SWA today like the airline in the book, "Nuts!"?

[Just thinking]

"the FACT remains that your group was offering a "Job Fair" to the ATA pilots IF a deal was reached to merge the companies."................

Not so.... Airtran was trying to buy the Midway operation from ATA. (gates etc).... no merger at all. Money that ATA needed to continue operation in whatever fashion they decided. SWA came in and upped the offer BUT included managerial control. SWA had a direct effect in the demise of ATA (cherry picking routes).

SWA offered interviews and took less than 5% of the candidates. Airtran provided a job to a much greater percentage of the pilots that SWA screwed over.

 

[madjack]

My source is a former ATA pilot (now at SWA) who was at the company at the time of the talks between ATA/AAI ...he does not feel that SWA screwed ATA over, in fact the infusion of money kept the company alive longer, sure SWA got what it wanted (gates in MDW) but it paid hard, and much needed cash to the ATA operation...like I said, we should have bought them, but what do I know...anyway my source is adament that the way I describe the talks that took place between the AAI/ATA at the time was that AAI was offering, nothing, not even preferential interviews IF an acq/merger was to happen...he has no love loss for AAI...like I said he was at the company when this transpired and this is his take on how it went down...perhaps this was only talks at the management level, but what I say is what an ATA pilot of that era remembers...

 

[PCL_128]

What you see as working like rented mules others see as an efficient reserve system. At SW reserve is essentially a build-up line where you can fly a lot and make decent money, still with a decent number of days off. At AT, unlike SW, you have a huge percentage of your pilots on reserve which is why better reserve rules are more important. The AT reserve rules are better I will give you that but I would rather have 12% of the pilots on reserve and sub-par rules then 25% of the list on reserve with better rules. The biggest problem with reserve at SW now is that it takes so long to get off of it for the guys at the bottom because the company is not growing. I hope once this integration gets done and things get back under control that growth returns, this will help everyone. That was supposed to be the purpose of this whole deal.

You like reserve because you almost never fly and the extra money isn't worth it to you to have to work more, I get that. The difference between At and SW is that one uses it's crews very efficiently and the other is tremendously inefficient. Obviously some of this is caused by the transition and shrinkage of AT. You have a good gig at AT and I understand that, SW is not a good place for pilots who don't want to work some hard days to make their money.

I also understand your unhappiness at probably having to start commuting if you transition, that is a major QOL reduction and I wish that didn't have to happen to anybody on either side. I can certainly understand that if you don't need the money the hassle may not be worth it. I hope we see the day where there are more bases and/or the increasing of the size of the more popular bases to get as many people living in a base they like as possible. That may be the biggest QOL factor of all and with a single aircraft type SW has some unique opportunities to create a one-of-a-kind basing system if they choose to do it.

A reasonable post, which I appreciate. But I do disagree with your characterization of AirTran's system as being "inefficient." AirTran simply found efficiencies in different ways. For example, utilizing CDOs to to keep completion factor up. The overall operation was obviously quite efficient, seeing as how record profits were being pulled in before the SWA acquisition. You can't measure overall efficiency by looking at the percentage of pilots on reserve. You have to look at the overall average block hours flown per pilot. With that metric, I'd be surprised if SWA was more efficient than AirTran, pre-merger.

 

[HalinTexas]

Konbanwa.

Still living the dream. EX-TZ warrior, here.

At the end of Oct. '04 ATA filed. FL "stepped in" and offered money to keep the company operating for about 6 months. FL was to get the MDW, DCA, LGA operation/slots. No airplanes. Employees were offered pref. interviews. ATA was going to reoganized as a charter ops. in IND. This didn't last long.

Parker/Cactus upped the ante with the help of the same hedge fund that bailed out Cactus, TPG, I think. The employees of ATA, all groups, were pretty d@mn happy about this offer. Synergies and all that. This didn't last long.

"Something" happened in the intervening days this was going to happen. Boeing wasn't too happy, we heard, because Parker only wanted the B75's for ETOPS. Their's weren't certified. He also didn't want to order any B737's since he was a "Bus man." The financing fell through. Herb called up George while he was driving to MDW, this according to George, to offer him a deal. The employee groups were a little deflated, but not disheartened. We knew this wasn't going to be pretty.

John G. Denison was named CEO by SWA, who offered more money and bought about 27% of the company. He cleaned house. Some of it was good, but there wasn't a plan by him, or anyone else going forward. He told a a captain friend of mine that he thought SWA would end up buying ATA, outright, within about 5 years. Still not so pretty.

Many SWA and ATA pilots shared crashpads in MDW. We also commuted quite regularly on each other all over the system. There was never an adversarial relationship between the employees of either airline, ever. We were pretty friendly and respectful of each other.

