SWA...Too Prepared???

[El Pobre]

Hmmm, just out of curiosity, how long ago were the checkride busts??? With so many qualified candidates applying to SWA (the best airline ever), I would suspect that two checkride busts might be an issue. One, you might be able to pass off as a "bad day". Two....I'm willing to be that raised eyebrows, and I'm not sure that in today's day and age, the liability of hiring someone with two busts might not be an issue.

Just my 2 cents, but if the checkrides were withing the past 4-5 years, it might take a little longer.

EP

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hello guys, I two was shot down but in the process began a facination with SWA. I am a missionary kid, I grew up in the jungles of South America, my parents worked with the Indians. So I looked at SWA as an Culture, a tribe,a group and I started studying it. You can't study for the interview, either you were born one of them or you are not. You can maybe become one of them, like a missionary kid, you conform and they accept you, but if you aren't of their blood, you are not going to make it. The problem is that there are only so many of "them" so they have to start letting others in. Study the book "nuts", and read it and read it again. Study the Bible,yup,John, Romans, I John 1,2,3, this is all ingrained into the unique culture. They want someone who does not study for an interview but is more concerned about the NEXT guy getting the job instead of you. If you are competitive against your fellow interviewer you are not going to make it. They want you to be the kind of person that if there was only 1 postion left and they had to choose between you and the other guy, they want you to say, take the other guy, he needs the job more than myself. I am very competitive, in an interview you are competing against the rest of the world, doesn't work at SWA. I don't think even Judy Tarver understands that, SWA is a totally diffrent airline, and like a tribe down in SA they will fight to maintain their culture the way that it is, they will protect it at any cost. Crazy, but it seems that is the way it is.

Turbo..

great post. the guy that replied to you asked if you were crazy... well isn't that how the book Nuts is titled? Crazy recipe for success?

What you are talking about is Servant Leadership. SWA defines it as a Servants Heart. Also egalitrianism.

If you have always been a servant and egalitarian then you might do fine. If you are just learning about it then maybe not.... If you think these concepts are crazy then you are so far apart from SWA....

 

[TurboS7]

Servant Leadership-what life is all about- the problem with normal airline ops is that people walk all over you. But being a sevant means loving being a doormat. I had other issues that hurt me at SWA, maybe by this summer they will be resolved.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Servant Leadership-what life is all about- the problem with normal airline ops is that people walk all over you. But being a sevant means loving being a doormat. I had other issues that hurt me at SWA, maybe by this summer they will be resolved.

Nice... if you get hired at SWA.... in 20 years it won't matter if it took two attempts...

I would say not to "loving being a doormat" rather not letting how others treat you define who you are... The ability to function effectively in an environment where everyone is trying to draw the life out of you takes alot of character...

Consider working in an environment where everyone is intrested in making sure everyone is doing ok. That takes alot of self confidence and trust of ones own self... If we can elvolve into a culture that operates in such a way we will all do so much better....

 

[JimGlasair3]

Hmmm, just out of curiosity, how long ago were the checkride busts??? With so many qualified candidates applying to SWA (the best airline ever), I would suspect that two checkride busts might be an issue. One, you might be able to pass off as a "bad day". Two....I'm willing to be that raised eyebrows, and I'm not sure that in today's day and age, the liability of hiring someone with two busts might not be an issue.

Just my 2 cents, but if the checkrides were withing the past 4-5 years, it might take a little longer.

EP

During the logbook review in my interview last summer, the guy asked "No checkride busts?" I replied - no. His response: "Well that's unusual!" Still didn't get the job. No one that interviewed that day got the job.

 

[TWA Dude]

I think that understanding the corporate culture of the airline (and catering your answers to it) combined with being a great story teller is the key. Some guys will achieve this naturally and with no effort and others are practically doomed no matter how hard they try. I blew my UAL interview in 2000 because I couldn't tell my stories the way they wanted to hear them. Of course none of this has anything to do with flying their bloody airplanes but hey, it's their show. I did do a short interview prep but it was worthless.

At my AWA interview I was shocked when my stories couldn't answer just about every TAATW question they threw at me. I had no choice but to start my answers with, "This doesn't exactly match your question but it's all I have so I'm going to run with it." By the fourth question one interviewer said to the other, "I think he's going to run with it again!" And we all laughed. So I couldn't answer their questions exactly, I had two long-ago checkride busts, and I even mangled one of their questions about how I'd handle a cargo-door warning light in flight -- yet they hired me. Sometimes the chemistry just works and sometimes it doesn't. The only thing I'm sure of is that over-analysis won't help.

