USMCAirWinger
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2004
- Posts
- 228
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
TABEXPRESSF/O Appreciation day!
- Thread starter USMCAirWinger
- Start date
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
USMCAirWinger
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2004
- Posts
- 228
Long Time Gone
Never Did The Atkins
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2003
- Posts
- 1,009
Gulfstream 200
Database Expert
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2002
- Posts
- 4,574
ilinipilot
Barely awake in Training
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2002
- Posts
- 367
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
TAB Express pub
While we're on the subject of TAB Express, I love how a B1900 type is sold to trainees as part of their P-F-T course. What absolutely meaningless, and expensive, window-dressing! Got yours yet, TABExpress F/O?
Even if one of these P-F-T'ers actually get a (real) job where 1900s are flown, they still will have to go through company captain upgrade training - if they ever make it that far! They sure would not if I were sitting on a hiring board.
That's very true. Dick Gregory named a book he wrote a particular way for that very reason!USMCAirWinger said:
While we're on the subject of TAB Express, I love how a B1900 type is sold to trainees as part of their P-F-T course. What absolutely meaningless, and expensive, window-dressing! Got yours yet, TABExpress F/O?
Even if one of these P-F-T'ers actually get a (real) job where 1900s are flown, they still will have to go through company captain upgrade training - if they ever make it that far! They sure would not if I were sitting on a hiring board.
JetSpeed219
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2003
- Posts
- 473
This has got to be a joke. Tab ExpressF/O guy is sitting there laughing at all of us. We think he's for real?
There's no way! he's probably some bored Captain with nothing else better to do.
If i was flying a king air I would were an airline cap also, AND take a picture of it, AND post it all over the internet AND call my self tab express fo guy AND be proud of it.
not.
I'm going now, i have to prepare for my UAL interview next week.
There's no way! he's probably some bored Captain with nothing else better to do.
If i was flying a king air I would were an airline cap also, AND take a picture of it, AND post it all over the internet AND call my self tab express fo guy AND be proud of it.
not.
I'm going now, i have to prepare for my UAL interview next week.
starvingcfi
CpApAwM
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2001
- Posts
- 662
haha. i don't think he's joking.
hey tab, good luck with ual. make sure you highlight your first 400 hrs so they know you didn't work to get where you are. better yet, have your parents staple your tab receipt (oops. THEIR tab receipt) to your resume just so there's no question of whether or not you PFT'd. pu$$y. the ual h.r. will love that. a real go-getter.
maybe your dad can cut ual a check and they'll put you in the right seat of a 75. just a thought.
hey tab, good luck with ual. make sure you highlight your first 400 hrs so they know you didn't work to get where you are. better yet, have your parents staple your tab receipt (oops. THEIR tab receipt) to your resume just so there's no question of whether or not you PFT'd. pu$$y. the ual h.r. will love that. a real go-getter.
maybe your dad can cut ual a check and they'll put you in the right seat of a 75. just a thought.
MetroSheriff
Hittin' the road...
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 854
MetroSheriff
Hittin' the road...
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 854
TabExpressF/O said:
Honestly???
It is mostly because of your stupid avatar and your pride in your "accomplishments" at TABExpress.
You are an easy and fun target. But I assume you knew that already.
Personally, I think you are just trolling with flame bait. I am just enjoying the opportunity for some humorous ballbusting.
Last edited:
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
United P-F-T
Come on, TabExpressF/O, come clean. You aren't really a TAB Express "F/O," you are some eleven-year-old in middle school with a vivid imagination!
I'd bet that if United started a P-F-T program that you and your fellow TAB P-F-T trolls/flamebaiters would be the first to sign up.TabExpressF/O said:
Come on, TabExpressF/O, come clean. You aren't really a TAB Express "F/O," you are some eleven-year-old in middle school with a vivid imagination!
