SWAPA/ATN process agreement update

[Kharma Police]

Geez Kharma, we were specifically told that the exact languange in question was the language that your guys put in there. One small part, not the whole document. So I'll say it again: the part that your lawyers have a problem with is the...part...that...you...put...in...there.

SWAPA is NOT deserving of this statement:



And you know it.

"IF" what your Union says is true, then why would they care if one of our lawyers decided to change a few items in the agreement? The specifics of the meeting entailed that the agreement was subject to review. Why (again) the harsh tone directed at our Union?

 

[Kharma Police]

You say that in jest but I hear we don't even need a process agreement. Maybe Swapa did let you write it all because they don't really care whats in it within reason.

Your lawyers couldn't even write your own language right. I'm curious if your attorneys billed you for the language they insisted on in December and then billed you again when they insisted their own language couldn't stay. This is like watching a train wreck only more sad. Good luck guys, you are going to need it.

I appreciate your sincere concern for our welfare.

 

[ivauir]

The MUTUAL agreement was subject to review by BOTH parties. We just wanted to sleep on it and have another set of lawyers look at it. They found what SWAPA didn't want us to find and all of a sudden (once again) ALPA is the bad guy. Rather than face the membership and say we got caught, SWAPA goes on the offensive and accuses ALPA of dragging their feet and being difficult. Again, CLASSY!!!!!!

Kharma,

This line of thinking would make sense if:
- It was a simple language issue to capture the intent at the table
- The language wasn't inserted by ALPA
- This was December.

To be clear, SWAPA has made no accusations. President Chase issued a simple statement of fact. We are all free to draw our own conclusions.

 

[Skyboy722]

"IF" what your Union says is true, then why would they care if one of our lawyers decided to change a few items in the agreement? The specifics of the meeting entailed that the agreement was subject to review. Why (again) the harsh tone directed at our Union?

Our union doesn't care, and neither do I. But you don't need to attack swapa over this, it was alpa's mistake, and a pretty small, insignificant one at that. There's nothing wrong with fixing a mistake. The only thing amusing here is your refusal to admit Alpa made a mistake at all, and instead attack swapa?

Again, WTH?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Wow. Obviously more silly games from the Trannies.

No way will these pilots groups ever be integrated! I see a preferential interview type scenario happening. It's becoming clear why Southwest is hiring pilots!

 

[Kharma Police]

Our union doesn't care, and neither do I. But you don't need to attack swapa over this, it was alpa's mistake, and a pretty small, insignificant one at that. There's nothing wrong with fixing a mistake. The only thing amusing here is your refusal to admit Alpa made a mistake at all, and instead attack swapa?

Again, WTH?

I have no proof other than an email published by your Union regarding what "they say" happened. Regardless of the reasons, our Union lawyers wanted to make a change and your Union took exception to that fact. I will ask again, if both parties agreed to the fact that the document is subject to review, then why was SWAPA annoyed that we did so? They have managed to sidestep the issue by "saying" that it was our own language that we wanted to change but yet they don't clarify why they had a problem with the change and continue to negotiate in public.

 

[bravodude]

"IF" what your Union says is true, then why would they care if one of our lawyers decided to change a few items in the agreement? The specifics of the meeting entailed that the agreement was subject to review. Why (again) the harsh tone directed at our Union?

Dude, judging by your reaction you really care and thats great but why are you the only one allowed to show any emotion, from your comments the AT pilots should care and we SWAPA should just be lucky to be graced by your presence. Sorry it doesn't work that way, emotions run high on both sides. I used to think you one of the level headed AT guys but I guess I was wrong. You can complain all you want I am done with FI. (AGAIN!)

 

[Kharma Police]

Dude, judging by your reaction you really care and thats great but why are you the only one allowed to show any emotion, from your comments the AT pilots should care and we SWAPA should just be lucky to be graced by your presence. Sorry it doesn't work that way, emotions run high on both sides. I used to think you one of the level headed AT guys but I guess I was wrong. You can complain all you want I am done with FI. (AGAIN!)

I have no issue with the Southwest pilots. I do however have some concerns regarding the tone and tactics of SWAPA, just like many SWA pilots have similar concerns with ALPA. My apologies if I have been overly outspoken and with any perceived negative candor that I might have exhibited.

 

[BlueBlood]

I do however have some concerns regarding the tone and tactics of SWAPA,

As you should....because they aren't representing you, they represent the other side.

 

[On Your Six]

I have no issue with the Southwest pilots. I do however have some concerns regarding the tone and tactics of SWAPA, just like many SWA pilots have similar concerns with ALPA. My apologies if I have been overly outspoken and with any perceived negative candor that I might have exhibited.

Just look at how SWAPA treated the Frontier guys. It's good your lawyers are being careful.


OYS

 

[Lear70]

Squirrel!!!!!

+1



I think I'll wait to find out WHAT, EXACTLY the language was that evidently was deemed offensive enough to throw a wrench in the works for before I decide whether to get irritated or not.