 

[NuGuy]

Hello guys, I two was shot down but in the process began a facination with SWA. I am a missionary kid, I grew up in the jungles of South America, my parents worked with the Indians. So I looked at SWA as an Culture, a tribe,a group and I started studying it. You can't study for the interview, either you were born one of them or you are not. You can maybe become one of them, like a missionary kid, you conform and they accept you, but if you aren't of their blood, you are not going to make it. The problem is that there are only so many of "them" so they have to start letting others in. Study the book "nuts", and read it and read it again. Study the Bible,yup,John, Romans, I John 1,2,3, this is all ingrained into the unique culture. They want someone who does not study for an interview but is more concerned about the NEXT guy getting the job instead of you. If you are competitive against your fellow interviewer you are not going to make it. They want you to be the kind of person that if there was only 1 postion left and they had to choose between you and the other guy, they want you to say, take the other guy, he needs the job more than myself. I am very competitive, in an interview you are competing against the rest of the world, doesn't work at SWA. I don't think even Judy Tarver understands that, SWA is a totally diffrent airline, and like a tribe down in SA they will fight to maintain their culture the way that it is, they will protect it at any cost. Crazy, but it seems that is the way it is.

Heyas,

As much as I am loath to agree with Turbo here, I think he is right on the mark.

Every know a guy who was a complete fcuk up, swept hangar floors but still managed a job in the left seat of a Lear after only a year? Anyone know that complete retard, but he managed to slide through business school with a 2.3 GPA, and now a vice president making 6 figures? Anyone know the guy who is a complete misogynist, treats women like complete sh!t, yet they lined up to bang him?

Some people simply have an animal magnetism about them. People WANT to like them and want to be around them. Lets face it, we'd would all probably want to hang around the cute chick, and not her overweight friend. For some, it's not so much about how you look, but a certain vibe you give off. I knew a guy that could have done those caveman GEICO commercials without makeup, and the ladies couldn't get enough of him.

"Lookism" is alive and well in corporate America. You might have 8000 hours, 5000 PIC in 737s, be of sterling character and have a spottless record, but if you don't have "the look", forget it.

Sometimes, in very technical jobs, this can be overlooked, as long as the people directly doing the job are involved in the hiring (like back with actual pilots did the hiring at airlines). But long as any kind of HR is involved in the hiring process, that's the way it will be.

Nu

 

[:-)]

Servant leadership my b-ewe-double T. I know of one person who never even got to the front door of my commuter because he chewed out the ops secretary when she called him to interview. He was however a quick study. He learned his lesson and was at SWA three years later. I had worked near or around this individual for almost a year prior to the first occurance and I never saw him do ANYTHING remotely related to helping anyone but himself. But, he is intelligent enough to have seen the need to change his spots. This same basic story gets repeated way too often for me accept that the SWA PD has some infallible way to identify "servant leaders".

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I have seen numerous posts about interviewees being too prepared.

I did NOT do a official prep before my first interview in 2004. My wife had lots of experience with the TMAAT questions from working in HR and I practiced with her once. Crash and Burn.

The second time, early this year, I prepped with Judy Tarver. She had pointed out that I was leaving out important details in my story. I decided to spell out the details (ac, seat, city, crew name), and then go through the story.

Of course I have been trying to examine why I got shot down again, and I fear that my way of communicating the situation details first then telling the story was mistaken for being canned or too prepped.

I had an "in" or two, but that made no difference. Who knows?

I am more than eager to work at SWA, and I don't think I was arrogant about my chances...especially the second time around.

I worked within SWA, have a deep desire to work there again, had numerous strong recommendations (some from within the company), one speeding ticket, two check busts years ago, and a history of going out of my way to help people everywhere I have worked.

It is very disheartening.

I know it is. You believe with all your heart that you're the perfect candidate for the job. You do your homework, go in fresh and alert, give 'em your "A" game...and then you don't hear back from them. We've all been there at one time or another, if not in our search for employment, then in our search for romance, admission to the "right" college or post-graduate school, or acceptance into certain social circles.

Sometimes these things work out in ways that you cannot, in your wildest dreams, foresee.

Several years ago, a pilot-friend of mine asked for sponsorship into the company I worked for. Knowing of his qualifications and believing he would be a good "fit" with the pilot group we had at the time, I was happy to do so. He asked me the usual questions about what kind of people they were looking for, what questions might come up during the interview and who might be conducting it, etc. (All questions I had asked of my sponsor some years earlier) Because of his background, his skill as a pilot, and his apparent eagerness to work there, I figured he was a shoo-in for a class date...a "done deal"

Nuh-huh.

A short while later, I asked one of the members of interview committee how he'd done.

"Too prepared" was the response. "It didn't seem fair to the other candidates for him to know about our interview process and to be ready with answers to the questions we'd be asking."

Motivation...preparation...a desire to be a part of the organization. Silly me... I thought those were good qualities to have in an employee...especially a pilot.

And now, the rest of the story...

The airline in question has slipped considerably in status in recent years. It's no longer an "A--B+" place to work. Many of the younger and/or junior crewmembers are discretely keeping applications on file at other, select carriers. And for my friend, it was the straw that broke the camels back. He went on to a very successful career completely outside the airline business. He now flies his own plane, but for pleasure only. He picks his destinations, his overnights, and his "cabin crew."

Keep your chin up. The organization that didn't hire you is, after all, made up of people too. The oversight (if any) in not recognizing what an asset you would have been to them is as likely to be theirs as it is yours. Keep your mind alert, your mental edge keen, and your options (both aviation and non-aviation related) open. Who knows? You may someday find yourself sitting in First-class with a drink in your hand and a beautiful travel companion at your side, thinking, "Thank God I'm not DRIVING this bus..."