Typhoon1244
Member in Good Standing
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2002
- Posts
- 3,078
Some of TAB's training captains are retired United DC-10 Captains.
I don't know of too many other FBO's that offer that level of experience in a training environment...sure the picture of the two guys in the king air with hats on is lame but...honestly...its a really good program...
Flame with that bait?
I don't know of too many other FBO's that offer that level of experience in a training environment...sure the picture of the two guys in the king air with hats on is lame but...honestly...its a really good program...
Flame with that bait?
USMCAirWinger
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2004
- Posts
- 228
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
A more intelligent TAB discussion . . .
What you really want from a program are marketable skills that will get you work ASAP after you graduate. I submit that you do not receive that kind of value from TAB. We ran an analysis of this issue before. For the same TAB you pay (intended) at some place like FlightSafety or even Comair, you will leave with more credentials, i.e. all ratings and all CFI ratings. Your chances of finding work at 250 hours improve if you are a flight instructor. Even if you do not want to instruct, you still should have a CFI so you can at least exhibit it to an employer. Employers like to see a CFI.
I further submit that TAB's bridge airline interview promises are hokum. How many interviews are promised? One? Or as many as necessary until a bridge airline hires you. Probably just the one only. Thus, you leave TAB with turbine time, but not enough to balance the small amount of total that you will build. You would still have to meet ordinary total mins, which, for argument's sake, are one-thousand hours. You leave TAB with five hundred. How will you build the rest (rhetorical question)? Moreover, your logbook won't lie. It'll show that your turbine was paid-for at TAB. It may not mean much to H.R.(comments, Resume Writer?), which primarily compares your quals to its requirements, but it will mean everything to the interview board composed of your pilot peers.
Look at it in terms of tangible credentials received for money expended. You'll get far more bang for the buck using a more traditional training provider. You don't necessarily need the turbine time or, please G-d, the B1900 type rating, to be hired at a regional.
I thought it would be great to receive multi and LOFT-type training in King Airs; in fact, Japan Air Line students at IASCO in Napa, California receive such training. But how much value would an ordinary student really take away from such a program compared to money spent? I would submit, not that much.JD2003 said:
What you really want from a program are marketable skills that will get you work ASAP after you graduate. I submit that you do not receive that kind of value from TAB. We ran an analysis of this issue before. For the same TAB you pay (intended) at some place like FlightSafety or even Comair, you will leave with more credentials, i.e. all ratings and all CFI ratings. Your chances of finding work at 250 hours improve if you are a flight instructor. Even if you do not want to instruct, you still should have a CFI so you can at least exhibit it to an employer. Employers like to see a CFI.
I further submit that TAB's bridge airline interview promises are hokum. How many interviews are promised? One? Or as many as necessary until a bridge airline hires you. Probably just the one only. Thus, you leave TAB with turbine time, but not enough to balance the small amount of total that you will build. You would still have to meet ordinary total mins, which, for argument's sake, are one-thousand hours. You leave TAB with five hundred. How will you build the rest (rhetorical question)? Moreover, your logbook won't lie. It'll show that your turbine was paid-for at TAB. It may not mean much to H.R.(comments, Resume Writer?), which primarily compares your quals to its requirements, but it will mean everything to the interview board composed of your pilot peers.
Look at it in terms of tangible credentials received for money expended. You'll get far more bang for the buck using a more traditional training provider. You don't necessarily need the turbine time or, please G-d, the B1900 type rating, to be hired at a regional.
Last edited:
training
bobbysamd,
thanks for your viewpoints on the issue...you make your points very well...I have a variety of experience with differing schools and am not terribly impressed with the quality being advertised as opposed to what is actually delivered in the curriculum once you hand over the money.
I will confess to having completed my private license at Comair at CRG. What a terrible experience that was. I left with the impression that they were using the 141 syllabus to steal from me on a daily basis. I had a 300 hour instructor who spoke bad english cursing at me for nothing. about the third or fourth time he said the f word I made a 180 and politely told him i was returning to the field and that i did not wish to fly with him again.
