TA details

[twott driver]

So, if we vote no, we will have the judge impose something similar without the sweeteners. If we vote yes, we will at least get some cash.

Check mate al a Delta Airlines.

Yes, but the minute the company exits bankruptcy, you start negotiating a new contract that reflects your worth as a pilot, as opposed to being stuck with a turd sandwich for 7 years before you can even start to re-negotiate.

I don't have a dog in this fight other than the fact that my pay and quality of life will now be under immense pressure.

The sooner people realize that we are pawns and minions of the management elite, and that management compensation and company profits have been at the expense of workers' steadily decreasing compensation and quality of life for the last 30 years, the better. Until then, and when we all finally say enough, expect it to keep getting worse.

Good luck to you guys. I wouldn't wish to be in your position, but fully expect to be in the very near future. I will not do this job for any less than I currently make. That is MY bottom line. I will make my choices when the time arrives.

 

[gojo]

So, if we vote no, we will have the judge impose something similar without the sweeteners. If we vote yes, we will at least get some cash.

Check mate al a Delta Airlines.

If it's voted down, it's lights out for Pinnacle. The judge will not impose. Delta does not the uncertainty of what the next contract would bring once Pinnacle exits bankruptcy.

 

[Flyer1015]

Flyer, its easy to stand and criticize but what do you offer as a viable solution? None of the US pilots like it the way it is but its the best we got. The only way to make it better is to have the gold, then we can make the rules. The hard part is that we provide a service to our owners, we are not the owners and at best we negotiate.

Exactly. There's no gold just like you said. Without it, we have next to no leverage. You fight and negotiate with leverage, and there just isn't any today. And, as you already stated, we are not owners, we just provide services to the owners. My viable solution is one that everyone agrees is impossible. EVER professional airline pilot be on one list, a national ALPA seniority list, that airlines contract from to work at their airline. Like management, when one 20 yr old company expires, you go to the next company with your experience and start at an equal or higher salary. Not start over in a RJ at 20/hr all over again. My solution is one national seniority list. The pilots at failing airlines would love that, but pilots at healthy airline huff and puff against the idea. The logistics are impossible. "it's a pipe dream, not happening." That is my ONLY solution. The ONLY leverage. Other than that, ALPA will continue to be a waste of time, and sell one group out in front of another, and the cycle repeats.

BTW ALPA is not perfect and has its flaws but can you tell me any one group that has done more good for this industry? Safety, hour limitations, rest limitations so we don't fly till we drop.....

Yes I'll agree, but as with most things in aviation, true changes come from blood. There has to be a crash first before changes are implemented. We've pushed for rest/duty regulations for quite some time but it took a Colgan Q crashing in a BUF neighborhood before new rest/duty rules were finally pushed through. Colgan for the longest time was non-ALPA, but that didn't stop the government from reacting to a blood accident.

Your airlines group of pilots has done nothing for this industry except gain from the standards largely achieved from the group effort of ALPA. Be humble of your criticism when you have brought nothing to the table other than complaints of others work.

Excuse you, VX is FULL of pilots who have come from failed ALPA carriers! 20 yr Aloha guys, who watched their ALPA airline get undercut by a greedy CEO of another ALPA regional airline (quite illegally, I might add, considering he first played as a potential buyer of Aloha and then operated 5 RJs below Aloha's operating costs). Or the tons of ALPA Midwest Express pilots we have, and I don't need to re-hash their story here, that's been told true over time and ALPA stood by and completely washed away their careers. Oh that's right, I see Midwest Express E170s now by Republic Corporation. Or Champion. Or ATA. Just who do you think works at VX? RJ pilots? Only recently did VX really start taking RJ people in bulk quantities. For the majority of its operation, VX has hired tons of pilots from failed ALPA carriers as already mentioned. We have guys who spend decades doing volunteer work at their previous failed carrier before coming to VX because their ALPA carrier folded. VX pilots are majority all ex-ALPA, many with volunteer work.

