Darby is not worthy of comment, though I just have. You've got it wrong, NYRangers. She deserves an apology.

 

[USMCAirWinger]

What he said

yeah

 

[NYRANGERS]

Re: You did get it wrong

Alright,

My point is......(and I know this is the wrong thread for this). There are only a few ways to make a resume for a pilot (there is a reason for that). It is easy to do a little research and make one.

My perspective is comming from an airline pilot/line pilot. Neither of you are airline pilots. I just found the posts curious, and oddly enough, where ever resume writer posts...you post.

Some pilots may need help writing their resume...I have not meet any that need to pay someone for it. Heck you could post a generic one (resume) here and with the vast amount of experienced pilots and non-pilots........you would end up with a great resume free of charge.

My points may be missed........I think this web site is enriched by the knowledge and contribution of "resume writer". I hope she stays and contributes here, I am was just a little leary about the resume thing.

Lastly Boddysamd, your perspectives come from a management point of view. Us line pilots need to look out for each other when we can. I just thought I picked up on some connection with you and her....I may be wrong.

NYR

 

[USMCAirWinger]

What Ranger said!

 

[bobbysamd]

Management?? ME??!!??

Lastly Boddysamd, your perspectives come from a management point of view. Us line pilots need to look out for each other when we can. I just thought I picked up on some connection with you and her....I may be wrong.

That's another point you have very wrong. Go read my comments on this thread about P-F-T, which, decidedly, is a management program. Search my other comments about age discrimination, which, again, is a management policy. Finally, go search my exchanges with Publisher about unions. Just examples.

While I believe that proper, fair and just management obviates the need for unions, rest assured that I am on the side of employees.

Finally, to give you further assurance that I am on our side, I recommend this book, Every Employee's Guide to the Law by Lewin Joel III, at least once a week during discussions.

 

[Resume Writer]

Re: Re: You did get it wrong

My perspective is comming from an airline pilot/line pilot. Neither of you are airline pilots. I just found the posts curious, and oddly enough, where ever resume writer posts...you post.

I just thought I picked up on some connection with you and her....I may be wrong.

NYR

NYR,

You found me out...Bobby and I are having a sordid affair!

Bobby asked for my opinion of PFT in his post and I gave it. Simple enough.

I think this web site is enriched by the knowledge and contribution of "resume writer". I hope she stays and contributes here, I am was just a little leary about the resume thing.

I appreciate your comments about my contributions to the board. I will continue to help in any way I can. It is perfectly acceptable for you to be leary about the resume thing. If you get results doing it on your own, that is great.

By the way, there is not just one way to write a pilot resume. Every person is an individual and has a background that is unique. I do not compose resumes in some standard manner. I take about an hour with each client to find out about their background.

Just keep in mind that when you put a resume together, you have between 15-30 seconds to catch that person's attention. If they do not see what they want, it is on to the next person. I have a background in hiring, so I know what makes a difference.

Can you do it on your own? Absolutely. Pilots are not my only clients - that just happens to be my specialty (as are FA's, Customer Service Reps and MX Techs) because I was in the industry for so long. Not everyone sees the need for my service and that is cool.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Re: Re: Re: You did get it wrong

NYR,

By the way, there is not just one way to write a pilot resume. Every person is an individual and has a background that is unique. I do not compose resumes in some standard manner. I take about an hour with each client to find out about their background.

Just keep in mind that when you put a resume together, you have between 15-30 seconds to catch that person's attention. If they do not see what they want, it is on to the next person. I have a background in hiring, so I know what makes a difference.

Can you do it on your own? Absolutely. Pilots are not my only clients - that just happens to be my specialty (as are FA's, Customer Service Reps and MX Techs) because I was in the industry for so long. Not everyone sees the need for my service and that is cool.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Like I said before, your contribution to this site will no doubt help some pilots.

As for catching the persons attention, I disagree. Every interviewer looking at a resume is looking for a few different things. Total time with break down, Experience and education. There are a few other things, but that is pretty much it. No one is looking for the flashy resume or one that is very different. They want to look at the resume and easily be able to find the information I mentioned and be able to understand it. Thats it. A stand out resume is one that cannot be a representation of anything other than your times, collective experience (most only want one page) and your education.

So, I guess what I am saying is that I don't understand how you would make a pilot resume any different than anyother. What kind of suggestions would a paying pilot get from you about their resume? A pilot resume is pretty straight forward, I know you know this since it is your specialty.

Good luck with the affair


Respectfully,

NYR

Sorry about spelling and grammar, as you can tell it's not my strong point.

 

[USMCAirWinger]

Ok peeps...concentrate...don't hijack my thread...back to TABEXPRESS FO

 

[Resume Writer]

NYR,

Sometimes when people come to me they do not have everything listed that they should. I consistently find out that they have not listed their hours correctly. (it depends what they should list depending upon their level of experience) That is just one example.