I could not learn in this environment so I finished my private and did my instrument part 61 in a saratoga for the same price...did some actual IMC and learned more than Comair could ever teach me.
as far as logging hours and selling myself to an airline with 250 hours, i can't really say i am too worried about that...i am getting really close the the 1000 hour mark mostly because I sweated my arse off for UAL working double shifts so I could own a little 150...i could log as many hours as i liked flying cross country to places with cheap 100LL.
I also spent 100 hours flying an old apache...engines were 400 hours over TBO and we took that classic up into the soup and flew approaches on bad days!...with one radio equipped with a glideslope...my instructor was a retired TWA 747 captain...i learned from him stuff about flying that comair couldn't teach me with their green card instructors.
finished my degree at ERAU (night classes-after work) and now i am putting the icing on the cake i have worked so hard for. i am completing TAB's program and will leave there with turbine time and presumably an LOR from a retired captain who probably doesn't need the money but has decided to give something back and take an interest in the next generation of airline pilots.
my point is...we all work very hard to get to where we want to be and in our dealings with one another as professionals we owe each other the respect we have earned. frankly, some of the bickering exposed here on this forum from anti-PFT idealogues and others with nothing better to do than poke fun at their fellow pilot and fellow human being is immature. (incidentally Colgan has done away with the 18K type) i enjoy it for its comic value, from time to time, but it is in no way indicative of superiour intellect or ability. i have earned my way just as much as any cfi has...i have worked 20 hours on christmas eve lifting heavy bags so i could afford to learn how to fly airplanes. my work ethic and abilites are just as valuable to a future employer as that of those who chose a different road than i and i have the utmost respect for those who have chosen to teach others. we all pay for our time in one way or another...whether it be starving as a cfi at an FBO or lifting bags...we all burn the same jetA...fly the same ILS...and are measured by the same standards in the industry...invariably some will succeed and some will not but let us rejoice in one another's accomplishments, mentor those who want to fly, not be critical of one another, and have unity as a group of professionals.
i welcome continued dialogue on this
respectfully,
jd2003
bobbysamd,
thanks for your viewpoints on the issue...you make your points very well...I have a variety of experience with differing schools and am not terribly impressed with the quality being advertised as opposed to what is actually delivered in the curriculum once you hand over the money.
I will confess to having completed my private license at Comair at CRG. What a terrible experience that was. I left with the impression that they were using the 141 syllabus to steal from me on a daily basis. I had a 300 hour instructor who spoke bad english cursing at me for nothing. about the third or fourth time he said the f word I made a 180 and politely told him i was returning to the field and that i did not wish to fly with him again.
I could not learn in this environment so I finished my private and did my instrument part 61 in a saratoga for the same price...did some actual IMC and learned more than Comair could ever teach me.
as far as logging hours and selling myself to an airline with 250 hours, i can't really say i am too worried about that...i am getting really close the the 1000 hour mark mostly because I sweated my arse off for UAL working double shifts so I could own a little 150...i could log as many hours as i liked flying cross country to places with cheap 100LL.
I also spent 100 hours flying an old apache...engines were 400 hours over TBO and we took that classic up into the soup and flew approaches on bad days!...with one radio equipped with a glideslope...my instructor was a retired TWA 747 captain...i learned from him stuff about flying that comair couldn't teach me with their green card instructors.
finished my degree at ERAU (night classes-after work) and now i am putting the icing on the cake i have worked so hard for. i am completing TAB's program and will leave there with turbine time and presumably an LOR from a retired captain who probably doesn't need the money but has decided to give something back and take an interest in the next generation of airline pilots.