YMMV

 

[Speedtape]

Our union doesn't care, and neither do I. But you don't need to attack swapa over this, it was alpa's mistake, and a pretty small, insignificant one at that. There's nothing wrong with fixing a mistake. The only thing amusing here is your refusal to admit Alpa made a mistake at all, and instead attack swapa?

Again, WTH?

Hmm--Alpa would have only made a mistake had they not corrected the issue. There is always some administrative house cleaning when creating complex legal documents--especially when there is a chess game in progress. If it was no big deal, then why would you care?

There is alot of history that should raise caution for Airtran pilots, who are still represented by ALPA. It started with Muse Air, then Morris, and then Frontier. Has the leopard changed his spots?

 

[ivauir]

+1



I think I'll wait to find out WHAT, EXACTLY the language was that evidently was deemed offensive enough to throw a wrench in the works for before I decide whether to get irritated or not.

YMMV

Lear,

I understand you've got to back your team, but the tone and tactics (thanks Kharma) are worth addressing. Notifying SWAPA through an ALPA Communication to their membership is deliberately provocative.

I truly hope this is a tempest in a teapot, but it is ludicrous that we are still negotiating over how to negotiate ...

 

[Speedtape]

Lear,


I truly hope this is a tempest in a teapot, but it is ludicrous that we are still negotiating over how to negotiate ...

It is not absurd, ridiculous, or laughable! Nor is it a public game. A well constructed bi-lateral transition agreement is a critical piece in maintaining a meaningful, constructive, and orderly process for SLI that follows a time line to reach an end goal. Who would build a house without a good set of detailed plans and a finish line? Is your career not just as important?

This process is the cornerstone for a successful SLI that is equitable for both parties. It requires attention to detail and due diligence. Without a good preliminary agreement, with both parties committed to common goals, the SLI would be a runaway passenger train where no one can get off. Do you want a reserved seat?

 

[FIREMAN]

It is not absurd, ridiculous, or laughable! Nor is it a public game. A well constructed bi-lateral transition agreement is a critical piece in maintaining a meaningful, constructive, and orderly process for SLI that follows a time line to reach an end goal. Who would build a house without a good set of detailed plans and a finish line? Is your career not just as important?

This process is the cornerstone for a successful SLI that is equitable for both parties. It requires attention to detail and due diligence. Without a good preliminary agreement, with both parties committed to common goals, the SLI would be a runaway passenger train where no one can get off. Do you want a reserved seat?

Careful, people around here do not take to logical thinking .

 

[Kharma Police]

Lear,

I understand you've got to back your team, but the tone and tactics (thanks Kharma) are worth addressing. Notifying SWAPA through an ALPA Communication to their membership is deliberately provocative.

I truly hope this is a tempest in a teapot, but it is ludicrous that we are still negotiating over how to negotiate ...

If that was the case, then I agree that it was inappropriate to not give a heads up to SWAPA before disseminating the information.

 

[Lear70]

Agreed.

I'm still waiting for a return call from one of our reps (they're a little busy lately), and they promised a more detailed update to everyone by the end of the day, so I'm reserving judgment 'til I hear just what the **** is going on, but if, indeed, that claim by Chase is true, and that we hadn't tried to get in touch with SWAPA leadership BEFORE we issued that statement to the pilot group, then someone needs a good, swift smack upside the head.

There's always two sides to every story, and hopefully the day will yield more information.

 

[Tripower455]

Just look at how SWAPA treated the Frontier guys. It's good your lawyers are being careful.


OYS

Exactly how did SWAPA "treat" the Frontier guys? Our guys couldn't even get their MEC to return phone calls in the 24 hours or so they had before RAH outbid us on the deal.

I can say with no uncertainty that they'd be "treat"ed a lot better at WN than where they are now, and I'll bet most of them agree with that.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

It is not absurd, ridiculous, or laughable! Nor is it a public game. A well constructed bi-lateral transition agreement is a critical piece in maintaining a meaningful, constructive, and orderly process for SLI that follows a time line to reach an end goal. Who would build a house without a good set of detailed plans and a finish line? Is your career not just as important?

This process is the cornerstone for a successful SLI that is equitable for both parties. It requires attention to detail and due diligence. Without a good preliminary agreement, with both parties committed to common goals, the SLI would be a runaway passenger train where no one can get off. Do you want a reserved seat?

Don't you mean Process Agreement?

 

[scoreboardII]

I'm beginning to realize it's ALPA national that doesn't want the Airtran pilots to get SWA pay now, think about that for awhile.

 

[GuppyWN]

You may be right but the 1700 dues paying Trannies have a voice in their future as well. So far it appears the "silent majority" haven't spoken.......... or don't exist.

If it's a fair deal then let's get it done. If it's going to be drama and lawyers then let's hunker down and take our time. My personal vote is fair and expedient.

Gup

 

[dicko]

You may be right but the 1700 dues paying Trannies have a voice in their future as well. So far it appears the "silent majority" haven't spoken.......... or don't exist.

If it's a fair deal then let's get it done. If it's going to be drama and lawyers then let's hunker down and take our time. My personal vote is fair and expedient.

Gup

You guys are confusing us.

