Sympathy for the recently furloughed

[AlbieF15]

SR,

I'll drop the fighter bravado now that you acknowledge a few good bros still serve...'nuf said.

141 warhorse was a neat bird, too--especially if it took you for 3-5 years to Charleston...not a bad life.

OV-10 was fun, but after assignment night when you get your RIPs and see "AGOS" you go "WTFO?" You learn about 50% of your job is on the ground with the Army as a ground FAC. You know your aren't in Kansas anymore when part of your job description is keeping qualified in the M-16 (and I'm NOT kidding). Let me tell you...the Army REALLY listens to an AF 2Lt when he makes suggestions on using Air Power during an exercise...(NOT!)

My OV-10 bought me several ground TDYs, including REFORGER and Hoenfels Training Excercise TDYs to Europe. You haven't been cold until you've been a wet, sleeping on the ground, Germany in the winter cold. I never appreciated the WWII footage of the battle of the bulge until I did that REFORGER one January.

The airplane was a hoot to fly....sort of a cross between a King Air and a citabria, if that makes any sense at all. Big and turbine like a King Air, slow and acro like a a citabria. You could stop the plane in 600 feet with reverse thrust. Single engine was its only threat...like many light twins it would roll and its back and kill you if you got below Vmc and ignored your feet. Otherwise...it was a slow, forgiving, fun little plane. (Eagle guys turn your heads away and don't read this...) and dropping bombs and shooting rockets on the range was a blast.

Now...the other thing the assignment got me was a front row seat with the Army during the Gulf War. Let me emphatically state I DID NOT FEEL LUCKY AT ALL about that at the time. Everyone I knew was flying, and I was in a war on the ground, for heaven's sake! I later learned the Marines lost one of their OV-10Ds (and maybe two...any Semper Fi types know?) early in the campaign. The airplane was simply not equipeed to deal with the the SA-7/14/16 type threats, and was slow enough to get DRILLED by triple A if you got too low. So...maybe I was in a better place on the ground... Anyway...like most USAF OV-10 guys, the good news was your ALFA tour was done, you learned a bit about yourself and your sister services, and you typically moved on to a pretty good fighter job afterwards. After the war, we flew about another 10 months, then parceled off our planes to the boneyard, the Phillipines, Columbia, Venuzula, and the BLM.

As for the 141...I guess we answered the question "what's the worst that can happen if we keep flying them another 5 years?" Glad nobody got hurt...

Fly safe....

 

[DaveGriffin]

OV-10

AlbieF15;
The OV-10 was the only aircraft we jumped where the pilots had ejection seats (although the USMC drivers said the ejection system consisted simply of a 1/2 lbs block of TNT under the seat pan).
A high speed, low level run, followed by an abrupt vertical climb where we would exit the open back end at about 3,000 feet, made for some fun jumping.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Do I exude heterosexuality...maybe...or perhaps I'm just ugly.

I think its the latter. I can speak with confidence since I've met him in person! Only kidding.......he's a handsome men.

Honestly guys, I think that Albie just needs to stay away from the computer after he loses video games against his kids.

Actually, Albie is one of the most stand up guys I have ever met in this profession. I look forward to maybe flying with him one day. He can teach me about "the merge" and "green bags, crud, and ray bans" and I can teach him about FA's.....oops, I mean the FMS and Autopilot.

-Neal

 

[DaveGriffin]

Otherwise...(the OV-10) was a slow, forgiving, fun little plane. (Eagle guys turn your heads away and don't read this...) and dropping bombs and shooting rockets on the range was a blast.

Fly safe....

AlbieF15

If the Eagle was capable of handling some ordinance (especially the new guided stuff) you F-15 guys might be getting a little time as the F-18's have been. After all the hours the USN pilots are putting on those Hornets they will have to get new airplanes.

Fly Navy.

 

[Mud Eagle]

If the Eagle was capable of handling some ordinance (especially the new guided stuff) you F-15 guys might be getting a little time as the F-18's have been.

The F-15E can actually carry *more* munitions and a *wider variety* of munitions than the Bug. The reason the Bug has been getting so much action instead of the Eagle is that the Hornet can be based from a boat.

 

[DaveGriffin]

F-15E

The F-15E can actually carry *more* munitions and a *wider variety* of munitions than the Bug. The reason the Bug has been getting so much action instead of the Eagle is that the Hornet can be based from a boat.

Mud Eagle;
Your absolutely right about the F-15E. I was referring to AlbieF15's air superiority Eagle.
However, in the time you guys can fly one F-15E in from PSAB, the F/A-18 Hornet can conduct 3 or more sorties from the boat.

