SWA speed control in ATL

[gt1900]

First, settle down before you pop something. All those exclamation points are making me wince.

Second, that's not what Howard said at all. Your reading comprehension blows. You implied that "going fast" was the best or only way to be able to get down in a hurry for a "short final," regardless of the length. He pointed out that was crap, and explained, that at a hypothetical airport, IF cleared for a visual from downwind, then dirtying up first will get you on the ground sooner, contrary to your assertion. He never said that one shouldn't follow ATC directions or that they should just do whatever they want. Nobody on this thread has ever said that, despite your implications.

Next, it appears that the only large airport that you know anything about it ATL. Good for you; now that you work for SWA, you'll see more large and/or busy airports, assuming you don't stroke out first. Guess what?--they all have their particular idiosyncrasies. And the answer isn't always, "go fast!!!!!!" (Did I put enough exclamation points in there?) Is there a learning curve at a new airport? Sure there is. ATC notes issues they find with new entrants, and management puts out memos to ensure all the pilots are aware of them. Pretty much like at every other airline.

Also, despite what's rolling around in what passes for your brain, it turns out that actually, ATC doesn't "hate SWA." I know; shocker, right? They don't "hate RSW across the board," they are not "fed up with SWA," and they haven't "given up on a 6-8 mile final" for Southwest. If you actually pay attention and ask someone other than another pissed-off FAT guy, you'll find that overall, and nationwide, Southwest has a very good reputation with ATC. And this part may also come as a surprise to you, but the average ATC controller doesn't share your SLI angst, doesn't really care if you wanted to be bought, and doesn't blame SWA, SWAPA, or RSW pilots for all the woes in their life. By the way, are you related to FreightdogFred? :angryfire

And finally, "your" is a second-person possessive pronoun. "You're" is a contraction of "you are." There's actually a difference. Hey, maybe you can get someone at Atlanta ATC to explain it to you. :blush:

Bubba

If you truly believe they aren't fed up with us, may I suggest that you don't go to a controllers wedding with a bunch of other controllers who have all had plenty to drink!! If you do, don't tell them you fly for SWA. It will make your life much easier and keep you living in lala land!

 

[HowardBorden]

The FAA doesn't define "short approach". ATL ATC has defined what THEY mean, and it's a 10-12 mile final. Also, ATL routinely issues speeds to maintain spacing. Expect short approach does not alleviate speed restrictions, so even in ATL expect short approach does NOT mean GO FAST!!! Expect short approach in Atlanta means maintain assigned speed and DESCEND FAST!!!

If multiple ATC facilities are queried about what does the undefined term "short aproach" mean at your ATC facility, you will find very few that will equate short approach as a 10-12 mile final.

The hypothetical scenario I described was never identified as Atlanta, because we have already established what a short approach means at that facility. That hypothetical shows that when one truly desires a real short approach which by every English translation I know of means reduce the distance of your approach footprint, the most expeditious way to accomplish that and meet the definition of the FAA undefined term is to slow down, not speed up.

Speed assignments at many airports are routine and not hard to follow. Speed assignments are actually well defined by the FAA. If absent a speed assignment you are CLEARED to perform a short approach, as opposed to expect one, I will immediately slow the aircraft every time because that will allow me the smallest approach footprint. If you choose to define the undefined in a different way, more power to you.

short
adjective - 1. measuring a small distance from end to end.

ap-proach
verb - 1. come near or nearer to in distance.

 

[outerlimits]

If you truly believe they aren't fed up with us, may I suggest that you don't go to a controllers wedding with a bunch of other controllers who have all had plenty to drink!! If you do, don't tell them you fly for SWA. It will make your life much easier and keep you living in lala land!

I was at that wedding, it was a blast

The controllers where upset because some SWA pilots banged half of the wife's at the weeding .


It was a hoot to watch .

 

[j41driver]

There have been numerous bulletins, emails, scrolling MyMobile365 notices, not to mention the 10-7 and SIP notes that all state DO NOT SLOW DOWN UNLESS ATC TELLS YOU TO DO SO.

It's the busiest airport in the world and things run very smoothly when pilots do what they're told. Perhaps if they start violating crews we'll all get the picture. [emoji1]

 

[twepilot]

Well, if I hear a response to a visual approach clearance issued by ATC as "cleared visual 27left, anchors aweigh" I'll know who I'm following...

RV

 

[canyonblue]

ATL, what a joke. Sherman needs to make a return and do it better this time.

 

[PCL_128]

ATL, what a joke. Sherman needs to make a return and do it better this time.

Holy crap, we agree!

 

[Chest Rockwell]

ATL approach would probably fix this with a simple change in phraseology: "...expect a 10-12 mile final." It is only two more syllables.

 

[PCL_128]

Strange how no one else seems to have a problem.

 

[twepilot]

Do us a favor..MOVE.