my point is...we all work very hard to get to where we want to be and in our dealings with one another as professionals we owe each other the respect we have earned. frankly, some of the bickering exposed here on this forum from anti-PFT idealogues and others with nothing better to do than poke fun at their fellow pilot and fellow human being is immature. (incidentally Colgan has done away with the 18K type) i enjoy it for its comic value, from time to time, but it is in no way indicative of superiour intellect or ability. i have earned my way just as much as any cfi has...i have worked 20 hours on christmas eve lifting heavy bags so i could afford to learn how to fly airplanes. my work ethic and abilites are just as valuable to a future employer as that of those who chose a different road than i and i have the utmost respect for those who have chosen to teach others. we all pay for our time in one way or another...whether it be starving as a cfi at an FBO or lifting bags...we all burn the same jetA...fly the same ILS...and are measured by the same standards in the industry...invariably some will succeed and some will not but let us rejoice in one another's accomplishments, mentor those who want to fly, not be critical of one another, and have unity as a group of professionals.
i welcome continued dialogue on this
respectfully,
jd2003
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
P-F-T
Respectfully, your demonstrated work ethic and willingness to pay-for-training are inconsistent positions. It has been demonstrated clearly that TAB, Gulfstream, etc., are aimed toward those who want to pull an end-run on the process. Never mind the supposed interview and strict qualifications for these programs (e.g., TAB, which will train from zero time). Again, let's be real. The only qualification under consideration is ability to pay. The checkbook trumps any flight time or other credentials. With that in mind, can you not understand why pilots who have committed their careers to building hours and obtaining straight-up consideration for their jobs resent those who try to pull end-runs?
Plenty of pilots have exhibited a strong work ethic to build their hours the traditional way to become qualified for their goals. P-F-T gravely insults that work ethic. No wonder, then, why they hold those who try to circumvent the process in such contempt, and deem them less than worthy of their respect, much less their fellowship - and no wonder why they caution aspirants who are considering pulling end-runs via P-F-T to consider it carefully. After all, one, as a P-F-Ter, will be working with these people.
Best of luck - but, frankly, you sound like someone who would have made it without P-F-Ting.
I appreciate learning about your background. Undoubtedly, I am one of those anti-P-F-T idealogues to whom you refer. Proud of it, too. Without wasting further bandwidth, look up some of my posts and you will understand why.JD2003 said:
Respectfully, your demonstrated work ethic and willingness to pay-for-training are inconsistent positions. It has been demonstrated clearly that TAB, Gulfstream, etc., are aimed toward those who want to pull an end-run on the process. Never mind the supposed interview and strict qualifications for these programs (e.g., TAB, which will train from zero time). Again, let's be real. The only qualification under consideration is ability to pay. The checkbook trumps any flight time or other credentials. With that in mind, can you not understand why pilots who have committed their careers to building hours and obtaining straight-up consideration for their jobs resent those who try to pull end-runs?
Plenty of pilots have exhibited a strong work ethic to build their hours the traditional way to become qualified for their goals. P-F-T gravely insults that work ethic. No wonder, then, why they hold those who try to circumvent the process in such contempt, and deem them less than worthy of their respect, much less their fellowship - and no wonder why they caution aspirants who are considering pulling end-runs via P-F-T to consider it carefully. After all, one, as a P-F-Ter, will be working with these people.
Best of luck - but, frankly, you sound like someone who would have made it without P-F-Ting.
Last edited:
USMCAirWinger
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2004
- Posts
- 228
JD2003, you are definitely not TABEXPRESSF/O. With that said I can feel your pain regarding the quality of instruction received at x flight school. The problem that I have seen with a lot of these “professional” flight schools is that they can very well take away the fun out of flying by doing the kind of things that you mentioned.
The whole issue here is not quality of instruction, but the reasoning behind having a 1000 hour pilot going out and shelling x amount of money to get time in a King Air. I’m pretty sure that you could somehow get a hold of a King Air at a 135 outfit and rent it for dual instruction. The question here is: is it the time that you are really looking for, or are you just trying to get your foot in the door at an airline? I honestly could not see myself going out and spending any more money after obtaining my basic qualifications. The next question is where does it stop? After being at Colgan or “TAB” Airlines for x amount of years what’s next, bribing HR to get a job at the next airline?