Fly Navy

 

[ExAF]

Re: F-15E

Mud Eagle;
Your absolutely right about the F-15E. I was referring to AlbieF15's air superiority Eagle.
However, in the time you guys can fly one F-15E in from PSAB, the F/A-18 Hornet can conduct 3 or more sorties from the boat.

Fly Navy

That may be true, but I'll bet the one F-15E can get more ordnance on target in the one trip than the bug can in the 3 trips to the boat and back.
FLY, FIGHT & WIN...GO AF!

 

[RueterF16]

The Bug

Not to mention that the "Bug" needs to be replaced anyway, regardless of the hours they're getting right now. Small, short legs.. may fly a lot right now but..... Could be the reason it was first runner up to the Viper during the late Seventies push for the lightweight multi-role fighter program.....

Great nose position authority though.......

 

[DaveGriffin]

Re: Re: F-15E

That may be true, but I'll bet the one F-15E can get more ordnance on target in the one trip than the bug can in the 3 trips to the boat and back.
FLY, FIGHT & WIN...GO AF!

If that's the case then why are the Navy pilots getting all the time over target and wearing out their airplanes?



Don't get me wrong, the F-15 and the USAF are great. Without them there would be a lot of fighter jocks who require long, stable runways and prefer short deployments that wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to seek and destroy the enemies of freedom.

Fly Navy

 

[PHX767]

Ah, you can feel the love in this thread.

For the flamer: Let's give him a HIM! I know you military guys know this one - "HIM! HIM! (blank) HIM!"

 

[ExAF]

Re: Re: Re: F-15E

If that's the case then why are the Navy pilots getting all the time over target and wearing out their airplanes?

Fly Navy

The Navy pilots get all of the time (although most of it is not over the target) because it takes them longer to get to, find, hit the target and find their way back to the boat. The MudEagles show up, ID the target, drop their ordnance (on target the first time) and depart. In and out, quick and dirty. They don't spend time marshalling after the cat shot and marshalling for the boat, and waiting for their turn/time slot to hit the pattern. FLY, FIGHT & WIN...GO AF

 

[XNav]

I'm glad we have the flexibility of options to piss bad news on the heads of any of those assholes no matter where they try to hide and no matter what type of anti-air defense they manage to field. My complements to my former Navy bro's in the fielding, training and use of PGM's (finally). It's nice to see them in the ballgame and getting results, even with the venerable old Tomcat.

As far as the USAF goes, well they do have some nice stuff and it was nice to always have the 14K' of concrete to land on while I was on loan to them. Their Social Actions offices always had really nice furniture in them, too. And the bitches who worked there really seemed to know their shi'ite. They definitely had a positive impact on me. I still don't know why they weren't at home cooking and cleaning, but WTF, a couple of them had super-nice racks.

 

[AlbieF15]

XNAV,

For a Navy guy, you are WAY alright. I likewise had frequent flyer miles with the social actions branches in my neighborhoods. The SA folks were always a bit militant for my taste, but if you look closely at most fighter bases you'll find at least one or two good looking AICs begging for trouble working the ops desk. My favorite stories (with names/dates/locations classified)

Good lookin' gal in EOR pulling pins off F15s. Later married to F15 pilot.

Good lookin' ops desk gal. Has "relations" with several pilots in sqdn, including unmarried senior leadership. Ducking for cover--expecting huge frag pattern any day...but never happens. Instead...marrys another pilot from another sqdn. Collective "sigh" of relief from countless in/around situation.

Of course--we all know that is like pulling the pin out of grenade and waiting for the explosion. Its just a matter of time....

Fly safe,

Albie

 

[XNav]

You know, when you think that the USAF also has bars in the squadrons, which means they have fighter pilots, whiskey and off-limits poon-tang all under the same roof....... I'm starting to wonder why I went to the airlines instead of just putting in for an interservice transfer.

 

[MAJ Matt Mason]

Gentlemen (and I use that term loosely),

Please stick to the topic. If you want to ramble incoherently, start your own threads.

Perhaps you'll pardon me if I write this post in a more personal vein than usual. I want to tell you about some personal perceptions of mine, primarily because the underlying reasons and causes of your dictatorial dissertations must be defined, examined, and resolved, or they'll never cease.

In the rest of my post, I will use history and science (in the Hegelian sense) to prove that you all have a near-legendary lack of common sense, decency, and manners. You should learn to appreciate what you had instead of feeling so oppressed because you can't do everything you want, every time you want to.

You all use a litany of euphemisms, buzz words, and doublespeak to help him flush all our hopes and dreams down the toilet. Now, I could go off on that point alone, but your demands are not an abstract problem. They have very concrete, immediate, and unpleasant consequences. For instance, you maliciously defame and damagingly misrepresent everyone and everything around yourselves. There's a word for that: libel. Some people are responsible and others are not. Most of you fall into the category of "not".