Now, during 2005 while ATA/ALPA's contract was slowly being gutted, we trimmed/slimmed down. Shed some of the mistakes of the previous administration, and made some new ones, e.g. B737-300s. We also found out that SWAPAs scope was quite specific. All flying by SWA owned entities were to be done by SWAPA pilots. Uh, oh. This was pre-McGaskill. SWAPA pilots made it clear through ALL channels that ATA/ALPA would be stapled. They wanted to do our flying, including the military. I'm just speaking of the pilots now. The other groups just wanted to keep their jobs. ATA slowly pulled out of all markets that we directly competed against SWA, namely Florida. ATA began flying in/out of FL. SWA didn't start until the late '90s. Some of us were quite disturbed by this. I worked the very last flight out of MCO to MDW. I was based there. It was their last day on the job. We were completely full. It was sad.

SWAPA and others in their management wanted out of this deal. SWA made money and learned a hell of a lot about what it takes to operate to various destinations such as ETOPS and Int'l. and LGA/DCA.

SWA went to Mattlin-Patterson to "help" out. ATA was sold out to them at this point, and Subodh Karnik was named CEO. ATA continued the code share. No offers of employment other than an initial 50 pilots in '05 was offered. We were told Herb was involved in this and the next merger with World Holdings.

Airtran initially hired more ATA pilots than SWA. However, I don't think that many of them remained. SWA has hired a trickle of ex ATA pilots since then. I think just as many are at World/NA, Kalitta, and Atlas as are at SWA. Far more have left the country.

SWA bought the ATA cert. in 2008 out of bankruptcy court. Took no airplanes or employees. Turned the cert. promptly into the FAA.

ATA and ALPA litigation against FEDEX, another story, was a dismal failure. I was out about $45K in lost vacation, commute credit, and Warn Act remittences. I'll get nothing.

It's been a hard 5 years for me and my family. My wife was a 24 year FA with ATA. She's out of the business now. I'm beyond it. I miss the people I worked with. Every now and then, like right now, something comes up to refresh what was lost.

My advice? I'll offer it unsolicited. Quitcherbitchin! None of you princesses in the US have any idea how good you've got it if you've haven't lost your job in the last 5 years. I'm on my 5th airlines since ATA, 4th expat job. Although I've flown with a lot of great people outside the US in this time, I'd rather be flying in the US with Americans. I've sat in many a jumpseat of US carriers in my 20 years of flying, and let me tell you, your sh!t does stink! I've seen you fly! None of you can claim to be better pilots/aviators than anyone else out there. Get over yourselves!

Now, back to your regularly scheduled whining. Crybabies.

 

[islandhoper]

Halin Texas,
That is a great post. Thank you for being candid about your ATA experience. In Comparing the AT-SW situation with others like AA-TWA or even better SW-ATA we do feel lucky. I do feel blessed that I still have a job. I guess it is harder to explain, but the feeling I have is that of having been blind sided more than anything. The bitching comes more from the way things happened. I can only compare this sensation with a time a few years back when I was robbed at knife point by 3 teenagers in Brazil. They were not aggressive, but the knife did the talking for them. At the end the feeling of anger for not having been able to do anything was worst than loosing some of my property. I felt lucky to be alive though. ... But yes, at the end, somehow we have to come to terms with these feelings, as we do have jobs with a good company.
I guess we can whine all we want on how bad we have it with this or the previous government until we compare ourselves with Somalia. Then it doesn't make much sense anymore...
Good luck in whatever part of the world you are in.

 

[Ty Webb]

Thanks, Hal. Sorry it worked out that way. ATA was a great airline. I had an application mostly filled out when I got hired at AirTran . . . If it wasn't for those damn essay questions, I might have witnessed the end with you, or at least the beginning of the end.

 

[Whine Lover]

Hal's assessment of the situation, past and present, is pretty much spot on.

I was fortunate after ATA's demise but, I have witnessed some pretty nasty stuff that many of my friends (and their families) have gone through just to keep fighting and living another day in this business over the last 5 years.

In the words of The Great M. Jagger - " You can't always get what you want... But, if you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need."

Be thankful for what you have while still recognizing those who have truly wronged you....and that wouldn't be SWA.

It would be those among your own who thought themselves to be so above the people that they represented that they didn't allow ( until it was too late ) that constituency a say in the direction their lives have now taken.

I'm just sayin' ....


YKW

 

[islandhoper]

Be thankful for what you have while still recognizing those who have truly wronged you....and that wouldn't be SWA.

I disagree. Our lidership mismanaged, but the offer together with the threats came from SWA.

 

[madjack]

Long live the uprising!!

 

[Whine Lover]

"...the threats came from SWA."

I am only a bystander watching from the outside (although my Brother is an AT Captain so I get pretty good feedback from him ) .

Can you refresh me on the "threats" from Southwest?

IIRC, the only "threat" was a promise that the first offer was the best offer and that any other offers would not be as good.

In other words, SWA was trying to do the most expeditious and easiest thing and did not care to negotiate so they gave their actual best offer right off the bat.

Your MEC perceived this as a "threat" and instead of letting the membership decide, they took it upon themselves to say, effectively, "What else ya' got?"

SWA then held up to their word...and did as they promised.

???

Whine