 

[Monster Buck]

Exactly. There's no gold just like you said. Without it, we have next to no leverage. You fight and negotiate with leverage, and there just isn't any today. And, as you already stated, we are not owners, we just provide services to the owners. My viable solution is one that everyone agrees is impossible. EVER professional airline pilot be on one list, a national ALPA seniority list, that airlines contract from to work at their airline. Like management, when one 20 yr old company expires, you go to the next company with your experience and start at an equal or higher salary. Not start over in a RJ at 20/hr all over again. My solution is one national seniority list.

There are too many things wrong with this to list. I'll make it short. The primarary failure of one list equates the skills and years of effort to get on the list. This is endured at a single carrier to some degree but a whole country? To equate a highly trained military pilot with a degree or civilian with a laundry list of ac achievements, clean background and a degree with someone, like in your example of Buffalo(a garbage truck driver from gulfstream with numerous failures), if naive at best.

The pilots at failing airlines would love that, but pilots at healthy airline huff and puff against the idea. The logistics are impossible. "it's a pipe dream, not happening." That is my ONLY solution. The ONLY leverage. Other than that, ALPA will continue to be a waste of time, and sell one group out in front of another, and the cycle repeats.


Yes I'll agree, but as with most things in aviation, true changes come from blood. There has to be a crash first before changes are implemented. We've pushed for rest/duty regulations for quite some time but it took a Colgan Q crashing in a BUF neighborhood before new rest/duty rules were finally pushed through. Colgan for the longest time was non-ALPA, but that didn't stop the government from reacting to a blood accident.

So...what does this have to do with anything?...and who is WE? If not ALPA volunteers who?....VA pilots currently doing work? No its current legacy and regional ALPA pilots on numerous committees.


Excuse you, VX is FULL of pilots who have come from failed ALPA carriers! 20 yr Aloha guys, who watched their ALPA airline get undercut by a greedy CEO of another ALPA regional airline (quite illegally, I might add, considering he first played as a potential buyer of Aloha and then operated 5 RJs below Aloha's operating costs). Or the tons of ALPA Midwest Express pilots we have, and I don't need to re-hash their story here, that's been told true over time and ALPA stood by and completely washed away their careers. Oh that's right, I see Midwest Express E170s now by Republic Corporation. Or Champion. Or ATA. Just who do you think works at VX? RJ pilots? Only recently did VX really start taking RJ people in bulk quantities. For the majority of its operation, VX has hired tons of pilots from failed ALPA carriers as already mentioned. We have guys who spend decades doing volunteer work at their previous failed carrier before coming to VX because their ALPA carrier folded. VX pilots are majority all ex-ALPA, many with volunteer work.

Here again since you quoted my paragraph I assume this is suppose to be an explanation. This is nothing but a list of some pilots hardships, it has nothing to do with my point. How to you come up with this diatribe of nonsense. Yes former ALPA, where they may have done something. Again....name one grass root effort or committee that VA is on(like the thousands of ALPA pilots) to enhance our interest in the areas I mentioned above?

Nothing to do with what I brought up.

 

[Flyer1015]

There are too many things wrong with this to list. I'll make it short. The primarary failure of one list equates the skills and years of effort to get on the list. This is endured at a single carrier to some degree but a whole country? To equate a highly trained military pilot with a degree or civilian with a laundry list of ac achievements, clean background and a degree with someone, like in your example of Buffalo(a garbage truck driver from gulfstream with numerous failures), if naive at best.

That's how the industry works. If today a F16 driver with 2 purple hearts gets hired at Delta at the same time a Mesa RJ pilot gets hired, they are both equals at Delta as far as everything is concerned: seniority, schedules, vacation, pay, etc.

It doesn't really matter where people come from, once you are on the list you are like everyone else. The question is what's the starting point to ensure at least some equality. That's open for discussion. But you asked me and I gave you my opinion. There is no leverage in todays environment for airline pilots. One list would be the only long term leverage.