My format is very easy to read and I have used it for over 18 years. Most times people do not differentiate themselves from everyone else. They do not give themselves enough credit and also do not cater their resume to the type of job they are seeking and what is important for that job. For instance, most corporate jobs want to see a great deal of customer service. It all depends on what the person is looking for...

Like I said, every person is different, so to pin down exactly what I do differently with each person is kind of hard.

Kathy

 

[TonyC]

Re: Re: You did get it wrong

My perspective is comming from an airline pilot/line pilot. Neither of you are airline pilots. I just found the posts curious, and oddly enough, where ever resume writer posts...you post.

Some pilots may need help writing their resume...I have not meet any that need to pay someone for it. Heck you could post a generic one (resume) here and with the vast amount of experienced pilots and non-pilots........you would end up with a great resume free of charge.

I'd be interested to see what kind of resume you came up with on your own, NYRANGERS.

 

[NYRANGERS]

NYR,

Sometimes when people come to me they do not have everything listed that they should. I consistently find out that they have not listed their hours correctly. (it depends what they should list depending upon their level of experience) That is just one example.

My format is very easy to read and I have used it for over 18 years. Most times people do not differentiate themselves from everyone else. They do not give themselves enough credit and also do not cater their resume to the type of job they are seeking and what is important for that job. For instance, most corporate jobs want to see a great deal of customer service. It all depends on what the person is looking for...

Like I said, every person is different, so to pin down exactly what I do differently with each person is kind of hard.

Kathy

Sounds good Kathy.

Take care and best of luck,

NYR

 

[NYRANGERS]

Re: Re: Re: You did get it wrong

I'd be interested to see what kind of resume you came up with on your own, NYRANGERS.

Nothing special, pretty generic. I had a few versions over the years and had a lot of input and help from other pilots and friends. I looked at a few and modeled mine after it. Enough to get me a few airline jobs and even one at Delta Air Lines.

Please don't miss my point. I mean no disrespect to Kathy, I just did not understand her service. I would imagine the interview assistance would be a much bigger help in our profession. But if you needed help on your resume and paid for it, it doesn;t matter. Talk to some of your friends at FedEx and ask them to see their resume's. Chances are they will have an uncanny similarity.

NYR

 

[Long Time Gone]

No thread hijacking!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, where's the TAB FO lately? Haven't seen him around.

LTG

 

[bobbysamd]

Resumes

There are only a few ways to make a resume for a pilot (there is a reason for that). It is easy to do a little research and make one.

My perspective is comming from an airline pilot/line pilot. Neither of you are airline pilots. I just found the posts curious, and oddly enough, where ever resume writer posts...you post.

Kathy joined the board only recently. I've been here for 2 1/2 years. She's joined in on issues of common interest.

Some pilots may need help writing their resume...I have not meet any that need to pay someone for it. Heck you could post a generic one (resume) here and with the vast amount of experienced pilots and non-pilots........you would end up with a great resume free of charge.

Perhaps. I resisted Kit's salesmen's efforts years ago to have FAPA work-up my resume. Instead, I cribbed off his format. I did get airline interviews off my materials, which would support your point, but very few when compared to the number of forests I felled for resume and cover letter paper. While I believe I know why I really didn't get more interviews, perhaps Kathy's help might have resulted in more interviews. Of course, hindsight is always 20/20. Just the same, we have needed H.R.'s perspective on hiring, interviewing and career-building for some time, and I'm glad that Kathy has joined our group.

 

[CFI'er]

Re: Re: Re: A more intelligent TAB discussion . . .

The number of pilots looking for a job is way out of line. I agree that a good number are furloughed, but that number should not be included in total looking for pilot positions. Lets face the facts and look at the number of regionals that are hiring each month. The myth is just that, a myth. Unless the big "Academies" are stretching the facts, they report new regional hires for former students hired on their schools website. A lot of the pilots looking for pilot positions are not qualified. To say that 15,000 pilots looking for work is just plane(sic) incorrect.

 

[TonyC]

Re: Re: Re: Re: You did get it wrong

Please don't miss my point. I mean no disrespect to Kathy, I just did not understand her service. I would imagine the interview assistance would be a much bigger help in our profession. But if you needed help on your resume and paid for it, it doesn;t matter. Talk to some of your friends at FedEx and ask them to see their resume's. Chances are they will have an uncanny similarity.

NYR

You missed my point. Based on your flippant attitude towards resumes, your assumption that they're all alike save for the name, SSAN, and number of flight hours, and your apparent lack of attention to detail in the areas of grammar, spelling, and punctuation, I was curious to see the quality of your home-grown product.

I have seen numerous resumes submitted by numerous individuals in the pursuit of numerous positions, and I have observed that there is not a single template that adequately accomadates them all. If all the employer was interested in was number of hours, we could all save ourselves the trouble and just fill out some sort of computer sheet - - darken the bubbles.

That's NOT the way it is. Cover letters and resumes have an impact that far exceeds their simple utility of conveying basic facts. And as long as human beings continue to review them, Kathy's services will be valuable. I doubt many of her clients characterize her product as "Nothing special, pretty generic."