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TABEXPRESSF/O Appreciation day!

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United P-F-T

TabExpressF/O said:
Why are you people making fun of me and my dream to get on with United some day? Like you wouldn't jump at the chance to get on with United.
I'd bet that if United started a P-F-T program that you and your fellow TAB P-F-T trolls/flamebaiters would be the first to sign up.

Come on, TabExpressF/O, come clean. You aren't really a TAB Express "F/O," you are some eleven-year-old in middle school with a vivid imagination!
 
Re: United P-F-T

bobbysamd said:
Come on, TabExpressF/O, come clean. You aren't really a TAB Express "F/O," you are some eleven-year-old in middle school with a vivid imagination!
...or a bored CRJ Captain on a layover. We've got about the same mentality.

(And no, I'm not TABExpressF/O. My alter-ego is a ChataquaF/O. :D )
 
Some of TAB's training captains are retired United DC-10 Captains.

I don't know of too many other FBO's that offer that level of experience in a training environment...sure the picture of the two guys in the king air with hats on is lame but...honestly...its a really good program...

Flame with that bait?
 
Dang! don't tell me I missed some of TAb's posts that somehow got erased...I need to set this up so that when he posts I get a text message on my cell. By the way, is this JD3000 dude TabExpressF/O's alternate screen name? :eek:
 
A more intelligent TAB discussion . . .

JD2003 said:
I don't know of too many other FBO's that offer that level of experience in a training environment...sure the picture of the two guys in the king air with hats on is lame but...honestly...its a really good program...
I thought it would be great to receive multi and LOFT-type training in King Airs; in fact, Japan Air Line students at IASCO in Napa, California receive such training. But how much value would an ordinary student really take away from such a program compared to money spent? I would submit, not that much.

What you really want from a program are marketable skills that will get you work ASAP after you graduate. I submit that you do not receive that kind of value from TAB. We ran an analysis of this issue before. For the same TAB you pay (intended) at some place like FlightSafety or even Comair, you will leave with more credentials, i.e. all ratings and all CFI ratings. Your chances of finding work at 250 hours improve if you are a flight instructor. Even if you do not want to instruct, you still should have a CFI so you can at least exhibit it to an employer. Employers like to see a CFI.

I further submit that TAB's bridge airline interview promises are hokum. How many interviews are promised? One? Or as many as necessary until a bridge airline hires you. Probably just the one only. Thus, you leave TAB with turbine time, but not enough to balance the small amount of total that you will build. You would still have to meet ordinary total mins, which, for argument's sake, are one-thousand hours. You leave TAB with five hundred. How will you build the rest (rhetorical question)? Moreover, your logbook won't lie. It'll show that your turbine was paid-for at TAB. It may not mean much to H.R.(comments, Resume Writer?), which primarily compares your quals to its requirements, but it will mean everything to the interview board composed of your pilot peers.

Look at it in terms of tangible credentials received for money expended. You'll get far more bang for the buck using a more traditional training provider. You don't necessarily need the turbine time or, please G-d, the B1900 type rating, to be hired at a regional.
 
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training

bobbysamd,

thanks for your viewpoints on the issue...you make your points very well...I have a variety of experience with differing schools and am not terribly impressed with the quality being advertised as opposed to what is actually delivered in the curriculum once you hand over the money.

I will confess to having completed my private license at Comair at CRG. What a terrible experience that was. I left with the impression that they were using the 141 syllabus to steal from me on a daily basis. I had a 300 hour instructor who spoke bad english cursing at me for nothing. about the third or fourth time he said the f word I made a 180 and politely told him i was returning to the field and that i did not wish to fly with him again.

I could not learn in this environment so I finished my private and did my instrument part 61 in a saratoga for the same price...did some actual IMC and learned more than Comair could ever teach me.

as far as logging hours and selling myself to an airline with 250 hours, i can't really say i am too worried about that...i am getting really close the the 1000 hour mark mostly because I sweated my arse off for UAL working double shifts so I could own a little 150...i could log as many hours as i liked flying cross country to places with cheap 100LL.