Look at it from the experience point of view. What are you really bringing to the airline and passengers: 700hrs of 150 time tooling around? This is not to say that your experience is any less than others but deep down, what have you really learned?
Personally I would not trade my time as a flight instructor because it was very humbling. It made me realize that there is so much stuff to learn and if anything it has allowed me to develop my self professionally ever since I started when I had 270 hrs. To me my next logical step is to do some kind of single pilot 135. My peers disagree with me, they want to go straight to the airlines right out of flight instruction. Personally I want to be able to provide experience rather than just a warm body to fill a seat. I want to be a valuable asset in addition to just another number.
The whole reason why things are as they are is because of supply and demand in addition to pilot’s “love” to aviation. Pilots are their worst enemies. We need to have a little more pride and self-respect with regards to the choices we make due to the effect that it has in the whole industry. I could very easily be flying a bigger airplane where I work at but I choose not to, there is no pay. The reason why there is no pay is because my peers are willing to do it for free. Their actions are in a sense taking food away from my table and invaluable experience. The question is am I making a mistake by not whoring myself? I don’t think so…I’m a stubborn and proud pilot.
The whole issue here is not quality of instruction, but the reasoning behind having a 1000 hour pilot going out and shelling x amount of money to get time in a King Air. I’m pretty sure that you could somehow get a hold of a King Air at a 135 outfit and rent it for dual instruction. The question here is: is it the time that you are really looking for, or are you just trying to get your foot in the door at an airline? I honestly could not see myself going out and spending any more money after obtaining my basic qualifications. The next question is where does it stop? After being at Colgan or “TAB” Airlines for x amount of years what’s next, bribing HR to get a job at the next airline?
Look at it from the experience point of view. What are you really bringing to the airline and passengers: 700hrs of 150 time tooling around? This is not to say that your experience is any less than others but deep down, what have you really learned?
Personally I would not trade my time as a flight instructor because it was very humbling. It made me realize that there is so much stuff to learn and if anything it has allowed me to develop my self professionally ever since I started when I had 270 hrs. To me my next logical step is to do some kind of single pilot 135. My peers disagree with me, they want to go straight to the airlines right out of flight instruction. Personally I want to be able to provide experience rather than just a warm body to fill a seat. I want to be a valuable asset in addition to just another number.
The whole reason why things are as they are is because of supply and demand in addition to pilot’s “love” to aviation. Pilots are their worst enemies. We need to have a little more pride and self-respect with regards to the choices we make due to the effect that it has in the whole industry. I could very easily be flying a bigger airplane where I work at but I choose not to, there is no pay. The reason why there is no pay is because my peers are willing to do it for free. Their actions are in a sense taking food away from my table and invaluable experience. The question is am I making a mistake by not whoring myself? I don’t think so…I’m a stubborn and proud pilot.
JD2003
I take pride and consider it a complement to be an "anti-PFT idealogue".
Your post is honest and respectful. You've worked hard to get where you are. I don't doubt there are many fine, hard working, pilots that choose to PFT at TAB or Gulfstream.
It still hurts the profession......
Would you like to respond to the arguement that TAB style PFT takes what would normally be a paid flight crewmember position and turns it into a revenue source for an airline. Also, since you are pro-PFT, would you like to see PFT as an option at larger regional airlines and major airlines?
I'd also like to hear your retired airline captain buddys response to the above and what he thinks the response of his union would have been had they attempted to charge pilots for a job at his airline.
My only wish for folks that are pro-PFT is that they get to experience it over and over if it becomes the norm.
I take pride and consider it a complement to be an "anti-PFT idealogue".
Your post is honest and respectful. You've worked hard to get where you are. I don't doubt there are many fine, hard working, pilots that choose to PFT at TAB or Gulfstream.