 

[AlbieF15]

A short while later, I asked one of the members of interview committee how he'd done.

"Too prepared" was the response. "It didn't seem fair to the other candidates for him to know about our interview process and to be ready with answers to the questions we'd be asking."

Motivation...preparation...a desire to be a part of the organization. Silly me... I thought those were good qualities to have in an employee...especially a pilot.


The irony of that strikes me too. If you buddy walked in and went "...um....er..." they could as easily have said "geez...what we ask isn't a huge mystery....looks like the loser could have done his homework. Guess he really doesn't want to work here...."

No system is perfect. However, I do think a lot of HR folks get jaded to "real" effort after a while. They miss some real winners sometimes...

 

[HarryShadow]

I'm just wondering why people pay $8000+ when you know your chance of getting hired the first time is only 20% max? Someone please explain, serious, no flame bait.

When I got my type rating, SWA wasn't looking at those without!!! So, knowing that I only wanted to work for them, it was an easy decision. I was unwilling to get out of the Air Force UNLESS I had a job with SW (I wasn’t interested in anyone else…personal preference). People spend 10K on junk all the time, but at least I was making an investment…and it all paid off!!! Now that they’ll interview you without the type, I think completing the type only shows your commitment to the company!!! Worst case, you lose 10K…people blow that kind of money on worthless junk all the time!!!

 

[ASA Captain]

More details...

Thank you all for the intelligent discussion. That in itself is inspiring.

The first time, no type. I was one of the lucky few in '04 to interview without the type. I have some prior experience with SWA. I worked for them, a few years back. Without giving away too much info, let's just say I had a very good personal recommendation from a very important person in the company.

Maybe I was cocky the first time around, but I doubt it. I was nervous as heck, and I know at least one thing that almost certainly kept me out of the running. Just a nervous goof, but a big one. I wasn't surprised to get the letter.

While waiting for a second shot, I had the cash and the opportunity to get the type done. I did it and waited for the call. When I did the second interview, I felt much better about the interview.

I am in no way perfect, but I have no idea what they didn't like. No one gets that info. None of my references were ever called (that I know of), but I don't know if they call refs for people who have worked at SWA before.

The thing that is so frustrating is that when I worked for them, I impressed my superiors, got letters of rec from several of them, and drank, ate, and immersed myself in the luv. It is the only place I want to fly. Only people who have been there can really understand, especially working at HDQ.

I am not ignorant. SWA has its own issues. Every company does, but it is the place for me. At least I think so.


About the busts. One was a biggie as an FO, but I learned a lot from it. Mostly how to help (and deal) with a captain having a bad day (we both busted). I busted only non-flying duties. It was a good lesson.

The second was a type ride and ATP. I made a split second decision, obviously the wrong one, to continue a SE ILS when I realized I forgot to bug final ref (20 kt fast) below 1000'. I was thinking it was more risky to do single eng missed than to readjust speed. I never deviated from loc or gs. I landed and was told it was a bust. Stupid decision, I know. But I continued the checkride and everything else was golden. I learned that there are company mins and I will stick to them.

Both were in late 2000. All rides since, SAT.

Again, I ain't perfect, but I have never had any training "issues". I always progress right through training, and I even showed the glowing comments from Higher Power training record to my logbook interviewer.

I hope not to sound like I am whining. I am lucky to be where I am in life. I would be grateful for another chance to be at SWA.

I have no special right to be at SWA. I don't think I am God's gift to SWA or aviation in general. It is very frustrating for me and my family (wife worked there too) , as it is for everyone that looks to Southwest as more than just another seniority list, when you get the dreaded letter.

The frustrating thing is I can only be myself. I don't know how to be anything else. I can learn, grow, improve my skills, and even be a better pilot than I already think I am. I want to do this at SWA. Until that happens, I can only guess as to what they see.


My whiny rant boils down to this: Why does Southwest interview pilots 3, 4, or more time and finally hire them?

It is their baby. They get to protect it however they want. From the outside it is just frustrating. I will keep trying. I hope they like me.

 

[Hagar17]

I'm just wondering why people pay $8000+ when you know your chance of getting hired the first time is only 20% max? Someone please explain, serious, no flame bait.

$8k for a type rating that you can't use anywhere.....

How is that not PFT?

 

[vetteracer]

I think you may have done fine the last time around, but they can be so selective, that there may have been others that were a "better fit" at the time?

Who knows!

I can't even get an interview so feel lucky in the fact you have had 2!

Put your faith in the Lord, nothing else is worth it.

Good luck on #3, it will happen, when the time is right.

By the way ASACAPT, how old are you? I think age may play a larger factor then anyone knows.

PS
2 of the best guys I have met in aviation, a Comair Capt, and a Trans State Capt (At HPA) both interviewed and were turned down. I also fly with a great guy from ATA, nice, personable, great records, got the no thanks letter. That's 3 great guys that have been turned down.

Mark

 

[ASA Captain]

Not old enough to be President of the US. But I look younger still, or so I have been told.