I also spent 100 hours flying an old apache...engines were 400 hours over TBO and we took that classic up into the soup and flew approaches on bad days!...with one radio equipped with a glideslope...my instructor was a retired TWA 747 captain...i learned from him stuff about flying that comair couldn't teach me with their green card instructors.

finished my degree at ERAU (night classes-after work) and now i am putting the icing on the cake i have worked so hard for. i am completing TAB's program and will leave there with turbine time and presumably an LOR from a retired captain who probably doesn't need the money but has decided to give something back and take an interest in the next generation of airline pilots.

my point is...we all work very hard to get to where we want to be and in our dealings with one another as professionals we owe each other the respect we have earned. frankly, some of the bickering exposed here on this forum from anti-PFT idealogues and others with nothing better to do than poke fun at their fellow pilot and fellow human being is immature. (incidentally Colgan has done away with the 18K type) i enjoy it for its comic value, from time to time, but it is in no way indicative of superiour intellect or ability. i have earned my way just as much as any cfi has...i have worked 20 hours on christmas eve lifting heavy bags so i could afford to learn how to fly airplanes. my work ethic and abilites are just as valuable to a future employer as that of those who chose a different road than i and i have the utmost respect for those who have chosen to teach others. we all pay for our time in one way or another...whether it be starving as a cfi at an FBO or lifting bags...we all burn the same jetA...fly the same ILS...and are measured by the same standards in the industry...invariably some will succeed and some will not but let us rejoice in one another's accomplishments, mentor those who want to fly, not be critical of one another, and have unity as a group of professionals.

i welcome continued dialogue on this

respectfully,

jd2003
 
P-F-T

JD2003 said:
i am completing TAB's program and will leave there with turbine time and presumably an LOR from a retired captain who probably doesn't need the money but has decided to give something back and take an interest in the next generation of airline pilots.

my point is...we all work very hard to get to where we want to be and in our dealings with one another as professionals we owe each other the respect we have earned . . . .
I appreciate learning about your background. Undoubtedly, I am one of those anti-P-F-T idealogues to whom you refer. Proud of it, too. Without wasting further bandwidth, look up some of my posts and you will understand why.

Respectfully, your demonstrated work ethic and willingness to pay-for-training are inconsistent positions. It has been demonstrated clearly that TAB, Gulfstream, etc., are aimed toward those who want to pull an end-run on the process. Never mind the supposed interview and strict qualifications for these programs (e.g., TAB, which will train from zero time). Again, let's be real. The only qualification under consideration is ability to pay. The checkbook trumps any flight time or other credentials. With that in mind, can you not understand why pilots who have committed their careers to building hours and obtaining straight-up consideration for their jobs resent those who try to pull end-runs?

Plenty of pilots have exhibited a strong work ethic to build their hours the traditional way to become qualified for their goals. P-F-T gravely insults that work ethic. No wonder, then, why they hold those who try to circumvent the process in such contempt, and deem them less than worthy of their respect, much less their fellowship - and no wonder why they caution aspirants who are considering pulling end-runs via P-F-T to consider it carefully. After all, one, as a P-F-Ter, will be working with these people.

Best of luck - but, frankly, you sound like someone who would have made it without P-F-Ting.
 
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JD2003, you are definitely not TABEXPRESSF/O. With that said I can feel your pain regarding the quality of instruction received at x flight school. The problem that I have seen with a lot of these “professional” flight schools is that they can very well take away the fun out of flying by doing the kind of things that you mentioned.