We've been constantly brow beaten into thinking that your goal is to never pay us magic SWAPA dollars. The transition agreement and the interview with your NC Chair emphasize one thing; SWAPA representing AirTran pilots, if it ever happens, will be years away.

Now you're concerned about our speedy remuneration ?

 

[BlueBlood]

Dicko,

You call that brow beating? Do you sunburn easily too?

I am in an interesting spot. Three lifelong friends are at both carrier - two at AT and one at SWA. None of them have any ill-will toward the other group and hope for the best for everyone. With that said, even the AT guys have some significant reservations about their union guys. Not bad stuff but enough concern to not take everything they say seriously. They do like their lead merger negotiator though. The SWA guy says he doesn't concern himself with much of it and feels SWAPA is doing a great job and need little input from him for them to do their job well.

It seems to me from talking to my tranny pals that they are all sensitive and suffer from PTSD. They react emotionally to everything and run around half-cocked all the time. I can understand why they are this way considering their management and constantly having to convince everyone (even their OWN company) that they are worthy.

Hang in there as it appears you future looks better as long as your management isn't a part of it and SWA's is.

 

[ivauir]

You guys are confusing us.

We've been constantly brow beaten into thinking that your goal is to never pay us magic SWAPA dollars. The transition agreement and the interview with your NC Chair emphasize one thing; SWAPA representing AirTran pilots, if it ever happens, will be years away.

Now you're concerned about our speedy remuneration ?

dicko,

That is not the point of side letter eight and you need to re - read the chairman's comments.

To wit: SWAPA is simply protecting SWA pilots, and it takes more than Date of Corporate Closure to be SWA pilots.

 

[dicko]

Dicko,

You call that brow beating? Do you sunburn easily too?

Yes I do burn easily. My hair is the same color as this text and tightly curled like velcro. It's the devils hair.

I am in an interesting spot. Three lifelong friends are at both carrier - two at AT and one at SWA. None of them have any ill-will toward the other group and hope for the best for everyone. With that said, even the AT guys have some significant reservations about their union guys. Not bad stuff but enough concern to not take everything they say seriously. They do like their lead merger negotiator though. The SWA guy says he doesn't concern himself with much of it and feels SWAPA is doing a great job and need little input from him for them to do their job well.

The comments regarding your friends at AirTran are spot on. This is how the vast majority feel. I think.

It seems to me from talking to my tranny pals that they are all sensitive and suffer from PTSD. They react emotionally to everything and run around half-cocked all the time. I can understand why they are this way considering their management and constantly having to convince everyone (even their OWN company) that they are worthy.

Hang in there as it appears you future looks better as long as your management isn't a part of it and SWA's is.

Your post is an excellent characterization of the situation. Perhaps SWAPA's message is misunderstood. It does seem pretty clear to us though.

Cheers

 

[ivauir]

dicko,

The message is very simple:

SWAPA protects SWA pilots.
The benefits of the SWAPA CBA applies to SWA pilots.
SWA pilots enjoy protections even beyond their CBA based on a relationship with management.

To elaborate:
With a fair and equitable ISL there will no longer be AirTran pilots and these benefits apply to us all.

I understand that ALPA has told you that you have these goodies at DOCC, but, through SL8, our management has told you otherwise. Who do you believe?

The most expeditious path to our seniority list is a negotiated one. Your lawyers make a lot more money if it goes to arbitration though, so I predict we'll get the same SLI, but significantly later than we would have through negotiations at a cost of 10 million a month in wages to the AirTran pilots.

 

[ASADFW7]

In my conversations with other southwest pilots I have found that we are just as kept in the dark about the process as anyone else. Any inside info is just chest thumping speculation. Whatever happens to all of us it is more complicated than buying your first house, buying a car, adopting a child and getting a divorce at the same time. Now at SWA there are those who have and sill have legal experience with their 201k or 101k but otherwise I feel for the Airtran group that is reasonable and just in the dark. Cheers

 

[dicko]

I understand that ALPA has told you that you have these goodies at DOCC,

Nobody at ALPA has ever said anything of the sort. Ever. The question has been asked to numerous reps. Including the MC. They have never said DOCC. They have all said a year and a half to two years. Best case.

I'm no fan of ALPA but what you just stated is a complete untruth.

 

[ivauir]

Nobody at ALPA has ever said anything of the sort. Ever. The question has been asked to numerous reps. Including the MC. They have never said DOCC.

Good. Interestingly that doesn't line up with opinions I've seen stated here, on other forums and in personal conversations.

They have all said a year and a half to two years. Best case.

No, best case is significantly sooner.

I'm no fan of ALPA but what you just stated is a complete untruth.

You seem very sure, and certainly you would know, the preponderance on my interaction being anecdotal. You also completely dodged my main point.

 

[Lear70]

Good. Interestingly that doesn't line up with opinions I've seen stated here, on other forums and in personal conversations.

I don't remember hearing anyone on here say that we get "the Southwest goodies" at DOCC. Initially, we were hoping that was the case, but it was very quickly made clear (early Dec I think) that it would likely not be until the SLI was done and integration (cross-training) started for our pilots.

Hope you're right about "significantly sooner", but planning for a lengthier process.