RV

 

[gt1900]

I agree with PCL. WOW. But he's correct, nobody else has this problem. Well, nobody but SWA and American. BTW. They are going to start treating us like American and the International carriers at ATL. That's straight out of s controllers mouth. They can't count on us to get it right after 2 years of service in ATL.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

They only expect compliance with their non-standard phraseology with carriers that they consider familiar with the ATL slang. ATL is a pretty small nugget in the SWA route structure. Anywhere else on the planet an "expect short approach" clearance would be interpreted as a likely turn inside the FAF. This problem is in ATL approach's lap. They only have to use proper terminology to make it go away. Publishing a secret codebook for ATL ATC is is a poor solution when all they have to do is be clear on what to expect.

 

[PCL_128]

I never heard of a new Delta or AirTran first officer being confused about the clearance. I know I did it no differently in Atlanta than I did in Detroit, Miami, Minneapolis, or anywhere else. "Expect short approach" is really simple: descend as quickly as you can.

 

[gt1900]

They only expect compliance with their non-standard phraseology with carriers that they consider familiar with the ATL slang. ATL is a pretty small nugget in the SWA route structure. Anywhere else on the planet an "expect short approach" clearance would be interpreted as a likely turn inside the FAF. This problem is in ATL approach's lap. They only have to use proper terminology to make it go away. Publishing a secret codebook for ATL ATC is is a poor solution when all they have to do is be clear on what to expect.

"Expect short approach" ISNT a clearance, but I'm sure you knew that! You will never get cleared for a short approach in ATL, and their terminology is 100% accurate! Most pilots would understand what that means when your abeam the field at 12,000 ft with 11,000ft to lose, and about 23 miles to do it. I'm now convinced that ATC knows how our airplanes perform better than we do. Or I should say, they know how they perform with other airlines operating them. Believe it or not, ATC knows that at 12,000ft, with 11,000ft to lose, it's a heck of a lot more than a 3 degree decent with a 10 mile final when your abeam the field. IE: "We are going to give you a decent well in excess of a standard 3 degree decent, and we expect you to be able to do it." Unfortunately, we have proven over and over again that we can not. BTW, ATC will almost never release you for a visual in ATL until they have given you the 30 degree or less intercept to join final. Their clearances are 100% by the book!

When you get violated for speed deviation, let me know who's "lap" it's in! Your not in El Paso anymore!

 

[canyonblue]

I can't believe this is already 5 pages, well maybe 4 pages of that gt1900 doosh and a page full of everyone else. Fock, it's Atlanta, enough said. uke:

 

[Ty Webb]

Maybe Ty Web does not think LAX is busy airport .


Everything out of his mouth is AT this , AT that, AT,AT,AT


He must be a real joy to fly with .

Yeah, that's it.

when I want any sh!t outta you, I'll squeeze your neck. :laugh:

 

[gt1900]

I can't believe this is already 5 pages, well maybe 4 pages of that gt1900 doosh and a page full of everyone else. Fock, it's Atlanta, enough said. uke:

I can't believe it's a thread period! I thought we all knew how to fly airplanes at this point in our careers! And it's NOT just Atlanta! We can figure out how to line up at the right runway in BWI either!!

 

[canyonblue]

I can't believe it's a thread period! I thought we all knew how to fly airplanes at this point in our careers! And it's NOT just Atlanta! We can figure out how to line up at the right runway in BWI either!!

All I can say is go golfing or get a girlfriend, there is more to life than flying. At your rate your not going to pass a medical with high blood pressure. Quit the stressfest man, you seem like a guy who just got his first job at a regional and is overwhelmed by the operation. Work work work work Atlanta work work work work ATC work work work work hotspots.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

"Expect short approach" ISNT a clearance, but I'm sure you knew that! You will never get cleared for a short approach in ATL, and their terminology is 100% accurate! Most pilots would understand what that means when your abeam the field at 12,000 ft with 11,000ft to lose, and about 23 miles to do it. I'm now convinced that ATC knows how our airplanes perform better than we do. Or I should say, they know how they perform with other airlines operating them. Believe it or not, ATC knows that at 12,000ft, with 11,000ft to lose, it's a heck of a lot more than a 3 degree decent with a 10 mile final when your abeam the field. IE: "We are going to give you a decent well in excess of a standard 3 degree decent, and we expect you to be able to do it." Unfortunately, we have proven over and over again that we can not. BTW, ATC will almost never release you for a visual in ATL until they have given you the 30 degree or less intercept to join final. Their clearances are 100% by the book!

When you get violated for speed deviation, let me know who's "lap" it's in! Your not in El Paso anymore!

You are correct and I should have stated "expected clearance."

But,

10-12 mile final is not a short approach. If they used "expect a 10-12 final" or "join final at xyz." Be clear about what you want and most will comply, that is all.

 

[Freebrd]

I never heard of a new Delta or AirTran first officer being confused about the clearance. .

Sooo, you surveyed every new FO at AT and Deltah....commendable.