The whole issue here is not quality of instruction, but the reasoning behind having a 1000 hour pilot going out and shelling x amount of money to get time in a King Air. I’m pretty sure that you could somehow get a hold of a King Air at a 135 outfit and rent it for dual instruction. The question here is: is it the time that you are really looking for, or are you just trying to get your foot in the door at an airline? I honestly could not see myself going out and spending any more money after obtaining my basic qualifications. The next question is where does it stop? After being at Colgan or “TAB” Airlines for x amount of years what’s next, bribing HR to get a job at the next airline?

Look at it from the experience point of view. What are you really bringing to the airline and passengers: 700hrs of 150 time tooling around? This is not to say that your experience is any less than others but deep down, what have you really learned?

Personally I would not trade my time as a flight instructor because it was very humbling. It made me realize that there is so much stuff to learn and if anything it has allowed me to develop my self professionally ever since I started when I had 270 hrs. To me my next logical step is to do some kind of single pilot 135. My peers disagree with me, they want to go straight to the airlines right out of flight instruction. Personally I want to be able to provide experience rather than just a warm body to fill a seat. I want to be a valuable asset in addition to just another number.

The whole reason why things are as they are is because of supply and demand in addition to pilot’s “love” to aviation. Pilots are their worst enemies. We need to have a little more pride and self-respect with regards to the choices we make due to the effect that it has in the whole industry. I could very easily be flying a bigger airplane where I work at but I choose not to, there is no pay. The reason why there is no pay is because my peers are willing to do it for free. Their actions are in a sense taking food away from my table and invaluable experience. The question is am I making a mistake by not whoring myself? I don’t think so…I’m a stubborn and proud pilot.
 
JD2003

I take pride and consider it a complement to be an "anti-PFT idealogue".

Your post is honest and respectful. You've worked hard to get where you are. I don't doubt there are many fine, hard working, pilots that choose to PFT at TAB or Gulfstream.

It still hurts the profession......

Would you like to respond to the arguement that TAB style PFT takes what would normally be a paid flight crewmember position and turns it into a revenue source for an airline. Also, since you are pro-PFT, would you like to see PFT as an option at larger regional airlines and major airlines?

I'd also like to hear your retired airline captain buddys response to the above and what he thinks the response of his union would have been had they attempted to charge pilots for a job at his airline.

My only wish for folks that are pro-PFT is that they get to experience it over and over if it becomes the norm.
 
JD2003. I confess that I haven't read all of this string, neither have I read all of the other TAB strings, so forgive me if I don't have the exact facts about your choosen program. If I understand correctly, you will spend somewhere around $80K to log a few hours in a KingAire. What do you expect that $80K to buy for you? How long do you expect it will take for you to gain any ROI? Does the program put you in a position where you will be immediately able to acquire gainful employment in the flying field?, or will you still have to find a night freight job before you go to a place that will allow any chance of a normal airline type career progression?

Now for an editorial, it is people like the PFT'rs that make unions necessary. Most pilots are under the mistaken impression that unions are in place to hold managements toes to the fire, but they would be wrong. Unions are there to protect those who have jobs from those PFT types who are willing to screw their fellow aviators out of a job. I don't like unions, but I finally realized that my ALPA contract is the only thing between me and you PFT'rs. That contract forces the company to negotiate with me instead of up and deciding that I'm gone because they have a PFT'r standing outside of HQ with $18K in his pocket begging to take my job and to pay for it to boot.

And, a rhetorical question. Why would managment ever pay a decent wage to a pilot who has shown that he is willing to work for nothing? And another comment. You guys who pay for jobs don't seem to understand that your very PFT actions are training management to expect pilots to work for less and less. You may find that when you finally get to UAL that those 'pot of gold at rainbows end" wages that attracted you to PFT are no longer there. Heck, they ain't there now, are you really willing to pay $80k to buy a job that pays $24K a year for the foreseeable future?

Excuse me while I go beat my head against the wall, and then pray that my owners make the correct business decisions and keep us afloat. I most certainly do not want to start over again and compete with guys who have 80 large to waste.