This is nothing but a list of some pilots hardships, it has nothing to do with my point. How to you come up with this diatribe of nonsense. Yes former ALPA, where they may have done something. Again....name one grass root effort or committee that VA is on(like the thousands of ALPA pilots) to enhance our interest in the areas I mentioned above?

I pointed out to the tons of pilots at VX (not VA) who have spent a large part of their careers as ALPA volunteers for the greater good. The fruits of their labor you and I enjoy today. Same thing with US Airways. When East pulled out of ALPA, ALPA lost a significant portion of their volunteer members on national committees. They left and became USAPA. It was ALPA's loss to lose those experienced volunteers. Whatever their reasons, ALPA no longer served their best interests with that binding arbitration award, and they left. Can you say that US Air pilots are the same as VX? Not contribuiting anything, when in fact, they were actually a backbone for ALPA at one point? As for VX, given the fact that ALPA was enemy #1 to try and stop VX from launching, I don't think ALPA will be coming on property any time soon.

 

[BrickTop]

I cant believe they accepted this piece of sh!t. If you think this trend wont stop think again. Mainline carriers are NOT taking flying back and regional pay WILL continue to go DOWN. Someday you jack apples have to accept this industry is in an unstoppable decline.

 

[General Lee]

I cant believe they accepted this piece of sh!t. If you think this trend wont stop think again. Mainline carriers are NOT taking flying back and regional pay WILL continue to go DOWN. Someday you jack apples have to accept this industry is in an unstoppable decline.

Wait, mainline pilots are taking the flying back. The 88 717s will fill in for the 76 and 70 seaters that will now have to cover the routes left by exiting 50 seaters. That is how you get more revenue during high oil, more seats on the routes. If a 50 seater can't make enough to cover the gas bill, maybe a 70 seater can, and so on. The 88 717s will cover a lot of the current 76 seat routes, like DTW to IAH for example. That shouldn't be flown by an RJ, those cities are huge. A 717 should be on that, and it looks like management might agree. 88 717s will require abour 1000 new hires too, btw.... (including 14 new MD90s coming in 2013---for possible hiring in early 2014 and beyond supposedly)


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Freebrd]

blah blah blah! Find a new tune willya Jenny!

 

[79%N1]

Hey! Did y'all hear about the 88 717's and fewer gas guzzling 50 seaters????

Just wondering.....

 

[No Delay]

BTW ALPA is not perfect and has its flaws but can you tell me any one group that has done more good for this industry? Safety, hour limitations, rest limitations so we don't fly till we drop..... Your airlines group of pilots has done nothing for this industry except gain from the standards largely achieved from the group effort of ALPA. Be humble of your criticism when you have brought nothing to the table other than complaints of others work.

I think ALPA needs to decide what roll they want to play. They cannot be all things to all pilots. Which is what they try to do for the purpose of collecting dues. the original intent of ALPA may have been for the safety and betterment of the profession. Make no mistake...today, ALPA is a business! Out to make money. Recent example...ALPA's decision to go after 401k. It was a search for more money. Which is fine. I have no problem with them being a business. But pilots need to treat them as such.

If ALPA represents all pilots, how did this TA help pinnacle? Did it benefit delta more? What about how this will affect XJT in the future? And all the other regionals? They have spearheaded a fight that will continue for years to come. How was this representing ALL pilots? How did this improve the profession for all pilots? Not just delta? How did this improve safety?

ALPA wants to be a democracy as some have stated but they function as a business. They walk a line to be involved with as many pilot groups as they can for the purpose of dues. They are a business and should have to compete in a free market like every other business. Democracies take years and are almost impossible to change....take a look at our government. Allow pilots to vote with their dues. Force ALPA to earn your dues. Remove the closed shop and see what happens. In a free market, a business either performs or dies.

We need an organization like ALPA (like the original intent) to focus on safety and the betterment of all airline pilots. We need them to lobby the FAA and congress on our behalf. But they have put their hands in too many pots to where they have become ineffective at anything. One organization cannot effectively represent all pilot groups on a detailed personal level...which is what we are paying dues for.