Now that my post is nearly over, I pray that my logic and passion have convinced everyone that it would be a strategic blunder of epic proportions for us to let you back in the ranks, only so that you may once again mete out harsh and arbitrary belly-aching for all to hear, until we're reduced into a benumbed, neutralized, impotent, and non-functioning mass.

Your thoughts are more than welcomed.

 

[Magic]

You're an idiot.

 

[XNav]

You just really aren't very bright are you? You seem to have trouble formulating complex thoughts and even more trouble articulating them. For your sake, I hope you never get RIF'ed. Civilian job interviewers can spot a sorry little twitch like you from a mile away.

Now, Albie.....can you provide a few more details about your SA adventures?

 

[Chunk]

Calling your bluff..

Dave Griffin,

I'm raising the bullsh*t flag on you. Your posts simply aren't believable.

What BUD/S class were you in?

Who was your swim buddy?

You know, there are some websites that hunt down dudes that claim they are things they aren't (they apparently have more time than most people) for example, saying you're a SEAL on an anonymous forum.

Chunk

Proud of my 6.5 years of service, getting out 22MAY02! I don't owe the military anything.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Re: Calling your bluff..

Dave Griffin,

I'm raising the bullsh*t flag on you. Your posts simply aren't believable.

Proud of my 6.5 years of service, getting out 22MAY02! I don't owe the military anything.

Chunk

Chunk;

My comments to Goose17 regarding the curtain in the C-130 Black Bird as well as my comments to AlbieF15 regarding jumping the OV-10 make perfect sense, to anyone familiar with the A/C being discussed. Since you never had the opportunity to support Naval Special Warfare as a crewman in the P-3 or S-3, I can see why you could be in a state of confusion.

Your comments about owing the Navy nothing after 6 ½ years service is exactly the attitude that I find detestable. I have met and worked with many pilots and crew, and the single attribute that distinguishes the good from the mediocre is the spirit of teamwork and single-minded dedication to mission. There is nothing wrong with doing your time and getting out. There is a lot wrong with getting out and bad mouthing the Navy (or Army or USAF or USMC). There was no draft, you alone made the decision to enlist. Quit yer b*tchin short timer.

 

[Focus]

Reviewing some old notes

very well put...I have watched many of your post...The only problem is you never grew up with the lights out on an active duty post. Actually there is alot to be said for that Sir..anyone touches your beer i counsel them, anyone touches your aircraft i kill them...Mr. Military Dependent Rogers....

Speed,

I have worked with a variety of supervisors in my 14 year career, some good, some bad. I'm not there yet, but some pretty smart folks mentioned to me I'd find the same in the airlines, both on the line and in management. By the same token, there are happy airline pilots and miserable airline pilots, and it seems to me about 85% of the difference is attitude.

If you served a day for your country..you did a service that many never do. I don't care if you were dropping bombs, flying cargo, passing gas, or flying DVs around in a C-21...you did what your country asked. I'm glad you were on the team.

I'm also glad you found your niche in civilian aviation. I hope to join you there in 2 weeks. In the meantime--how about remembering a little board etiquitte? I am getting out...I agreed that the grass for me was greener on the outside. However...rants against guys who stay in with terms like "loser" and "too scared to get out" don't do justice to the guys who stay in. Right now there are friends of mine scattered across the globe in some crappy places far from family. They are there to impose our national will on those who would do us harm. They aren't there for the pay...you can't pay me enough to enjoy 120 days away from the family at a pop. (Navy guys do this routinely on cruises) You may think being a well-paid airline pilot buys you security, but another shoe bomb or hijack that doesn't get thrwarted may very well mean more furloughs, airlines going out of business, etc. Especially in aviation, right now your job security is on the razors edge...and the success of our military operations have a direct effect on your economic livlihood. If I were you, I'd be very thankful there are people willing to try to stay in 20-30 years and doing the leadership jobs--making due with much less money than you (and hopefully me soon) will be making, and being greatful for the (often closed) commissary and (overpriced and poorly serviced) Bx/Px exhanges.

Again--I'm getting out...happily! I also saw some non-effective officers and poor policies. I also worked with some of the best people I have ever met. However...I am forever indebted to those guys who stick it out, move every three years, endure the remotes, work the 14 hour days, and, oh yeah, occassionally die doing their jobs. If they weren't there making sacrifices, you can bet the "our Delta is better than SWA who is better than United" BS banter would become moot in about 48 hours.

As always...fly safe. And try to play nice.

Albie

 

[hawg2hawk]

SR,

I'll drop the fighter bravado now that you acknowledge a few good bros still serve...'nuf said.

141 warhorse was a neat bird, too--especially if it took you for 3-5 years to Charleston...not a bad life.