Maybe I'll start looking into some garbage collector positions


enigma

Ditto to this from de727ups. "My only wish for folks that are pro-PFT is that they get to experience it over and over if it becomes the norm." Remember, what goes around, comes around.
 
training

some very thought provoking statements by all...thanks

i can't make this very long because i have to study for a systems exam...required to get a 100 percent to pass...

just a few further points for clarification...

i gather that all of you think im going to pay for the training at colgan or elsewhere...untrue...completely untrue...the expenditure for the program at Tab is closer to 50K for a guy coming in with my level of experience....beyond that... i will never pay any future employer any money for training as a condition of employment...this i reject

the training conducted at Tab are on non-revenue loft type routes...we carry no mail...no cattle...no people (two legged cattle)...and the company does not derive money based upon our willingness to fly asm's for no pay....strictly a training regime...half of which is done in level 6 simulators...hey...beats the frasca and the pcad.

as far as unions...well i was a member of the international association of machinists...never trusted management...never will

thanks to all for the lively debate!

gotta go study...

jd2003
 
Re: training

JD2003 said:
some very thought provoking statements by all...thanks

as far as unions...well i was a member of the international association of machinists...never trusted management...never will

thanks to all for the lively debate!
jd2003

To add to the lively debate, you say you don't trust management (which I can appreciate) but you seem to be at peace shelling out $50K at TAB? Probably rushing to judgement, but TAB doesn't strike me as a school that is overly concerned for their students. Hope I'm wrong.
 
Re: A more intelligent TAB discussion . . .

bobbysamd said:
You leave TAB with five hundred. How will you build the rest (rhetorical question)? Moreover, your logbook won't lie. It'll show that your turbine was paid-for at TAB. It may not mean much to H.R.(comments, Resume Writer?), which primarily compares your quals to its requirements, but it will mean everything to the interview board composed of your pilot peers.

You hit the nail on the head Bobby - it will not mean much to the HR people who are looking at the application and seeing if you fit minimums. But it probably will mean a great deal to the interview board. It truly depends on the pilots sitting on that board.

As far as the guarantee of an interview goes - all they have to do is give you ONE interview to legally meet their obligation. I wonder if TAB foots the bill for a full time HR person at these bridge airline(s) to only conduct interviews for the purpose of fulfilling this requirement.

Let me also say that in the resume writing industry, there are people that guarantee you will get an interview with the document they write. I do not offer that guarantee. (mainly because my clients do get interviews!:) ) Oh, I could offer that guarantee. All I would have to do is get one of my staffing recruiter buddies to give a call to that person and interview them. Fulfills my requirement, right? But I do not participate in unethical practices.

When I talk to potential clients, I ask a LOT of questions. I will ask what they are doing now and what they want to do. I want to ascertain if they have the requirements of the position they are seeking. If not, I will refuse to do their resume and suggest other options.

I had a woman a number of years ago who called me and wanted me to write her a resume to be a graphic artist. I asked this woman if she had any training in that field, particular use of programs, any employment in that field, etc. Turns out she did not. I told her quite plainly that I could not write a resume for her for a field in which she was not qualified to work. I also warned her that she should be wary of working with a resume writer that said they could.

I then gave her advice to get an education in that field. When she replied that she did not have the money, I educated her on financial aid programs to help her get her training. I never took a dime from her.

I had another guy about three weeks ago who wanted to work "overseas." When I inquired as to what he wanted to do, he had about 100 different targets, none of which matched his previous background while going to school. I refused to do his resume until he went on to the internet (I gave him sites to look at) and choose positions he might be interested in. Then I told him to see if there was a common thread running through any of them. That way we could match his quals to the jobs if he had them.

Further, I told him that he needed to check into the requirements for working overseas. (He told me he had his passport) I told him that a passport was not enough and that some countries require you establish residency for a year before you are allowed to work there. Once again, I did not take his money and warned him against anyone who would.