It still hurts the profession......
Would you like to respond to the arguement that TAB style PFT takes what would normally be a paid flight crewmember position and turns it into a revenue source for an airline. Also, since you are pro-PFT, would you like to see PFT as an option at larger regional airlines and major airlines?
I'd also like to hear your retired airline captain buddys response to the above and what he thinks the response of his union would have been had they attempted to charge pilots for a job at his airline.
My only wish for folks that are pro-PFT is that they get to experience it over and over if it becomes the norm.
enigma
good ol boy
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,279
JD2003. I confess that I haven't read all of this string, neither have I read all of the other TAB strings, so forgive me if I don't have the exact facts about your choosen program. If I understand correctly, you will spend somewhere around $80K to log a few hours in a KingAire. What do you expect that $80K to buy for you? How long do you expect it will take for you to gain any ROI? Does the program put you in a position where you will be immediately able to acquire gainful employment in the flying field?, or will you still have to find a night freight job before you go to a place that will allow any chance of a normal airline type career progression?
Now for an editorial, it is people like the PFT'rs that make unions necessary. Most pilots are under the mistaken impression that unions are in place to hold managements toes to the fire, but they would be wrong. Unions are there to protect those who have jobs from those PFT types who are willing to screw their fellow aviators out of a job. I don't like unions, but I finally realized that my ALPA contract is the only thing between me and you PFT'rs. That contract forces the company to negotiate with me instead of up and deciding that I'm gone because they have a PFT'r standing outside of HQ with $18K in his pocket begging to take my job and to pay for it to boot.
And, a rhetorical question. Why would managment ever pay a decent wage to a pilot who has shown that he is willing to work for nothing? And another comment. You guys who pay for jobs don't seem to understand that your very PFT actions are training management to expect pilots to work for less and less. You may find that when you finally get to UAL that those 'pot of gold at rainbows end" wages that attracted you to PFT are no longer there. Heck, they ain't there now, are you really willing to pay $80k to buy a job that pays $24K a year for the foreseeable future?
Excuse me while I go beat my head against the wall, and then pray that my owners make the correct business decisions and keep us afloat. I most certainly do not want to start over again and compete with guys who have 80 large to waste.
Maybe I'll start looking into some garbage collector positions
enigma
Ditto to this from de727ups. "My only wish for folks that are pro-PFT is that they get to experience it over and over if it becomes the norm." Remember, what goes around, comes around.
Now for an editorial, it is people like the PFT'rs that make unions necessary. Most pilots are under the mistaken impression that unions are in place to hold managements toes to the fire, but they would be wrong. Unions are there to protect those who have jobs from those PFT types who are willing to screw their fellow aviators out of a job. I don't like unions, but I finally realized that my ALPA contract is the only thing between me and you PFT'rs. That contract forces the company to negotiate with me instead of up and deciding that I'm gone because they have a PFT'r standing outside of HQ with $18K in his pocket begging to take my job and to pay for it to boot.
And, a rhetorical question. Why would managment ever pay a decent wage to a pilot who has shown that he is willing to work for nothing? And another comment. You guys who pay for jobs don't seem to understand that your very PFT actions are training management to expect pilots to work for less and less. You may find that when you finally get to UAL that those 'pot of gold at rainbows end" wages that attracted you to PFT are no longer there. Heck, they ain't there now, are you really willing to pay $80k to buy a job that pays $24K a year for the foreseeable future?
Excuse me while I go beat my head against the wall, and then pray that my owners make the correct business decisions and keep us afloat. I most certainly do not want to start over again and compete with guys who have 80 large to waste.
Maybe I'll start looking into some garbage collector positions
enigma
Ditto to this from de727ups. "My only wish for folks that are pro-PFT is that they get to experience it over and over if it becomes the norm." Remember, what goes around, comes around.
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