OV-10 was fun, but after assignment night when you get your RIPs andsee "AGOS" you go "WTFO?" You learn about 50% of your job is on theground with the Army as a ground FAC. You know your aren't in Kansasanymore when part of your job description is keeping qualified in theM-16 (and I'm NOT kidding). Let me tell you...the Army REALLY listensto an AF 2Lt when he makes suggestions on using Air Power during anexercise...(NOT!)

My OV-10 bought me several ground TDYs, including REFORGER and HoenfelsTraining Excercise TDYs to Europe. You haven't been cold until you'vebeen a wet, sleeping on the ground, Germany in the winter cold. I neverappreciated the WWII footage of the battle of the bulge until I didthat REFORGER one January.

The airplane was a hoot to fly....sort of a cross between a King Airand a citabria, if that makes any sense at all. Big and turbine like aKing Air, slow and acro like a a citabria. You could stop the plane in600 feet with reverse thrust. Single engine was its only threat...likemany light twins it would roll and its back and kill you if you gotbelow Vmc and ignored your feet. Otherwise...it was a slow, forgiving,fun little plane. (Eagle guys turn your heads away and don't readthis...) and dropping bombs and shooting rockets on the range was ablast.

Now...the other thing the assignment got me was a front row seat withthe Army during the Gulf War. Let me emphatically state I DID NOT FEELLUCKY AT ALL about that at the time. Everyone I knew was flying, and Iwas in a war on the ground, for heaven's sake! I later learned theMarines lost one of their OV-10Ds (and maybe two...any Semper Fi typesknow?) early in the campaign. The airplane was simply not equipeed todeal with the the SA-7/14/16 type threats, and was slow enough to getDRILLED by triple A if you got too low. So...maybe I was in a betterplace on the ground... Anyway...like most USAF OV-10 guys, the goodnews was your ALFA tour was done, you learned a bit about yourself andyour sister services, and you typically moved on to a pretty goodfighter job afterwards. After the war, we flew about another 10 months,then parceled off our planes to the boneyard, the Phillipines,Columbia, Venuzula, and the BLM.

As for the 141...I guess we answered the question "what's the worstthat can happen if we keep flying them another 5 years?" Glad nobodygot hurt...

Fly safe....

One of the guys in my unit asked me the other day what it was like tofly the OV-10. I cupped my ear and said "WHAT?" Greatairplane though.

AGOS. Don't remind me.

You haven't really lived until you check into your first fightersquadron and they hand you a backpack and some shiny new jump boots.Your primary duty: Battalion Air Liaison Officer. Funny how theyfail to mention stuff like that at the UPT drop.

Fun (or at least funny) in retrospect though, and definitelyeducational. No better way to really understand (and appreciate)CAS.

 

[sandman2122]

From DaveGriffin:

I neverlikedorrespectedtheunhappy,shorttimers(4-10yearmini-careers)whoreadilyacceptedtheirtrainingandpaychecks,andthenbitched and moanedthewholetimeabouthow f****dupthemilitaryis.

Dave;

I believe in the novel idea that: "It doesn't matter how long one
serves their country, but how they contribute and perform during
that time".

The "quality" of one's time served far outweighs the quantity........


Signed,

A "happy 10 year mini-career" AF pilot.....

 

[BMD]

Just thought I'd save anyone else from trying to find some idiot named "Matt."

Please tell me that the idiot named Dave Griffin is also a 50's action figure. His opinions are cartoonish. BMD

 

[Dopps]

Please tell me that the idiot named Dave Griffin is also a 50's action figure. His opinions are cartoonish. BMD

Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one...

 

[KarmaPolice]

Maj Mason, you are not an idiot, you are being snide and comical though. You obviously wanted to whip up some emotions on this otherwise benign board.

I'm still waiting for that Hegelian historical and scientific proof. Aren't you employing more of a Socratic dialectic method here, albiet flawed and biased?

It was kind of funny to see the reactions though. The f15 guy's bullying use of his AFSC, the 141 guys trouncing of you, all that (possibly authentic) service before self patriotism.

I went on a trip once with a "mason" and a "speedracer". I had to literally break up a fight in the crew bus. This so much better of a place to work out the differences in opinions, it was a quiet ride back!

On a side note, that 141's wing fell off after the refueling guy forgot to pull the plugs and the tanks exploded from overpressure. 141's could go on for another 50 years!

 

[semperfido]

I knew an asskisser extraordinaire a few years back who would openly say around the squadron that he was praying for a major recession so that all the guys who were going to the airlines would come crawling back to the military begging for their jobs. He was the most unsafe and tactically unsound aviator I ever saw in 10 years of flying Uncle Sam's best. He was also the single most divisive and troublesome piece of trash ever to have any influence within a military squadron. All I can say for him (and for you) is that I hope he dies a slow, painful death with the taste of his own blood in his mouth.

don't hold back......i agree