The point here is ethical behavior. I question the ethics of PFT promising interviews. I think people should be wary of this. I have always told my clients to not pay for job, no matter what industry they are in. When they think about going through a recruiting agency, the first thing I tell them to ask is "Are you fee paid by the employer." If not, politely move on.

These are just my opinions.
 
An aviation employment expert's point of view . . .

Originally posted by Resume Writer
I question the ethics of PFT promising interviews. I think people should be wary of this. I have always told my clients to not pay for job, no matter what industry they are in. When they think about going through a recruiting agency, the first thing I tell them to ask is "Are you fee paid by the employer." If not, politely move on.
(emphasis added)

Now, we have opinions from an expert.

Great overall comments, Kathy. Thank you.
 
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Re: Re: the Avatar

TonyC said:
She's a sweetheart, Kathy!

Thanks Tony! :) She is the best baby and a personality that knocks everyone's socks off.

I forgot that you had not seen her picture..

Kathy
 
Re: Re: A more intelligent TAB discussion . . .

Resume Writer said:

I had a woman a number of years ago who called me and wanted me to write her a resume to be a graphic artist. I asked this woman if she had any training in that field, particular use of programs, any employment in that field, etc. Turns out she did not. I told her quite plainly that I could not write a resume for her for a field in which she was not qualified to work. I also warned her that she should be wary of working with a resume writer that said they could.

So YOU determine whether or not YOU think your client will get hired. If you think they will, you will help them with their resume? Doesn't sound like much of a service to me.

While resume services may be the norm out side of aviation, I don't see how this is not the same thing as old Kit Darby does. I would think as pilots one would find the resources on their own to write thier unique resume.

I can appreciate your trying to make a living, but it seems like exploiting pilots durring a down cycle. I have many many friends who have been hired by majors etc, that have never used or needed to use a resume service.....as a matter of fact, I don't know any who have.

I don't mean to sound too harsh here, but I does seem to me you are using this web site to exploit some pilots. It may not be that their resume is bad........it might just be that their are ~15,000 pilots looking for a few jobs in this down cycle.

Regards,

NYR (Sorry if I missed your intent)
 
NYR,

I think maybe you did misinterpret what I said. This woman did not have the training in the field she wanted to enter. Trust me, without any experience she would not have been hired as a graphic designer when there are people out there with portfolios, tons of work experience and educations to back them up. But I went two steps further with her and told her HOW to get the experience to give her a fair shot. This woman was calling only to inquire about getting a resume prepared - she had not paid me a dime. I gave her advice that some people would have charged her for. I would say that kind of service is rare to find....

Do I play God with people - no. I believe it is unethical to take someone's money when they do not have the necessary requirements for the job.

Now, you used the example of the airline industry and the 15,000 people trying to secure jobs. You also suggested that I am in the same league as Kit Darby. I am not in the same league as Kit Darby by any stretch of the imagination. I believe I proved that by my two examples that I stated in my previous post.

I do not exploit this website by any means. I think if you look at any of my posts on here, I have not once said that people cannot write their own resumes. In fact, the only things I have talked about are HR issues. If you search the threads, you will see comments by people that have used my service and have had success. I do more for my clients than most resume writers. I give people ideas of where to look and stay current on hiring issues and trends. A great deal of people come to me (in any industry) when they have not had success on their own. If people have success with their documents, why would they call me?

If someone's resume is fine the way it is, I tell them it is. To do otherwise would be unethical. I operate honestly - always have, always will.

It was suggested by some people on this board that I join to see if I could shed any light on hiring practices since I have a background in that arena. I am more than happy to provide any insight that I can.
 
You did get it wrong

NYRANGERS said:
So YOU determine whether or not YOU think your client will get hired. If you think they will, you will help them with their resume? Doesn't sound like much of a service to me . . . . I don't mean to sound too harsh here, but I does seem to me you are using this web site to exploit some pilots . . . . NYR (Sorry if I missed your intent)
You have indeed missed her intent, sir. Kathy is using her vast experience in H.R., on the right side of the desk now, by helping pilots. Kathy helps people prepare resumes, as Kit has. Where you fail to see the difference is Kit has played the "pilot shortage" card since at least 1987 to hook people into his business, first as FAPA and later as Air, Inc., and to make false promises. Kit is the Pied Piper of the Pilot Shortage and is unethical. Kathy is a very welcome member of this community. Her sole contribution to this forum is her insight into the inner-workings of H.R. That is something we have needed since at least the 2 1/2 years that I've been here. You are clearly off the mark when you accuse Kathy of pushing her business, or "pilot shortage," or playing G-d about who is hired or who is fired, or anything else.

Several board members had recommended Kathy's resume services for some time. Finally, several begged her to register and join, according to this post:

I called my friend Kathy, the resume writer. I told her about the thread on here and wanted to find out if she had any insight. We lucked out
on the timing of this thread . . . .

I think it would be valuable if she did join, since she has a good background
in hiring . . . . .


A response:

Kathy is a wealth of information. I'd just hate to see her ripped to shreds by some of the flamers on this board, just for trying to help. She's already been wrongly accused of making up fake screennames (including mine!) in order to put her name out there.

(emphasis added)

And her initial post:

I just got around to joining the forum. I want to say thank you to those of you who felt it would be a good idea for me to join. As New2Flying said, I just would like to see what help I can provide and possibly some insight into the whole HR/Airline game. I will do my best to answer any questions that anyone on the board has; if I do not know the answer, I will try to find it for you.

Just a little about my background. I was in the airline industry for 16 years in several different positions. Some of those include recruitment, international sales and marketing, customer relations, revenue accounting, yield management and I worked all of the line positions, including the last few years as a Flight Attendant. Prior to working in the airline industry, I was a Hiring Manager for a Fortune 500 company. Since 1987, I have owned a resume writing and employment consulting business. While I specialize in the airline industry, I compose resumes for all positions; from front line workers up to CEOs.

The reason I tell you this information is NOT to advertise, but to let you know that I do have a substantial background in hiring. I really try to help my clients in all aspects of their job search. I will try to do the same for those individuals with questions on the boards.


(emphasis added)

if anything, some of our members had to twist her arm to get her to join our group. Is there any indication here that Kathy is trying to plug her business? Absolutely not.

Your statement that Kathy played G-d by not writing the artist's resume is inaccurate in every way and absolutely out of line. Did she ever state that she was hiring the person? That's not what I read. She simply opined to the person that she was unqualified to enter the field of art. For that reason, she refused to accept her case. Lawyers refuse every day to take cases they feel cannot succeed. To accept a bad case would be unethical. Just because you meet with a lawyer does not mean that he/she is obligated to take the case. Take it from someone who knows; I spend plenty of time interviewing new clients whose cases my lawyer eventually refuses - and it's not because we're too busy. Similarly, Kathy was under no obligation to take the artist's case, nor is she obligated to take any of ours. I'd bet that if I called her and told her that I wanted to go back to aviation as a regional pilot, at my age and after not having flown for more than ten years, and I wanted her to work-up my resume, she'd inquire which Kool-Aid I've been drinking. We should be glad that we have a member in our group who is ethical.

Kathy was honest with this person. More so than most aviation services vendors. When was the last time Kit Darby refused a membership order because he felt the person could not make it in aviation? Or, a P-F-T vendor refused to take a customer's $50K when it was clear that person might not survive P-F-T training or be "hired" thereafter? Or, a flight school refusing a potential student's money when it was clear that person would go nowhere after being pushed through its program?

I say again, Kathy did not join the board on her own volition; people here asked her to join.

To equate Kathy to Kit Darby is not worthy of comment, though I just have. You've got it wrong, NYRangers. She deserves an apology.
 
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